just got double barreled my a horse

[tazzle]

Yes, can't say I would be too impressed with some idiot waving a whip around in my horses field to try and make him 'leap about in horror'

ETA I can understand taking an extra leadrope or short whip in a field for your own safety but if anyone tried the above stunt in a field with my horse I would be very, very angry. It has taken a long time and a lot of input from my lovely classical dressage YO to make my horse comfortable around whips

the said piece of equipment is not being used as a whip and would not come inot contact at all with any horse

and whirl the 6 ft string on the end around in noisy circles

andl I would imagine that a piece of string making a noise would only be employed if said horse were trying to "mob" aforesaid parelli type person ...... if nedlets are minding their own business or being polite in any interactions there will be no need for any actions at all

the same effect can be gained from twirling a rope, a headcollar or even a a "bagonastick" ..... if it were a non parelli person defending themselves from horses crowding round in an intimidating way with some sort of arm extension or energy creating device would you respond the same way ? .. the leadrope and an orangestick with string are used in the same manner in this instance ..

of course tinypony may have had tongue in cheek at the end of her post, I dont know

 

[Marydoll]

Or you could just drink some tap water, for all the good it will do you

I disagree, Arnica is really beneficial for settling bruising, i use it to good effect on my horses and myself, as does my vet.

 

[rhino]

the same effect can be gained from twirling a rope, a headcollar or even a a "bagonastick" ..... if it were a non parelli person defending themselves from horses crowding round in an intimidating way with some sort of arm extension or energy creating device would you respond the same way ? .. the leadrope and an orangestick with string are used in the same manner in this instance ..

of course tinypony may have had tongue in cheek at the end of her post, I dont know

I like the assumption that I'm anti parelli - my opinion is that the method TP mentioned could be very dangerous in the wrong hands.

In OP's case it sounds like there is only one other horse in the field with her pony (?pair bonding/attachment issues) and I would happily take a short whip/leadrope into the field if I felt it necessary.

TP's suggestion of whirling a rope around in a field with a number of horses seems to be very risky, when you purposefully wind up a group of horses you can never judge how they will react - kicking/barging/running off. I have horrible visions of someone trying this and getting squashed/run over/run through :/

 

[Marydoll]

I like the assumption that I'm anti parelli - my opinion is that the method TP mentioned could be very dangerous in the wrong hands.

In OP's case it sounds like there is only one other horse in the field with her pony (?pair bonding/attachment issues) and I would happily take a short whip/leadrope into the field if I felt it necessary.

TP's suggestion of whirling a rope around in a field with a number of horses seems to be very risky, when you purposefully wind up a group of horses you can never judge how they will react - kicking/barging/running off. I have horrible visions of someone trying this and getting squashed/run over/run through :/

Id go bloody ape if i caught someone wheeing a bloody whip around their head in a field wi my horses in it, especially when they know it'll noise up the other horses but not theirs
How would you feel if you set them off and something came in injured or worse broke a leg skying around because you set them off in this manner.
Not only is it inconsiderate its downright dangerous.
What you inflict on your own horse as training is your business, but its not ok if it affects mine in this manner

 

[Tickles]

Arnica is herbal, but not (usually at any rate) homoeopathic. So, there is some of the 'active' ingredient in there.

I've used the cream on bruised areas over a number of years and *think* I've seen bruises progress faster when treated with it.

Even if just placebo it can make you feel better about them!

 

[tazzle]

well I dont know if you are anti parelli rhino but you did use the word "idiot" in response to the description of what was described , imo that does not infer endearment to aforesaid person /action.


I think that you ( and others) also said a leadrope was acceptable to whirl around in defense if horse(s) are endangering the human and tinypony appears to be saying the same ...... she did not say that she would set out to wind up horses just for the sake of it, just get them out the way. She appeared to be responding to a poster that said she had to go through several fields of horses where she felt a threat existed to her and her horse.

I did not take it that she was advising anyone to actually do it ...... just that if you have trained you own horse that twirling ropes can be ignored you can keep your own horse with you and move others out of the way. In fact she did advise the poster to be cautious and not do it and that further advice specific to her situation was needed by someone that could be on scene !!!


oh btw I am not a parelli fan I just "get" it about using energy to see off bothersome / pushy horses crowding round and possibly threatening human and one horse trying to get in / out and hopefully avoiding injuries.

I dont think inducing terror is on TP agenda ..... of course you will have to check that with TP

 

[rhino]

Ah, but I think anyone doing that in a field is an idiot! And, no, after using voice and body language to back a horse off I would be more likely to give it a skelp than whirl a rope around, in my mind rope whirling = please keep away, having a smack = don't you bl**dy come and threaten me! If it has got to that stage then the horse has already ignored me asking nicely.

ETA that sounds harsh I know, I can't actually think of a time I have ever hit a horse in the field but if it was a case of putting myself or my horse in risk I wouldn't think twice.

 

[tazzle]

Ah, but I think anyone doing that in a field is an idiot! And, no, after using voice and body language to back a horse off I would be more likely to give it a skelp than whirl a rope around, in my mind rope whirling = please keep away, having a smack = don't you bl**dy come and threaten me! If it has got to that stage then the horse has already ignored me asking nicely.

maybe the rope whirling is the intermediate step to a skelp . (oooooh I have not heard that word for years) ..... or maybe there is more than one horse involved so its a general "get off" rather than to one particular horse. ..... or maybe they are not near enough to skelp and she wants them to stay that far away cos they are known to be "difficult" and are on their way

I must admit I would rather head off trouble at the pass than wait till multiple threatening horses are near enough to do me damage ( and if they are near enough to skelp then they are ) ..... oh boy all this dicussion is making me sooooooooo glad that in my "later" years I no longer have to deal with issues like this and be thankful for our settled little herd where the only danger is getting "lipped"

 

[rhino]

Luckily it's been a few years since I had to deal with anything particularly difficult in this respect either, and last one was purely due to a useless owner (who also ran the yard )

Her NF was a bargy little git at the gate but woe betide you accidentally let him out. He injured a few of the kids who kept their ponies there or who were workers but the stupid owner still used to put her feedbucket in the yard and then just open the gate and let her horse through to feed it - and couldn't understand any correlation between this and his behaviour

 

[baymareb]

The bottom line to me on all of this is that I really don't care whether or not a horse feels he has a reason to kick, or whether he's trying to kick the person or the other horse. As far as I'm concerned, kicking when there are people around is simply unacceptable.

Case in point - my daughter and I were riding together a couple of weeks ago. We were going past a shelter where 2 of the farm workers were working on the roof. The horses were both a little spooked by it and my mare was dancing a bit. My daughter's horse went behind her in order to be further away from the scary stuff, my horse felt him back there and added a sort of bucking kick to her repertoire of twirling and snorting. It caught my daughter on her leg and she ended up with 8 stitches and a lot of bruising - had it hit just a bit more directly on her shin, it probably would have broken her leg.

My mare kicked because Sparky had startled her. I know that. Nevertheless, I immediately barked at her. Because I don't care if she was startled - she has no business kicking out when people are in close proximity. To me, it's just as simple as that. It may be a case of putting human values on horses but she's living in a human world and is quite capable of learning the boundaries.

I think understanding your horses thinking and ways of communication is a very good thing but there are certain things that are just non-negotiable as far as I'm concerned. Kicking is one of them.

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

Re whip in fields. I don't carry one now as I have 5 and 3 are homebreds. But along the years, especially when growing up, there were manners to be had such at times of feeding in a group situation. Used to have a lot more horses and in a group of youngsters I'm not getting run over at feed time. So I had a dressage whip. Unruly youngsters got a light smack on the chest. After that nobody seemed inclined to be an idiot. They waited by pots patiently. There is always going to be an order amongst themselves so I know roughly how they order is going to be. Last year my then 4 and 6 year old took leave of their senses and were bucking, kicking, and rearing as I was trying to come in to feed. Climbed back out, went and got the dressage whip and they only just saw that I had it. They each went to their pots and waited patiently.

So I'm guessing that is also the reason I don't have issues going into fields and getting who I need when I need them. There is no flailing of the whip, there indeed is no whip anymore. But horses aren't stupid. They know what's expected of them if you establish this in the first place. But if I were in a boarding situation and had to get one of mine out with a mannerless git

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

Sorry, pushed send. If I had to get one out with a mannerless git in the field, then I would bring my dressage whip as only if needed protection for me or my horse. But chances are I'm going to be in a situation like that. Pookie's owner would have some indication her horse was at fault but will never see it that way and I can't have me or my horses in that situation. There is one here and I just don't have time in my life to deal with people and their "special needs" horses. That meaning horse has zero manners because the owner won't hurt Pookie's feelings. Luckily I rent the land my horses are on.

Terri

 

[HeatherAnn]

In response to the people saying that they would go mad if someone shooed their horse away with a whip. Surely you wouldn't want anyone getting hurt bu your horse, and if someone needs to twirl a rope or something like that, because your horse was being bolshy, wouldn't that be preferable to someone getting kicked or trampled. I understand the part about not wanting a horse to fear the whip, that's common sense, but to say that you would be annoyed if someone shooed your horse away for their own safety is a bit daft IMO

If I thought someone's horse was going to do this to me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmVvSJmlW0Q&feature=related then I'd take a rope out and shoo every other horse away.

 

[rhino]

In response to the people saying that they would go mad if someone shooed their horse away with a whip.... to say that you would be annoyed if someone shooed your horse away for their own safety is a bit daft IMO

But if you actually read the thread I don't think anyone has said that... In fact I stated:

I can understand taking an extra leadrope or short whip in a field for your own safety

However, what I do think is a bad idea is TP's suggestion:

to stand next to their horse while holding their orange stick aloft over both of their heads and whirl the 6 ft string on the end around in noisy circles. Their horse will stand happily under this while the rest of the herd leap about in horror. Effective though it may be, for some reason it pisses other owners off no end.

Which marydoll and I both seemed to think would be more likely to get either the handler or one of the horses seriously hurt

 

[tazzle]

I think we ought to ask TP to clarify but the wee smilie and the fact that I know her leads me to believe she was not entirely serious that it is her intention to fill horses with terror or annoy the humans ( well not unless they were about to trample all over her ... horses or humans )

 

[rhino]

I have seen enough of TP's posts to know that she gives out great advice; IMO whether it was said in jest (as I suspect it was) or not, putting it on a thread posted by a worried (and injured) poster was not the best idea in the world

 

[HeatherAnn]

but if anyone tried the above stunt in a field with my horse I would be very, very angry. It has taken a long time and a lot of input from my lovely classical dressage YO to make my horse comfortable around whips

I misread what you said sorry. I thought that this was all that was said

 

[Tinypony]

In reply to original op I said this:

"Even an "aggressive" horse will give some warning of what's coming. The problem is that we can miss it, and also the warning can be quite brief.
The severity of the resulting damage to the human tends to be applied to the horse's personality. So if the horse just shoves it's "cheeky", if it nips it's "naughty" and if it makes contact with hooves it's "aggressive". Whatever, this horse felt a need for either op or her horse to move and they didn't. It is hard sometimes when one horse in a field is getting attention (and maybe a treat or two) and the other horse isn't.
As others have said, I wouldn't leap to the conclusion that this is a nasty horse, I'd change the way I managed the situation so that I avoided the situation again. 4 year old child in an enclosure by the gate, never in the field with you and more than one horse. Catch up your horse and take it to the enclosure for fuss and the sort of slow stuff that you do with a 4 year old at your elbow. Also, take something like a spare leadrope into the field with you and use that to spin at the other horse to ask him to stay away (with the clip in your hand) - right from the moment you go into the field. Get into the habit of asking this horse to keep it's distance when you're dealing with your own horses. I see so many people catching or otherwise dealing with their horses while others crowd in around them. There's no need to do that and it's likely to cause problems."

Then when someone suggested that they would maybe apply that advice to a situation where they were needing to lead their pony through fields with other horses in I said this:

"(I just wanted to pick up on this reply to my post).
Oldnag, that could be quite a tricky situation you're dealing with. If you're dealing with larger numbers of horses, that aren't normally living in the same field as your pony, just be careful. It's one thing to send one pushy field companion away, another to sort out a group of them milling around you. I'm pretty confident of my advice in Op's case, where there are two horses involved that are used to each other. In your situation I'd be more cautious and probably want to see what's happening before trying to help you.
Anyway, stay safe. "

Then - with a little wink and a grin at the end and in a separate post I said this:

"p.s. I can't help sharing a thought that just came into my mind. "Parelli People" tend not to have problems with getting mobbed when dealing with their horses in the field. As a result of intensive "Friendly Game" sessions they are often able to stand next to their horse while holding their orange stick aloft over both of their heads and whirl the 6 ft string on the end around in noisy circles. Their horse will stand happily under this while the rest of the herd leap about in horror. Effective though it may be, for some reason it pisses other owners off no end. " There was a clear one of these at the end

- which is a wink and a grin last time I looked.

The last post above doesn't suggest in any way that anyone should do this, and yes, it was tongue in cheek because I know what reaction the mention of the word Parelli has on this forum.

Having said that though... In similar threads I have seen people recommending that people go into fields armed with lunge whips to fend off groups of horses, which would be a pretty similar and also fairly dodgy approach.

 

[Marydoll]

In response to the people saying that they would go mad if someone shooed their horse away with a whip. Surely you wouldn't want anyone getting hurt bu your horse, and if someone needs to twirl a rope or something like that, because your horse was being bolshy, wouldn't that be preferable to someone getting kicked or trampled. I understand the part about not wanting a horse to fear the whip, that's common sense, but to say that you would be annoyed if someone shooed your horse away for their own safety is a bit daft IMO

If I thought someone's horse was going to do this to me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmVvSJmlW0Q&feature=related then I'd take a rope out and shoo every other horse away.

Twirling a rope is different to a whip, and yes i would be bloody annoyed if some idiot was waving a whip around my horse or anyone elses, and you may think people with opinions like mine are " daft" but id have to say i have the same opinion about afew things youve posted on here

 

[HeatherAnn]

Twirling a rope is different to a whip, and yes i would be bloody annoyed if some idiot was waving a whip around my horse or anyone elses, and you may think people with opinions like mine are " daft" but id have to say i have the same opinion about afew things youve posted on here

I actually said:

I understand the part about not wanting a horse to fear the whip, that's common sense, but to say that you would be annoyed if someone shooed your horse away for their own safety is a bit daft IMO

I completely understand that you wouldn't want someone to use a whip. I actually misinterpreted someone else's comment and thought they wouldn't want anyone shooing their horse full stop

 

[OldNag]

(I just wanted to pick up on this reply to my post).
Oldnag, that could be quite a tricky situation you're dealing with. If you're dealing with larger numbers of horses, that aren't normally living in the same field as your pony, just be careful. It's one thing to send one pushy field companion away, another to sort out a group of them milling around you. I'm pretty confident of my advice in Op's case, where there are two horses involved that are used to each other. In your situation I'd be more cautious and probably want to see what's happening before trying to help you.
Anyway, stay safe.

Thank you. In her field she's one of three and I don't get any problems there. It's mostly a new pone in the field we walk thorugh, he has taken to following very closely, too closely for my mare's liking! (He's not aggressive, I think just nosy) The other day she made her thoughts quite clear so they both squealed, then the neighbouring field horses wanted to see what the excitement was and there was some general cantering about and squealing... it all got quite scary to be honest.

Where possible I'm trying to get someone to go with me, but it's not always going to be practical. If I can persuade this new pony that sticking his nose on my mare's bum isn't a great thing to do, I'm sure that will help! The others in that field have up to now ignored us.

 

[Tinypony]

That makes sense Oldnag. Well, the key in my opinion is to not let the other horse get too close in the first place if you can. Once they come in close you can get hurt as you try to send them away. If you can keep them a safe distance away in the first place it's easier. Good luck with it, it's no fun being scared in this way.

 

[Marydoll]

Ah, but I think anyone doing that in a field is an idiot! And, no, after using voice and body language to back a horse off I would be more likely to give it a skelp than whirl a rope around, in my mind rope whirling = please keep away, having a smack = don't you bl**dy come and threaten me! If it has got to that stage then the horse has already ignored me asking nicely.

ETA that sounds harsh I know, I can't actually think of a time I have ever hit a horse in the field but if it was a case of putting myself or my horse in risk I wouldn't think twice.

I need a big fat like button for this

 

[eirewhisper]

With my horses I am the herd leader

^^^
This

 

[fburton]

Eirewhisper - Do you think horses see you as another horse?

 

[eirewhisper]

Eirewhisper - Do you think horses see you as another horse?

I dont know what they "see" us as-I just think they're intelligent enough to learn (as they would with the herd-leader/higher pecking order) what is and what is not, considered acceptable i.e. a mare disciplines her foal and he learns not to do whatever it was she did not like.

(I had gone back to add more explanation to my first post but it wouldnt let me hence the rather cryptic message)

 

[amandap]

I have been led to believe it is no longer considered ethical to chase or send off a horse in any circumstances except emergency. Waving sticks or ropes must also be a no no after all the outrage about Parelli I've read.

I walk amongst my herd of six numerous times a day even in confined spaces, I know them, they know me and we have 'rules' and ettiquette we all adhere to. Going amongst herds that aren't stable or where you don't have a rapport with all the horses is always going to be a risk especially if you have no idea of the horses relationships amongst themselves... You MUST be aware of all horses at all times, think ahead and don't put yourself in a compromised position. If one horse is always causing a problem that could easily lead to danger then imo two humans should always go in, one to observe and one to retrieve the required horse.

That's my Sunday sermon.

 

[fburton]

I dont know what they "see" us as-I just think they're intelligent enough to learn (as they would with the herd-leader/higher pecking order) what is and what is not, considered acceptable i.e. a mare disciplines her foal and he learns not to do whatever it was she did not like.

I agree they are able to learn from us what is and is not acceptable to us, as you say - just as they can learn that from other horses. What I am questioning, though, is whether herd dynamics has to come into their dealings with us at all. Surely they can learn by associating behaviours with consequences, e.g. reward or punishment? For that, it doesn't matter whether they consider us as another horse, some other creature, or even as an object that happens to move (they don't have to see an electric fence as another horse in order to learn to avoid touching it and to "respect" it). Do horses think electric fences are dominant, or simply as something they shouldn't walk into? Actually, I believe horses are intelligent enough to tell the difference and recognize we're in the "some other creature" category rather than another horse or an object!

Therefore, I don't see any merit in trying to convince a horse of our credentials as a true "herd leader" (whatever that is) - or even to think along those lines.

On the other hand, there are certain leadership qualities that are valuable and desirable to possess in order to gain horses' cooperation and to work effectively with them. It might be a useful exercise to list them. But having those qualities - they are what make a good horseman, in fact - is not the same as horses actually thinking we are the herd leader. I think they're far more discerning than to do that!

 

[Tinypony]

"Originally Posted by rhino
Ah, but I think anyone doing that in a field is an idiot! And, no, after using voice and body language to back a horse off I would be more likely to give it a skelp than whirl a rope around, in my mind rope whirling = please keep away, having a smack = don't you bl**dy come and threaten me! If it has got to that stage then the horse has already ignored me asking nicely.

ETA that sounds harsh I know, I can't actually think of a time I have ever hit a horse in the field but if it was a case of putting myself or my horse in risk I wouldn't think twice.

I need a big fat like button for this"

No, rope whirling means keep away. Come too close and the end of the rope will "skelp" you. Rather than go after a horse with either a stick or my hand to smack them (hand meaning they've got far too close in my opion), I would just keep spinning the rope and if the horse walks into it they might get skelped. It's not a big deal really, catch up a horse and if another is heading in at 3 o'clock with a determined grimace on it's ears I'll spin the free end of my leadrope in their direction to discourage them. Which it normally does. What a lot of fuss over the fact that people do things differently, one spins a rope, another has a shout and maybe smacks a horse... so what?

The thread started with op getting double-barrelled by a horse. In which case i would not recommend that op considers smacking said horse if it comes in to close again. I would recommend that op does something that discourages the horse from getting too close in the first place.

I will state AGAIN that I did not recommend that anyone follows the "parelli model" I mentioned in my light hearted post with a grin at the end. Sigh.

 

[amandap]

A rope or a stick is an extension to keep a horse at a safe distance where necessary. If a threatening horse is close enough for you to 'skelp' it you've put yourself in a very vulnerable position imo. Horses have a much bigger reach than us so you must think ahead if you suspect 'trouble'. Keeping a threatening horse at a safe distance is essential to ensure your safety.

Imo these situations and horses behaving in this way regularly need the whole yard sorting out a cohesive plan to make the situation safe and better for the horse. It's no good owners getting defensive or others blaming a horse it's a yard problem imo and everyone should work together to solve it.

Just putting in general comments here not specific ones.