Just how badly are we feeding our horses?

firewell said:
Ok, im confused (please bare with me ;) ). If oats and barley ect are fine and natural to feed horses, then why does research say that grains and starch are bad for horses? How come they cannot be digested properly if they are meant to be good? I do get confused by oil as well because I don't really think horses eat oil in the wild..
Click to expand...

My guess is that horses in the wild would only eat seeds when they are in season, and they would be eaten with the long stalks of grass that accompany them, so I wouldn't imagine horses would eat many wild oats, even in season, compared to what they are fed today.

Cereals in their raw unprocessed form aren't very nutritionally available to the horse, and due to the structure of the horse's digestive system, many of the nutrients in them wouldn't be absorbed - that's why we have cooked and rolled and otherwise processed horse feeds, because feeding them the way nature provides isn't very economical to the horse owner. The trouble with processing them is that suddenly all this starch IS available to the horse - and if fed in high quantites and/or in an unbalanced diet, can upset the fermentation of fibre in the horse's hindgut. Fibre is what the horse has evolved to live on, and a diet lacking in fibre has welfare issues such as stereotypies/vices and ulcers.

There is some oil in many of the feedstuffs the horse would eat naturally, and the horse has been found to cope quite well with diets containing a reasonable amount of plant sources of oil (up to 20% I think, if my memory serves me correctly? But if you feed over 10% good luck convincing your horse he wants to eat it...).

The arguement for feeding horses higher amounts and different types of things which wouldn't occur in the horse's natural diet, is because we ask him to do more work and to live a lifestyle which he wouldn't do in the wild. Therefore, research (partcularly that funded by the racing industry, which has a high level of demand from the horse's diet, and encompasses a high % of research which goes on that you and I benefit from eventually. Its not perfect for leisure horse owners, but better than being based on cows, which some recomendations for horses still are! Again, we are making best guesses based on the available research, which is dictated by who will fund what, and funding is usually only available if there is a commercial interest) tends to look at what the horse will tolerate, rather than whether it would occur in nature. It seems to have come full cycle now and people are starting to think about the full effects of feeding, and many are coming back to trying to have as natural as possible a diet for their horses.

Personally, I'd rather people fed a feed based on feed company recommendations (which are usually based on some sort of knowledge and research), rather than do something "more natural" if they don't know their equine nutrition. I think the evolution in feedstuffs is a good thing, and as with anything else, we can't all be experts but as horse owners we have a responsibility to educate ourselves as far as possible, and to make the best decision we can for our individual horses.
 
I feed as naturally as I can, I learnt from my last YO.
The YO I used to work for would not feed her horses anything other than:

Chop
Bran
Barley
Oats
Sugarbeet

(Obviously not all at once! She had 3 horses who had different mixtures of these things. They were all on oats and chop though)

The only suppliments they got were:
Linseed
Seaweed
Cod liver oil
Garlic
Multi vit
(Again depending on the horse, not all at once)

Her horses ranged from a 4 year old mare, a 19 year old gelding and a 23 year old stallion, they all looked fantastic, they were never overly hot headed to ride. She wouldn't even let them see a pony nut! Any of these mixes and nuts you get now were as good as poison in her eyes!

I think people feed way too much of expensive feed now a days because of the adverts and promises the feed companies give you. I mean if I fed my mare say Leasure mix, at the reccomended amount for her work and her hight.. or even pony nuts..

1) I would be broke
2) She would be the size of a whale
3) We would be in the next village :eek:

I understand some horses do go well on these feeds. But what would they have done 20-30 years ago?!!
 
firewell said:
Ok, im confused (please bare with me ;) ). If oats and barley ect are fine and natural to feed horses, then why does research say that grains and starch are bad for horses? How come they cannot be digested properly if they are meant to be good? I do get confused by oil as well because I don't really think horses eat oil in the wild..
Click to expand...

I sometimes wonder how they do their research - how many horses do they use and what breeds and what occupation are they in. I think a lot of their research is done using the racing industry and then downsized to suit the rest of the equine race.

I also wonder if the researchers have ever actually owned a horse! or truly worked with them - what is their knowledge of the horse itself, how it responds to the food it's given. I once worked with a girl who held a top level position at the stud I was working at, she had a zoology degree and six months at a local Equine Polytech! Here she was bitting the young TB's and telling me, who has worked for decades with horses, that I couldn't bit them in case I damaged their mouths - I wasn't even allowed to treat a small cut! Add the word degree and the person is an expert on ALL animals.

I prefer to trust what our fore fathers taught us - people who's whole lives revolved around the horse. They relied on the horse - they have looked after horses for thousands of years. They do truly know how horses tick. I used to have acccess to the most wonderful books with amazing anatomical drawings the likes of which you will never find in modern books. Every part of the horse was covered, had been dissected and completely recorded.

Traditional tells us Wheat is not good for horses - yet it is in just about every processed feed you can get. Bran, Broll, Pollard what ever it's called in different coountries. It's phosphorus levels are too high and it contains a phytate that inhibits the absorption of Calcium. So why does it form such a great part of the commercial feed? - because it is cheap!

In some countries horses do eat coconut, in South America there are horses that suffer tooth decay as they are fed on a staple of sugar cane.

I learnt my HM from an ex Cavalry Officer, from people who had been raised with horses prior to the 2nd world war. How many of you can remember the milkmans pony or the rag and bone man withhis horse and cart. I can just but a vague memory.
 
Last edited:
God I never thought of wheat as bran, lol making myself seem really blonde here! I mean I know bran depletes calcium but then I read wheat feed in the horse feed but just don't put two and two together! :o
 
Lol Damnation, I have to say I've never fed more then half a scoop of fibre nuts, pony nuts, leisure mix or whatever for the same reasons! I would be poor and probably eating dirt lol, I've always just topped it up with a balancer or something :).
I
 
After having an allergy panel done on my ISH mare I am left with very few feed options

Alfa A, Alfa A Oil, Speedibeet, Plain Oats, Barley and Propell.

Actually that is quite a lot now I look at it :) Wheatmeal and Soya Bean/oil and Timothy have cut out all the proprietary mixes and most chaffs.

She is doing just fine on it. I add things in and take them away as necessary.
 
Apologies as I have only had time to skim read so may have missed it, but is there a website that gives information about starting to feed straights?
 
RE the calcium to phosphorus ratio, its also worth remembering that grass and/or hay/haylage can often have a high calcium level, which may end up balancing the two. Depends on the underlying rock in your area, and if the soil is limed.

Complicated, huh? :p
 
Very interesting to read, although sometimes too much information can be confusing :p

I have just changed Bill onto straights, he was showing a slight intolerance to wheat so back to basics for him for a while :)
He gets maize, oats and barley, some chaff and fibre-beet.
He lives out 24/7. Before anyone tells me he dosen't need fed, he is 17hh, growing, in work and eventing at the low levels! He does need fed - but just not on mixes atm ;)

He also gets a vit supplement to make sure his feed is as balanced as I can make it!

What I don't get, is why so many people say that oats are bad for a horse, when they have been fed for centuries with no (or maybe just no documented) ill effects?
Why do people not like feeding barley?

As I said, very interesting to read, just now need to ask a few questions! :)
 
broke_but_happy said:
Apologies as I have only had time to skim read so may have missed it, but is there a website that gives information about starting to feed straights?
Click to expand...

There are details in the Pony Club Manual and also in Book 7 Watering and Feeding - The Manual of Stablemanagement a BHS book which is very good if you can find a copy.

Feeding straights is not too difficult - I find it far easier to adjust for the differences in individual horses feeding straights.

And I save heaps of money too!
 
Only-me I would be very interested to hear how you get on. Wether you notice any differences positive or negative :). I think it's very interesting.
 
firewell said:
Only-me I would be very interested to hear how you get on. Wether you notice any differences positive or negative :). I think it's very interesting.
Click to expand...

Will do :) He has been on it for 2 days now, will probably take about 10 days before I can notice a difference i think :)

I'm quite lucky as I can get straights straight from the feed mill 2 mins up the road! :p
 
All very confusing to me. So say i started feeding straights. This would just be a maintence feed in winter as our grazing is quite poor. He's a steady eater and will eat his dinner throughout the night instead of in 5 seconds. So if I fed a chaff such as hifi, oats and sugarbeet. Thats all my horse would need?
Hes fed on a mix at the moment only as he needs bute due to his hocks (these are being surgically fused tomorrow so wont need this soon hopefully)
 
Evelyn said:
ITraditional tells us Wheat is not good for horses - yet it is in just about every processed feed you can get. Bran, Broll, Pollard what ever it's called in different coountries. It's phosphorus levels are too high and it contains a phytate that inhibits the absorption of Calcium. So why does it form such a great part of the commercial feed? - because it is cheap!

.
Click to expand...

Ah the Bran myth. Firstly Bran isnt cheap so is rarely used in compounds. secondly the research I have studied does not show that it inhibits Calcium absobtion,it merely has very little in it. A wheat rich diet will be low in calcium if it is not suplemented. The phytins in so many feedstuffs are already bound up and its not due to any effect they might have, the problem is that the digestive system finds it difficult to break down the phytins and release the mineral they are ALREADY bound to. In the case of Bran ,they are as Phytic Phosphorous and research suggests that up to 70% of the Phosphorous (which everyone gets worried about) is in fact unavailable. In fact when compounds are formulated to give the "correct" Ca /P ratio phytic phosphorous is usualy forgoten (because it is feindishly difficult to calculate) .The result is that a lot of feeds are in practice loaded with TOO MUCH calcium ,to ballance Phosphorous which is actualy unavailable
 
Haven't read through all of the thread here as there was too much to distract me in most of the replies. Lol at some of the comments

'Feed companies have a lot to answer for'! PMSL No - OWNERS have a lot to answer for. This is the equivalent of blaming McDonalds for your fat children.

Also - the reason that there are more 'diseases' in horses are not because of commercial feeds, rather they are because of better diagnosis & understanding and of care - horses living longer WILL get more diseases.

Anyway - don't get my started. If you want to feed your horse correctly and/or are concerned about it, speak to an impartial nutritionist (there are lots of them around ;-) ) don't blame feed manufacturers for your own lack of knowledge.

The article *could* be quite good as it is an interesting debate - however it comes across as an utterly one sided lynching of the commercial feed industry. It is badly written & not doing SS any favours there if that was their intention. Shame.
 
AS I am really enjoying this post and finding it interesting, I emailed the link to some friends. Here is a reply from one of them who isn't a HH forum member.

Quote "I read this the other day. I also read the page linked to in the first comment. Or that is, I got to the second paragraph where she talked about stored toxins. What is the endocrine, lymphatic and circulatory system for if it is not to evacuate toxins. This notion of detoxing is nonsense.

Very few toxins are accumulative - ragwort is the most known about, other toxins: vitamin A and D are found in fat, but are not stored . . .

If we were to feed our horses in an anthroposophical way, then we certainly wouldn't feed ryegrass for starters. (50% of most sward is made up of perennial ryegrass).

We have domesticated the poor animals and then we get on board them (did you know that in the BHS Stage 3 book it says that the Latissumus Dorsi Muscle is to carry a rider?????). We can only feed them to the best of our knowledge, our anthropomorphic ideals and to what suits us in terms of price and availability.

Maybe we should have our own forum? And who are these people who answer on the forums? What are their qualifications?

Comments . . . " end of quote

So - what do you all think?
 
I totally see the point of this thread and agree wholeheartedly and yet my fatty 15.1hh mare and lami prone welsh 18 yr old look the best they ever have including their feet on very poor restricted grazing at night, straw and no grazing during the day, and top spec antilam and a handful of top chop lite. I'm reluctant to change to feeding no hard feed because I don't believe they will get enough vits and min from straw and minimal grazing. I feed straw to provide roughage and fibre - I did feed hay / soaked hay but even on a tiny amount they were increasing in weight and not getting enough fibre during the day and getting bored.
 
Mike007 said:
Ah the Bran myth. Firstly Bran isnt cheap so is rarely used in compounds. secondly the research I have studied does not show that it inhibits Calcium absobtion,it merely has very little in it. A wheat rich diet will be low in calcium if it is not suplemented. The phytins in so many feedstuffs are already bound up and its not due to any effect they might have, the problem is that the digestive system finds it difficult to break down the phytins and release the mineral they are ALREADY bound to. In the case of Bran ,they are as Phytic Phosphorous and research suggests that up to 70% of the Phosphorous (which everyone gets worried about) is in fact unavailable. In fact when compounds are formulated to give the "correct" Ca /P ratio phytic phosphorous is usualy forgoten (because it is feindishly difficult to calculate) .The result is that a lot of feeds are in practice loaded with TOO MUCH calcium ,to ballance Phosphorous which is actualy unavailable
Click to expand...

Interesting Mike - here in NZ Bran is really cheap and in everything composite. What I find worrying though about this research is that in the past Bran was the cause of Millers head, what explains this if the phosphorous was not accessable by the horse. The calcium depleted bones were Yet then bran actually had flour in it compared to modern bran which would give us a far higher phosphorous loading than bran in the past.

Nutritional Secondary Hyperparathyroidism (Bighead, Bran disease):
Horses of all ages fed grass hay or pasture and supplemented with large amounts of grain-based concentrates or wheat bran are most likely to develop relative or absolute calcium deficiencies leading to nutritional secondary hyperparathyroidism. Excess phosphorus intake (Ca:P ratio <1.0) causes the same clinical signs,. Blood concentrations of calcium do not reflect intake due to homeostatic mechanisms, though blood inorganic phosphorus may be elevated due to mobilization of bone mineral content. Serum alkaline phosphatase activity is usually increased, and clotting time may be prolonged slightly. Young, growing bone is frequently rachitic and brittle. Fractures may be common and heal poorly. Swelling and softening of the facial bones and alternating limb lameness are frequently reported. (See also osteomalacia, Osteomalacia.) From the Merck online Veterinary Manual
http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/182606.htm

I will not feed bran as part of a daily ration though; maybe as part of sicknursing feed only, a friend here used to swear by pollard, a bran with a little more flour in it, but no longer feeds it since her horse cracked his pedal bone. Fortunately he has recovered and is back in work.

It is interesting that online the UK manufacturers don't list the ingredients.
 
Last edited:
Irish_only:

Qualifications - vary. A lot of the stuff you hear on here (and on any yard) is frightening. But much is also good.

Tell your friend to join in here!

Being fat soluable, I believe vits A and D are stored: in subcutaneous fat. Toxicity is possible, but rare, and happens as a result of months of overfeeding. I would imagine there are many other substances which are toxic to horses, including but not limited to minerals and antagonists such as lead. I don't know much about toxic substances which aren't meant to be in the horse's diet at some levels - I know a little about the stuff which is meant to be there at the right levels! ;)

I agree about Perennial Ryegrass.
 
Last edited:
Irish_only: Antroposophical! Cripes. ;-)

Seriously - I am not going to go there because I freely admit that I don't know enough about the principles. But in answer to your friend's question - I happen to be a qualified animal nutritionist & I have posted on this thread - but I could also be a 16 yr old doing my GCSES. Who knows?
 
Jericho said:
I totally see the point of this thread and agree wholeheartedly and yet my fatty 15.1hh mare and lami prone welsh 18 yr old look the best they ever have including their feet on very poor restricted grazing at night, straw and no grazing during the day, and top spec antilam and a handful of top chop lite. I'm reluctant to change to feeding no hard feed because I don't believe they will get enough vits and min from straw and minimal grazing. I feed straw to provide roughage and fibre - I did feed hay / soaked hay but even on a tiny amount they were increasing in weight and not getting enough fibre during the day and getting bored.
Click to expand...

Makes perfect sense to me Jericho.
 
irish_only said:
AS I am really enjoying this post and finding it interesting, I emailed the link to some friends. Here is a reply from one of them who isn't a HH forum member.

Quote "I read this the other day. I also read the page linked to in the first comment. Or that is, I got to the second paragraph where she talked about stored toxins. What is the endocrine, lymphatic and circulatory system for if it is not to evacuate toxins. This notion of detoxing is nonsense.

Very few toxins are accumulative - ragwort is the most known about, other toxins: vitamin A and D are found in fat, but are not stored . . .

If we were to feed our horses in an anthroposophical way, then we certainly wouldn't feed ryegrass for starters. (50% of most sward is made up of perennial ryegrass).

We have domesticated the poor animals and then we get on board them (did you know that in the BHS Stage 3 book it says that the Latissumus Dorsi Muscle is to carry a rider?????). We can only feed them to the best of our knowledge, our anthropomorphic ideals and to what suits us in terms of price and availability.

Maybe we should have our own forum? And who are these people who answer on the forums? What are their qualifications?

Comments . . . " end of quote

So - what do you all think?
Click to expand...

As I said earlier ,that article took some truths and distorted them .The notion of toxins being stored in fat deposits is unfortunately true. Eliminating some compounds is often beyond the bodys capability.(DDT). In fact weight loss can put toxins back into circulation though the body may not be able to excrete them. I was discussing this point with a friend who came up with a rather toungue in cheek solution. Be a blood donor.Perhaps not the most ethical method. :eek:
 
irish_only said:
AS I am really enjoying this post and finding it interesting, I emailed the link to some friends. Here is a reply from one of them who isn't a HH forum member.

Quote "I read this the other day. I also read the page linked to in the first comment. Or that is, I got to the second paragraph where she talked about stored toxins. What is the endocrine, lymphatic and circulatory system for if it is not to evacuate toxins. This notion of detoxing is nonsense.

Very few toxins are accumulative - ragwort is the most known about, other toxins: vitamin A and D are found in fat, but are not stored . . .
Vitamins A. D & E are fat soluble vitamins and are stored in the body, in horses vitamin D is manufactured by the horses skin and when also added to the diet can result in overloading.

If we were to feed our horses in an anthroposophical way, then we certainly wouldn't feed ryegrass for starters. (50% of most sward is made up of perennial ryegrass).
Perenial rye grass is a natural growing grass and the seed has been collected and been used by European nations for thousands of years to make bread. The Pied Piper of Hamlin story is believed to be the result of a town all suffering from ergot poisoning from the rye seeds used to make their bread. Horses will have been eating it for millenia

We have domesticated the poor animals and then we get on board them (did you know that in the BHS Stage 3 book it says that the Latissumus Dorsi Muscle is to carry a rider?????).
Maybe a poor choice of wording - this muscle is the one that carries the rider

We can only feed them to the best of our knowledge, our anthropomorphic ideals and to what suits us in terms of price and availability.
This knowledge has been passed down through the generations from people who found by trial and error what best suited the horse. Why are we now reverting to making our own food because we have discovered that in order to ensure the manufactured foods we eat remain edible the manufacturers have addded preservatives, free flowing agents and so many other things they have to use numbers to identify them. When you bake a cake from scratch it has Flour, Butter, Sugar and Eggs in it - a packet Sponge Mix - well I'd need half a page to list the ingredients

Maybe we should have our own forum? And who are these people who answer on the forums? What are their qualifications?
Mine BHSAI, ABRS Grooms Diploma, BHS Stage IV, BHS Stable Manager

Comments . . . " end of quote

So - what do you all think?
Click to expand...

I think that there are a lot of people on here who really know what they are talking about and that regular readers get to know who's knowledge and advice to trust and who not to trust.
 
I think it is up to owners to do their own research and feed what they feel is correct for each horse. Some horses undoubtedly do well on comercial feeds, and some do better on straights. When i was learning to ride and worked at a riding school 15 years ago we only fed straights, in fairly small portions and only to horses in fairly hard work. Other than that they had hay/ haylage. I found for most of them they looked well on this diet. However, some could have done with a bit more.

I do find it shocking how many people will just go along with what they hear and know nothing about what they're feeding. For example this winter, someone feeding some very fat horses in no or little work (one morbidly obese) said she daren't give them no pasture mix as they wouldn't get any goodness otherwise. Off good quality haylage. *headesk* it's not the manufacturers fault.
 
Naturally said:
Irish_only:

Qualifications - vary. A lot of the stuff you hear on here (and on any yard) is frightening. But much is also good.

Tell your friend to join in here!

I would imagine there are many other substances which are toxic to horses, including but not limited to minerals and antagonists such as lead.
Click to expand...

Ah Lead - forgot that one. Living in an area where we are surrounded by lead mines, grazing has to be carefully chosen. Many years ago I lost a 3yo to lead poisoning, and he hadn't grazed near any disused workings. Young animals are more susceptible to leaded land, hence a commonly known phrase in our parts for lead poisoning in young cows is 'staggers'. Obviously a build up of toxins?
 
Mike007 said:
Forgive me if I am wrong but isn Alfa A simply dried alfalfa. If you feel you need more protein and digestible fibre,feed a better hay ,or buy a few bales of imported Canadian Alfalfa hay ,and add a slab to his haynet. Dont be kidded by the feed salesmen,there are alternatives. PS your K is fuc*ed
Click to expand...

Is it readily available? And better than the dusty stuff usually passed off as good hay nowadays?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top