Just how subjective IS saddle fitting

GinaGeo said:
I think many saddle fitters forget that the only expert in the room when trying saddles is in fact the horse.
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I always compare it to buying expensive children's shoes. You've bought them shoes from the time they could walk, you know their fit but they measure them in the shop and come up with a completely different fit, which of course doesn't fit and you go back to the fit you would have chosen if you had the chance.
I always buy saddles second hand and if I sell one, which is not very often, take it over for them to try and ride in. At the end of it all the way the horse goes is the best judge
 
I saddle fit myself now as well, iv had my mare 12 years and only had her back checked 3 times when I thought there could be a problem but there never was. So I can't have her saddle to bad.
Iv fitted my youngsters saddle myself as well and tbh I found him very hard to fit and tried so many and funny enough the only one I'm happy with is a old saddle iv picked up at a car boot for £25, it don't look pretty but fits well and for a growing/shape changing youngster it will suit just fine.

My friend had no trouble with her horse until she used a saddle fitter who is very well known in our area and has a good reputation, but since spending £650 on a new saddle the mare has had nothing but back problems and she's now sick of it and has lost her faith. It's happened to a few friends of mine but saying that I fitted a saddle to a tb mare my friend had ( going back a few years) and she had a fitter out to check and it fitted fine which impressed me that 1, my fitting can't be that bad and 2, the fitter didnt try to sell one of her saddles just charged the fitting fee and that was it.
Tbh there is always good and bad the same as everything in life but some of the saddles iv seen " fitted" I will carry on myself.
 
For anyone who is interested, I have an article on the ins and outs of having a new saddle fitted. It's designed to try to stop people being led up the garden path by some so called "professionals" of which I hear about time and time again.
It may be of interest to some of you who I haven't already sent it to.
PM me for it if you wish to see it.
Oz (Traditionally trained Saddler)
 
I think you get horses who fit a certain type of tree. My two (including the still-growing baby) have very flat backs, and my old Wintec sat on them like a rocking chair (therefore I know that a Bates, Thorowgood and K&M won't fit either as they all have similar "curvy" trees)

I personally don't get on with Stübben saddles, so consequently my mare has ended up with a Prestige (and that was a gulp inducing cheque!) which has a very flat tree, but fits her really well.

My youngster will be backed in a treeless (he's had it on a couple of times and he doesn't mind it), and I'll switch to a treed for the riding away.

My problem is that here, in (my corner at least) of France saddle fitters are rarer than hens teeth. It is still very much that the saddle is fitted to the rider, and then you would use various pads and shims to make it fit which ever horse you are riding, and if your saddle is too narrow for the horse - tough luck for the horse.
 
ven two saddles made at the same time and identical size, type etc, can vary, as they are made individually. like cloths, no two saddles are the same when it comes to size.
 
Casey76 said:
My problem is that here, in (my corner at least) of France saddle fitters are rarer than hens teeth. It is still very much that the saddle is fitted to the rider, and then you would use various pads and shims to make it fit which ever horse you are riding, and if your saddle is too narrow for the horse - tough luck for the horse.
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This is very true, I deal with a few people in France who all say the same thing. Despite the carriage costs I have saddles sent over to me to do remedial work and repairs on as there is no one near them they trust.
 
Casey76 said:
My two (including the still-growing baby) have very flat backs, and my old Wintec sat on them like a rocking chair (therefore I know that a Bates, Thorowgood and K&M won't fit either as they all have similar "curvy" trees)



.
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sorry, but not so. the wintec tree is very different to the shape of trees in th other saddles yu mention.
 
GinaGeo said:
I think many saddle fitters forget that the only expert in the room when trying saddles is in fact the horse.
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This is the basis for the entire philosophy of Balance International, whose saddle designs are much more akin to those from the past than the deep-seated, massive knee roll type things that are around now. For the life of me, I can't work out why they are not more popular. My horses, both of whom have had saddle issues in the past, love their Balance saddle (they share one!) and it was their reaction to it which chose that particular saddle (it's a Horizon and it is wonderful).
 
My cob has been in the same saddle for 8 years, one saddle fitter says its perfect, new saddle fitter says it doesn't fit at all and should be replaced.
Physio says horse has no problems at all with his back, so who to believe? I find it hard to understand how 2 people with exactly the same saddle fitting qualifications can have such differing opinions, it makes no sense.
I have subsequently tried 2 different saddles on him and they were both awful, so am sticking with my supposedly ill-fitting one as we're both very happy with it!
 
Saddle fitting is an art, based on a few scientific principles. It is not an easy job, you are dealing with two sentient, moving beings, who sometimes (often with the cobs and natives I fit) have opposing saddle requirements.

There is no one way to teach a child to read, there is no one way to build a house, no one way even with some medical conditions, anything complex has different approaches which may or may not work. Find a saddle fitter you like, who understands your shape of horse (and fits brands that have appropriate trees for that shape, the tree MUST fit), and communicates well with you. Make sure they see you ride in the saddle, in as many paces as you can, and make sure, if they come to you, that they will honour a 7 day trial. Legally they are obliged to.

Horses are indeed our ultimate customers, and their opinions matter. The one issue is that when you remove a point of pressure by using a different saddle, the horse can often go much better PURELY because the pressure point has gone. The different saddle may not be a perfect fit either though, which is where the fitter needs to know what the guidelines are, so that the fit is correct enough that the horse will not get sore somewhere else, further down the line.

And saddles are not magic fixes -for example if you are a very tall rider on a very short horse, there may be no great solution that works for both of you. If your horse is not developing topline it may be how you are riding/training your horse, it may be front foot pain, it may be ulcers. If you can work holistically with a great fitter and other professionals who can work together, then you should find a way to keep all this stuff working long term.

And I agree entirely about the old saddles often being better because they had flatter trees and less panel - you do need a little more panel than, say, some of the very close contact showing saddles, but I see SO many trees that are curvy, the panel is then made to try and compensate for it; they seem to have been fitted more for rider security than for a correct fit on the horse, it's the commonest problem I see.
 
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sbloom said:
Saddle fitting is an art, based on a few scientific principles. It is not an easy job, you are dealing with two sentient, moving beings, who sometimes (often with the cobs and natives I fit) have opposing saddle requirements.

There is no one way to teach a child to read, there is no one way to build a house, no one way even with some medical conditions, anything complex has different approaches which may or may not work. Find a saddle fitter you like, who understands your shape of horse (and fits brands that have appropriate trees for that shape, the tree MUST fit), and communicates well with you. Make sure they see you ride in the saddle, in as many paces as you can, and make sure, if they come to you, that they will honour a 7 day trial. Legally they are obliged to.

Horses are indeed our ultimate customers, and their opinions matter. The one issue is that when you remove a point of pressure by using a different saddle, the horse can often go much better PURELY because the pressure point has gone. The different saddle may not be a perfect fit either though, which is where the fitter needs to know what the guidelines are, so that the fit is correct enough that the horse will not get sore somewhere else, further down the line.

And saddles are not magic fixes -for example if you are a very tall rider on a very short horse, there may be no great solution that works for both of you. If your horse is not developing topline it may be how you are riding/training your horse, it may be front foot pain, it may be ulcers. If you can work holistically with a great fitter and other professionals who can work together, then you should find a way to keep all this stuff working long term.

And I agree entirely about the old saddles often being better because they had flatter trees and less panel - you do need a little more panel than, say, some of the very close contact showing saddles, but I see SO many trees that are curvy, the panel is then made to try and compensate for it; they seem to have been fitted more for rider security than for a correct fit on the horse, it's the commonest problem I see.
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Very good post Steph and totally agree!
Oz
 
hollybear said:
My cob has been in the same saddle for 8 years, one saddle fitter says its perfect, new saddle fitter says it doesn't fit at all and should be replaced.
Physio says horse has no problems at all with his back, so who to believe? I find it hard to understand how 2 people with exactly the same saddle fitting qualifications can have such differing opinions, it makes no sense.
I have subsequently tried 2 different saddles on him and they were both awful, so am sticking with my supposedly ill-fitting one as we're both very happy with it!
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Well either the saddler who says the saddle doesn't fit doesn't know his arse from his elbow or he's trying to sell you a new saddle.
 
I'll give one example - some saddle fitters think it is okay to have a saddle lift slightly at the back in rising trot, many don't. One may understand the shape of the tree better (remember it is totally hidden, you need to know what it looks like to truly fit it well), one may feel that the saddle should sit in a slightly different place and that the fit is stopping it doing so.

The SMS Qualified Saddle Fitter qualification is an interesting topic, not one I can really comment on as I decided not to go for it, just not worth my while.
 
Sbloom's post sums it up perfectly. Saddle fitting is an art, based on a few scientific principles.

One of the difficulties is that the saddle fitter can only really make adjustments while the horse is standing still. Horses lift their backs as they work so a saddle that fits at rest may be too tight once the horse is in motion and vice versa.

You can't easily see the back lifting while riding, but it is fascinating to watch carriage horses changing shape while you are sitting up above them driving. One Andalusian mare in particular springs to mind as she "grows" a massive amount when she needs more power.
 
pennyturner said:
My last purchase was £5 from ebay. It was a Camelot (which I have another, and they're old, but good), and had been overstuffed to the point that the stitching had split all around.

I removed half the flocking, tried it on the pony and put it back together. Turns out it's one of the 'fits just about everything' type :)

In the interests of science, I'd be up for hosting an event where everyone turns up with their horses, and the 'doesn't fit anything' saddles (I have two, but at least they were cheap), to see if we can give them away to someone who has a horse that fits!
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Interested by this - I've just bought a second hand Black Country for a great price. It's a wide (10inches D ring to D ring) but it has been stuffed so much to make it smaller for a narrower pony. I need it made back into it's origional wide state again by taking the flocking out but all the saddlers are making a huge deal out of it, saying it can't be done without even looking at it! I am willing to pay for a saddler to come fit, adjust and re-fit the saddle but there only seems to be one that doesn't seem to think it's a big deal and she's prepared to come next week.

Surely taking flocking out is ok to do to get a saddle to fit again, just as adding flocking is ok?? I know it will have to be rebalanced but that's what I'm prepared to pay for, just feel like people are making a big deal out of it and making me feel like I'm asking for something really unreasonable :(
 
Saddles and saddle fitting fascinates me but its sure not a job I'd like to do! Much like horses, saddles cost a shedload of money to buy and you can't tell if they're going to work out long term from a short trial, even with a pair of trained, experienced eyes on the ground telling you that it looks good to them. I don't actually think its realistic or all that helpful to say a saddle fits or doesn't fit, unless its way out - its more a question of what works or doesn't.

Plus when things aren't going right with a horse its very easy to start pointing the blame at the saddler (or the farrier!) when often the horse has other problems that no one's aware of yet.
 
Cheshire Chestnut said:
Interested by this - I've just bought a second hand Black Country for a great price. It's a wide (10inches D ring to D ring) but it has been stuffed so much to make it smaller for a narrower pony. I need it made back into it's origional wide state again by taking the flocking out but all the saddlers are making a huge deal out of it, saying it can't be done without even looking at it! I am willing to pay for a saddler to come fit, adjust and re-fit the saddle but there only seems to be one that doesn't seem to think it's a big deal and she's prepared to come next week.

Surely taking flocking out is ok to do to get a saddle to fit again, just as adding flocking is ok?? I know it will have to be rebalanced but that's what I'm prepared to pay for, just feel like people are making a big deal out of it and making me feel like I'm asking for something really unreasonable :(
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I regularly remove flocking, especially from the middle of the panel under the seat, to flatten the fit for the horse. Factory flocking can even be too much for some horses, and when you widen a saddle you frequently need to remove from the middle a widening a saddle makes it slightly curvier in the tree.
 
I think the issue is that you only have to go on a basic course to become a saddle fitter. Someone told me the other day that all saddlers in my area for example only have the basic qualification which is annoying.

I had a horse go weird after a while a few years ago, got a saddler out and turned out the saddle never fitted him - too long in the seat. The original saddler sold me the saddle as a perfect fit when it clearly was not, I ended up having to buy another saddle which he loved and instantly went better in. I was also ejected in spectacular fashion TWICE a couple of years ago having had a c-section 5 weeks prior, I was backing a pony who a saddler had JUST fitted a new saddle to. Pony suddenly exploded twice and dumped me badly (permanent injury!). Got another saddler out who said the saddle was bridging. The original saddler couldnt care less that Id been chucked off badly because of her, she didnt even argue, just gave owner her money back.

So I dont have much trust left in saddlers anymore! I tend to go by my gut feeling as well...
 
Auslander said:
That's what my dressage is - amazing saddles. Don't suppose you could mention to Kay that I'm looking to sell mine could you? She is more likely than most to appreciate it/know someone who might want one!
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Have you tried http://specialistsaddles.co.uk/ they only sell second-hand Kay/Barrie saddles

If it's and XW 17" my friend is looking for one!
 
MagicMelon said:
I think the issue is that you only have to go on a basic course to become a saddle fitter. Someone told me the other day that all saddlers in my area for example only have the basic qualification which is annoying.
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It all depends what the qualification is. I am trained mostly by the lady that owns the brands I work for, but I rate her extremely highly and my work speaks for itself. The SMS offer a weekend introductory course in saddle fitting but that does NOT qualify anyone to be a saddle fitter. The full QSF course is totally different and much more involved, but from what I read on here, and see out and about, there are great QSFs and not so great QSFs.

There are other companies who train saddle fitters, some offer very short courses before they send the fitters out, and many have fitters who work very much part time, in addition to regular jobs, or horsey jobs like back people and riding instructors. I leave it to you to decide whether you want someone who is out there fitting full time, or someone who does a couple of fittings a week. Some of the latter can be very good of course.

I had a horse go weird after a while a few years ago, got a saddler out and turned out the saddle never fitted him - too long in the seat.
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My very initial training was by someone who taught me the WRONG method of placing the saddle in relation to the back rib. I see many saddles fitted by people trained by him that are too long. I will only fit too long (and bear in mind I fit a lot of adults on ponies) where the pony has already been in a saddle that is technically too long with no associated soreness, but it has to be on the purchaser's head and they have to sign something to say they understand the saddle is technically too long. I don't like doing that, but where a rider is fine in terms of weight for the pony, but the rib cage is too short to take the right seat length for the rider, your options become more limited.
 
With all this complexity - how do you find a good fitter? My new horse will need a saddle soon, he's an ex racer with limited muscle at the moment so I don't want anything that will rub/ be sore - equally he will change shape a lot over the next 12=18 months so spending £1k on a perfect saddle now isn't the answer
I'd love some proper advice 1) some sort of changable gullet synthetic? 2) a good old stubben with lots of thick numnahs/ gel pads 3) a good basic saddle that fits now knowing it needs replacing in 3/4 months 4) option I haven't thought of.

I've tried most of the saddle fitters in my area 1) I suspect knows his stuff but never speaks so very hard to discuss things with - v v v shy I guess 2) happy to fit without seeing horse ridden - can't be right 3) specislists in certain brands and I want wider advice than that. the good national ones aren't going to come all the way out here to tell me to spend £150 on a synthetic - which could be the right answer!

Ahhhhhhh
 
Me too Fides.. My friend has a saddle fitter coming to check all five horses later today and I'll eat my hat if the existing ones are deemed suitable. They were mostly fitted by a local saddle specialist and Chiro last year who also likes to sell saddles! Result : a crazy TB who hated the saddle and started bucking and behaving badly but because saddle was expertly fitted, yeah! It took a while for the penny to drop. Behaviour changed when old saddle was tried! I'm so hoping that this lady knows her stuff. I get the impression that too many rely in the fitters expertise and don't listen to the horse and don't do their own checks because after all it needs an Expert.
 
Polos Mum said:
With all this complexity - how do you find a good fitter? My new horse will need a saddle soon, he's an ex racer with limited muscle at the moment so I don't want anything that will rub/ be sore - equally he will change shape a lot over the next 12=18 months so spending £1k on a perfect saddle now isn't the answer
I'd love some proper advice 1) some sort of changable gullet synthetic? 2) a good old stubben with lots of thick numnahs/ gel pads 3) a good basic saddle that fits now knowing it needs replacing in 3/4 months 4) option I haven't thought of.

I've tried most of the saddle fitters in my area 1) I suspect knows his stuff but never speaks so very hard to discuss things with - v v v shy I guess 2) happy to fit without seeing horse ridden - can't be right 3) specislists in certain brands and I want wider advice than that. the good national ones aren't going to come all the way out here to tell me to spend £150 on a synthetic - which could be the right answer!

Ahhhhhhh
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I feel your pain, im in the same boat myself. I have a leather adjustable gullet saddle, that i have been told is suitable for my girl, however, now doesn't suit me!!!!
 
Polos Mum said:
With all this complexity - how do you find a good fitter? My new horse will need a saddle soon, he's an ex racer with limited muscle at the moment so I don't want anything that will rub/ be sore - equally he will change shape a lot over the next 12=18 months so spending £1k on a perfect saddle now isn't the answer
I'd love some proper advice 1) some sort of changable gullet synthetic? 2) a good old stubben with lots of thick numnahs/ gel pads 3) a good basic saddle that fits now knowing it needs replacing in 3/4 months 4) option I haven't thought of.

I've tried most of the saddle fitters in my area 1) I suspect knows his stuff but never speaks so very hard to discuss things with - v v v shy I guess 2) happy to fit without seeing horse ridden - can't be right 3) specislists in certain brands and I want wider advice than that. the good national ones aren't going to come all the way out here to tell me to spend £150 on a synthetic - which could be the right answer!

Ahhhhhhh
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I'm also in this boat- have bought an old but reasonable looking Thorowgood adjustable synthetic. I'm having a saddle fitter out tomorrow so I'm hoping she can fit it. I hate synthetics with a passion and have never used an adjustable saddle but it seems to make sense as it can be adjusted (by the fitter!!) as and when required and I'll invest in something nice when my mare's topline etc is developed...... Well, that's the plan anyway! This isn't the gullet plate type though, it's an Allen key- does anyone have any experience of these?
 
Is it a Laser? That mechanism is not common and won't last forever. All adjustable saddles have their pros and cons but of course first and foremost the tree SHAPE and not just width must be right for the horse. And changing the width slightly changes the shape of the tree as well - widening makes it curvier (ironic as when horses get wider they tend to get flatter) and narrowing makes them fit flatter.

Edited to add - had forgotten the beginnigng of your post by the time I got to the end! Doh! Have never heard of a TG with the allen key mechanism...
 
sbloom said:
Have never heard of a TG with the allen key mechanism...
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No no me either and looking around on the tinternet, I can't find anything on them- it's got a Thorowgood care label on the inside, but nothing else to identify it. I can only assume that it's quite old (certainly quite filthy!!) as it's one of those plastic attempting to be leather jobbies. Will see what the saddle fitter thinks tomorrow, if it's a goer it will have been worth a punt, if not nothing lost really!
 
sbloom said:
All adjustable saddles have their pros and cons but of course first and foremost the tree SHAPE and not just width must be right for the horse. And changing the width slightly changes the shape of the tree as well - widening makes it curvier (ironic as when horses get wider they tend to get flatter) and narrowing makes them fit flatter. QUOTE]

Oh dear, I didn't know that, but now you have said that, of course it makes perfect sense! I have a Saddle Company saddle that has been on my MW ISH that I am hoping can be widened enough to fir my new Highland x. Potentially not then?? I guess I would be looking for something with a much flatter tree. Any recommendations SBloom?
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I have just sold a saddle that was fitted by a saddle fitter, and was bought brand new by the horses owner. Definitely didn't fit, too wide at the front, sat too low and tipped me forward.

Bought one from someone who deals in second hand saddles but didn't fit so sent it back. Then bought a nice older Albion off ebay, put it on and was immediately happier with it than anything else. I have it with a riser pad underneath at the moment as he's still muscling up but he seems much happier in it and when the physio came the other day he didn't have any issues with his back unlike previously.

I watched some videos on saddle fitting, read a fair amount and decided what would be suitable for both of us along with some suggestions from my instructor watching us ride.

His owner is keen for me to have a fitter out to check the fit but I'm not convinced by this fitter as it's the same one who fitted the old saddle! But I keep hearing good and bad things about all the fitters in this area!
 
Captain Bridget said:
I have just sold a saddle that was fitted by a saddle fitter, and was bought brand new by the horses owner. Definitely didn't fit, too wide at the front, sat too low and tipped me forward.

Bought one from someone who deals in second hand saddles but didn't fit so sent it back. Then bought a nice older Albion off ebay, put it on and was immediately happier with it than anything else. I have it with a riser pad underneath at the moment as he's still muscling up but he seems much happier in it and when the physio came the other day he didn't have any issues with his back unlike previously.

I watched some videos on saddle fitting, read a fair amount and decided what would be suitable for both of us along with some suggestions from my instructor watching us ride.

His owner is keen for me to have a fitter out to check the fit but I'm not convinced by this fitter as it's the same one who fitted the old saddle! But I keep hearing good and bad things about all the fitters in this area!
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I feel your pain - I'm in Hants too and have had nothing but issues with saddlers. So much so I pay a hideous amount to get my old saddler down form Bedfordshire!! However, lots of people have the same issue so she comes down and does a big load of us and its not so bad cost-wise. Thinking of trying Kay Humphries though who is in Wilts.
 
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