Just how..?

[smolmaus]

I think my biggest pet peeve is when people put nets so high up that the horse has to stretch its neck all night. It’s the kind of thing where I think “How has it not crossed your mind how uncomfortable that must be?!”.

This is just another balancing act tho. If your horse paws and gets a foot caught and panics the result could be worse than a stiff neck. Given, I'm sure there are many people hanging them up high just because that's "what's done", but still. I watched a horse get his unshod foot inside a net somehow. Luckily he did it so often he didn't panic Two of my friends horses have had front rug buckles get caught in nets in the past month.

 

[MyBoyChe]

Hay balls work for mine, a sec b with cushings and a highland who always thinks shes about to die of starvation! I give them the greater portion of their hay in a normal net (haylage one with smaller holes) and then put a hay ball in for both. The little one is quite good at extracting hay from the ball but the bigger one will only bother with it if shes really hungry as opposed to plain greedy, its too much like hard work apparently. I do bed them both on decent straw but the bigger one hardly touches it, Sec b will nibble on it quite happily, sometimes preferring it to straw. Im on clay too so they have to be in overnight in winter, the ground just wont stand up to them charging around in a fit of temper when everything else comes in.. ponies definitely suffer from FOMO

 

[Michen]

I think in pounds these days but I’m kind of shocked by the amounts people feed and thinking carefully about my own now! For a 500kg horse shouldn’t they be getting roughly a minimum 1.5% of their body weight for a fatty, aka 7.5kg?

What am I missing haha? Mine is around 500kg/1000lb and a little overweight. He is fed four times a day and a flake at a time which is approx 4lb-5lb. So about 16-20lb which is between 1.5-2% of his body weight.

Hay here is more nutritious than UK hay though, hence he’s on the lower end of minimum forage requirements and still tubby.

 

[smolmaus]

I think in pounds these days but I’m kind of shocked by the amounts people feed! 12kg of hay is 26 pounds. For a 500kg horse shouldn’t they be getting roughly a minimum 1.5% of their body weight for a fatty, aka 7.5kg?

What am I missing haha? Mine is around 500kg/1000lb and a little overweight. He is fed four times a day and a flake at a time which is approx 4lb-5lb. So about 16-20lb which is between 1.5-2% of his body weight.

Hay here is more nutritious than UK hay though, hence he’s on the lower end of minimum forage requirements and still tubby.

7.5kg divided by the dry matter content, so 0.9 or 0.8 depending on the hay. Which would make it 8.5 - 9.5kg. A 500kg horse on a maintenance of 2% bw and 80% dry matter forage would need 12.5kg, so that's not at all crazy.

 

[Michen]

7.5kg divided by the dry matter content, so 0.9 or 0.8 depending on the hay. Which would make it 8.5 - 9.5kg. A 500kg horse on a maintenance of 2% bw and 80% dry matter forage would need 12.5kg, so that's not at all crazy.

That makes sense thanks! Our hay here is green and rather calorific, so I guess that’s why the lower end still keeps the weight on too much.

 

[Michen]

On the other end of the spectrum for those worried about periods without food. I was at a ranch in Wyoming over summer and the herd is bought in at 6am and corralled, with no forage, until they are put back out to pasture 12 hours later. I’m not sure I noticed a single girthy horse.

It horrified me a little though, for sure!

 

[MuddyMonster]

This is just another balancing act tho. If your horse paws and gets a foot caught and panics the result could be worse than a stiff neck. Given, I'm sure there are many people hanging them up high just because that's "what's done", but still. I watched a horse get his unshod foot inside a net somehow. Luckily he did it so often he didn't panic Two of my friends horses have had front rug buckles get caught in nets in the past month.

Yeah, mine has caught himself in a hay pillow before on his rug. So he now only gets his hay pillow when unrugged - so realistically, only in the summer.

I'd never say they are dangerous or that anyone else is wrong for using them - they just don't work for mine overnight when rugged.

Of course the best option is probably loose ad-lib forage. But we can't do that, so we just use the least worse option for us - which is small holed nets and larger holed nets for straw.

I'm sure plenty of people would tell me I was cruel if I fed free access and ended up with a lame, obese horse in pain so there's really no winning or pleasing all folk

 

[dorsetladette]

Ponies are now demolishing 3kg double netted trickle (3cm hole) nets in (I think) about 4 hours. These were supposed to last them the whole night.

I noticed that they’d started cribbing again (which mine only do if left without hay for too long) a week ago, so I kept an eye on them the other night, and they ate just under 1kg in an hour. I increased their portion to 4kg, which I suspect is still being demolished within 6 hours, which isn’t adequate for a 12-hour night.

I genuinely have no idea what to do anymore. They’re both natives who pile on the pounds.

I don’t have the facilities/time to soak hay for more than 1/2 an hour (in cold water).

I don’t have the facilities to soak more than one hay net simultaneously (there is a finite amount of water, reliant on a tank, and only one soaking bucket anyway)

I don’t have the facilities to store both straw and hay.

Do I start triple netting???

It sounds like they are now not getting as much from the grazing as they were a few weeks ago. My lot are all eating more hay and less grass even with 24/7 turn out. There is still grass on the ground as they are grazing, but it's not the volume of forage they need to fill their tummy's.

I've read your other replies further down the thread and can only suggest increasing forage to avoid the cribbing or stress like behaviour's. Can you give the arthritic one a bib clip to help with managing weight? It might help balance out the extra calories eating more forage.

I am another who feels that 4kg for 12 hours is a little on the low side, but I don't know what your grazing is like to be able to judge what they are receiving the rest of the day. Can you cut out any hard feed to allow for any extra forage?

Another thought - could you find lower quality hay? I'm not saying dusty, mouldy cr#p but the type of stuff that isn't as appetising. We had a batch of small bales a few years ago that we had to limit their intake and alternate with another suppliers hay as it was far to delicious for our lot. We called it heroin hay as they were literally addicted to the stuff, it was gone in minutes.

Just a few thoughts.

 

[smolmaus]

That makes sense thanks! Our hay here is green and rather calorific, so I guess that’s why the lower end still keeps the weight on too much.

Yeah this doesn't control for actual nutrition. The last bale of haylage we had was quite wet so I went for similar volume (as similar weight would have been very little) and pony still got noticeably chunky, must have just been very nice grass that cut!

My last yard they get fed at 7am and then whenever their person comes up, which for working folks was usually 6pm. Solid 8 hours minimum with nothing. It was one of the reasons I moved tbh as it was giving me brain worms but most of the horses there cope. No ulcers that we know of! Any mention of lunch nets and you get told no, btw, people did try, so it's cope or leave.

 

[Tiddlypom]

My chiro vet says that if you have to use hay nets then research shows that hanging multiple nets at different heights and on different walls is much better for the stabled horse than just the one large net.

I’ll hang two nets at different heights plus put some loose hay on the floor if they are in at night.

 

[HaplessHorse]

I know they can’t be stood for hours with nothing, which is why I asked, my original method was working well and not causing issues until the past week or so.

I think I also need to disengage from “about to die of lami dieting”. After last winter, and when we got Erin, it was very much a case of as slim as possible as fast as possible.

This has reminded me that, although they have gained a bit due to going into winter, they’re not as bad as they were.

So, I think I need to adjust as such, and go up to 5kg overnight, and maintain the current daytime routine. I think I will also have a look at the chopped straw/topchop because that could probably be stored with the other feed bags. Erin likes to keep swapping nets, so she keeps them both moving around in a friendly manner, which is helpful!

Hay pillows might also be an option, I guess that’s what I’m getting for Christmas!

At the next vet visit I’ll also be asking about prascend for Saus, because she is probably suffering from PPID, and I think it’s getting to the point where she does need medicating for it because she’s becoming more difficult to manage than Erin.

Is the new plan acceptable?

For reference I can’t do a bed of anything because Erin is prone to mites. (They have access to a surfaced paddock from their stables, and tend to poo outside but sleep inside/elsewhere in the paddock).

I really can’t work out Erin’s (14hh) exact weight, because the tape says she’s 440kg, but her condition score is a 6 so the numbers don’t seem to match up.

If it doesn’t work for Saus I don’t know what I’m going to do, she really is so much harder to manage than Erin.

 

[ester]

Yeah, mine has caught himself in a hay pillow before on his rug. So he now only gets his hay pillow when unrugged - so realistically, only in the summer.

I'd never say they are dangerous or that anyone else is wrong for using them - they just don't work for mine overnight when rugged.

Of course the best option is probably loose ad-lib forage. But we can't do that, so we just use the least worse option for us - which is small holed nets and larger holed nets for straw.

I'm sure plenty of people would tell me I was cruel if I fed free access and ended up with a lame, obese horse in pain so there's really no winning or pleasing all folk

At least they can drag it around with them, I’ve seen a fair few get attached to the wall via their haynet

It is def easier without shoes

 

[FieldOrnaments]

Is the new plan acceptable?

For reference I can’t do a bed of anything because Erin is prone to mites. (They have access to a surfaced paddock from their stables, and tend to poo outside but sleep inside/elsewhere in the paddock).

I really can’t work out Erin’s (14hh) exact weight, because the tape says she’s 440kg, but her condition score is a 6 so the numbers don’t seem to match up.

If it doesn’t work for Saus I don’t know what I’m going to do, she really is so much harder to manage than Erin.

Heart girth method is more reliable than a weigh tape alone; you just need a ballpark figure though and BSC is arguably the most important thing, as an owner, to get a handle on, and just use the tape to see the general trend when your eyes might miss changes.

It sounds like the best solution might be a big bin of very plain chaff, with the hay ration split between two small holed nets/pillows. I like these ground feeding nets and they're not too dear. https://nibbleze.net/product/chilli-small-knotless-net/

 

[dottylottie]

is it possible to give them a bib clip, let them shiver a bit of chunk off and therefore up their hay a bit?

i feel your pain, ive got 2 porkers and 1 of them has ulcers - she was 100kg overweight when i bought her, soaked hay and strip grazing got the weight off thankfully but im very conscious now that as much as i need to keep food in front of her, i do not want her that weight again! 13.2hh and 500kg on the weigh tape also can’t put her on a straw bed, because she was eating almost the whole thing every night.

could you store just 1 straw bale? diva gets a slice a night which does seem to last her, she doesn’t always eat it (kindly mixes it into her shavings when she doesn’t want it). it would mean picking a bale up would be a weekly chore, but much easier to store.

if soaking isn’t an option, dampening it might slow them down a bit - mine are always deeply offended if it’s a bit dusty and needs a spritz, and take longer with it.

 

[PurBee]

Is your hay quite fine textured? What slows mine down is when they have stemmier forage with finer bits. A mix. I’ve noticed the stemmier stuff forces them to chew more naturally, hence slowing them down.
I got a couple of bales of some very fine first cut hay as a trial a while back and they inhaled that so quickly! A kilo gone in 15 mins!
The Timothy haylage by marksway is a nice alternative to mix with finer forages if you prefer not to use straw. It’s stemmier, with leaf too, and nutritious seed heads for protein/omega nutrients.

Surprisingly, some mixed meadow hays can be higher calories/sugar than even fermented ryegrass haylage. So it’s easy to assume they’re on a low calorie hay if it’s ’old mixed meadow’, when in fact upon testing it can be higher than the majority of proper fermented haylages on the market.
I dabbled with hays for a few years before switching to majority haylage, and I can give my 450kg any amount of ‘proper made haylage.’ (I say that phrase often as there’s many making and calling their forage haylage that’s not and unsuitable from a balanced low sugar level/mould eradication point of view)

 

[ester]

3 of our hay sources are very fine textured at the moment and I’m wondering if that’s going to be a thing this year given the weather. It’s a pita to handle

 

[Boulty]

We’re all doing the best with what we’ve got & very few people have access to the absolute ideal circumstances.

I don’t think a lot of people “get” what it’s like to have an EXTREME good doer until they have one and that not all of them will test as having EMS and so can’t have access to drugs to help with weight loss etc. Not all horses are capable of having an off switch and to those horses “ad-lib” could mean eating a whole 20kg bale in one sitting which if overweight or laminitis risk just isn’t appropriate to allow them to do. (Neither is allowing them to gorge their entire nights forage ration in a few hours).

Yes nets have their issues but in a lot of cases with overweight horses who gorge the benefits outweigh the risks. IMO using a few different designs (ideally with some being knotless soft mesh) and offering at least 2 feeding heights / positions can help mitigate this. From what I’ve read it’s ok for SOME of their hay to be fed at height
but not all of it and ideally you should offer a more natural grazing position as well if possible.

Steering back towards actual ideas for a sec if possible it may be worth trying a different grass mix as coarser hays eg Timothy or stalkier meadow hay tend to have a longer chewing time and may last a little longer if what you’re currently using is quite soft. I found the more like straw it was the better for mine! (Also I think the coarser stuff isn’t as easy to “cheat” and rag a load through in one go with so they do actually have to tease it with their lips more). Probably not the best year to suggest this in mind you!

 

[marmalade76]

It sounds like they are now not getting as much from the grazing as they were a few weeks ago. My lot are all eating more hay and less grass even with 24/7 turn out. There is still grass on the ground as they are grazing, but it's not the volume of forage they need to fill their tummy's.

I've read your other replies further down the thread and can only suggest increasing forage to avoid the cribbing or stress like behaviour's. Can you give the arthritic one a bib clip to help with managing weight? It might help balance out the extra calories eating more forage.

I am another who feels that 4kg for 12 hours is a little on the low side, but I don't know what your grazing is like to be able to judge what they are receiving the rest of the day. Can you cut out any hard feed to allow for any extra forage?

Another thought - could you find lower quality hay? I'm not saying dusty, mouldy cr#p but the type of stuff that isn't as appetising. We had a batch of small bales a few years ago that we had to limit their intake and alternate with another suppliers hay as it was far to delicious for our lot. We called it heroin hay as they were literally addicted to the stuff, it was gone in minutes.

Just a few thoughts.

This is a good idea. My husband makes hay in several different fields and it all varies. I usually have upto three different types on the go over winter and they have their favourite which they will eat first and other types they're not so fussed about so will take longer to eat - greed v need. I also add haylage after Christmas which will get scoffed first, of course.

 

[Peglo]

This is a good idea. My husband makes hay in several different fields and it all varies. I usually have upto three different types on the go over winter and they have their favourite which they will eat first and other types they're not so fussed about so will take longer to eat - greed v need. I also add haylage after Christmas which will get scoffed first, of course.

I have 2 different types from 2 fields. When my fatty’s net is full of the courser stuff she has been known to paw at her net. (Thankfully no shoes and too high to get her leg caught in the rope)
My bigger lass will eat the courser stuff first and pick at the soft nicer smelling stuff

I do try and give a bit of each type though.

 

[marmalade76]

I have 2 different types from 2 fields. When my fatty’s net is full of the courser stuff she has been known to paw at her net. (Thankfully no shoes and too high to get her leg caught in the rope)
My bigger lass will eat the courser stuff first and pick at the soft nicer smelling stuff

I do try and give a bit of each type though.

Yep, I've had them choose to eat the previous years' seed hay with no smell to it at all over lovely green sweet smelling meadow hay

I am a big fan of mixing hays, a wider variety of grasses, herbs and nutrition.

 

[Chianti]

I have one similar and I'm afraid I have to feed him 4 x a day to ward off ulcers. He was on 12kg (vets orders) to get slim.

He'd have nets at 6am, midday, 4pm and 10pm. I used to use the trickle nets and they would last around an hour. He used to also have straw but that stopped after an impaction.

Since we've had the wall mounted slow feeder, the hay lasts 2 hours. He is on around 16-18kg now.

I believe that some time without forage is best overnight when they do slow down.

I too never had a horse who needed restricting until I had one who was metabolically challenged and had previous to my ownership, had lami. It certainly focuses the mind!!!

What is your wall mounted slow feeder?

 

[smolmaus]

Me and my instructor just watched Sadie pull a section of long, stemmy coarse forage out of a single net hole and eat it like she was slurping spaghetti. I was looking forward to the new bale being less hoover-able but alas.

 

[Caol Ila]

Lots of swearing is involved.

My EMS horse gets about 6kg of soaked hay overnight, distributed between a small holed hay net and an Eazigrazer. At this very second, she goes into a field with a muzzle on between 7am and 2pm. I give her about 1.5kg of hay when she comes in, and then give her another 1.5kg of soaked hay circa 4/5pm. I try to give her the overnight ration no earlier than 6:30pm, but it's usually between 7pm and 8pm. I question my life choices.

Oh, yeah, and I ride two hours per day, average. Or trying to. Was easy in summer when we could f*)*ck off on long hacks. Currently involves more swearing, occasional threats to move to Spain, and doing two rides per day, hacking then schooling. Also, drinking.

 

[HorsesRule2009]

Ponies are now demolishing 3kg double netted trickle (3cm hole) nets in (I think) about 4 hours. These were supposed to last them the whole night.

I noticed that they’d started cribbing again (which mine only do if left without hay for too long) a week ago, so I kept an eye on them the other night, and they ate just under 1kg in an hour. I increased their portion to 4kg, which I suspect is still being demolished within 6 hours, which isn’t adequate for a 12-hour night.

I genuinely have no idea what to do anymore. They’re both natives who pile on the pounds.

I don’t have the facilities/time to soak hay for more than 1/2 an hour (in cold water).

I don’t have the facilities to soak more than one hay net simultaneously (there is a finite amount of water, reliant on a tank, and only one soaking bucket anyway)

I don’t have the facilities to store both straw and hay.

Do I start triple netting???

One of the liveries at ours feeds purely straw to her native as both horse and owner older so can't really up the exercise to much, and it was to much for the owner to be soaking/ lifting hay nets.
In fairness the O changed horse from hay to straw over a 4 - 6 month period but could probably do it over a slightly shorter time frame.
She feeds a balancer each evening and in the depths of winter adds speedibeet.
And horse goes put on grazing during the day.

The horse looks spot on weight wise and the O isn't having to lug heavy wet haynets around and also always had straw left in the morning so isn't without forage.