just missed having my head kicked off this morning..

[kerilli]

^^^ i totally appreciate this Spring Feather, that sounds like good practise, but isn't the fact that yours have adlib hay/grass very important?
my tb mare is living out (well rugged up fwiw) in a field with what looks like lots of grass, but she is eating oodles of hay. i know that when the grass turns good in about April/May, she'll totally ignore ANY hay i put out.

 

[Wagtail]

Oh goodness I laughed out very loud when I read this latest piece from you Wagtail. I'm sorry but 8 horses. Try owning a stud farm with 10 times as many horses and then tell me of your experience. Real experienced horse people know that there are many reasons why horses do what they do. Cold and hunger and just two of those reasons.

You are easily amused. I didn't realise you had to own or care for 80 or more horses before you could offer an opinion. I do apologise. I guess that mad old lady with the 80 odd cats packed into her home living in their own filth must be the oracle of cat knowledge.

Sorry, SF, although I do sometimes think you speak a lot of sense, pulling out the 'I've got more horses than you' card is a little childish. It is as easy to be an idiot and own a hundred horses as it is to be an idiot and own one.

Not saying anyone is an idiot, you understand.

 

[Spring Feather]

Kerilli I personally would never leave my broodmares without hay from autumn onwards to the beginning of summer. Like you I know that hay or haylage is a good and relatively inexpensive way of helping horses heat their bodies up however in a later post the OP mentioned that the field had lots of grass in the field. This grass is probably not good enough to sustain the horses at this time of year and they really should be on hay IMAYO However, this is where I become unstuck, Wagtail suggests that cold and hunger are the only reasons why horses could do what this mare has done and that is simply not the case. Particularly with broodmares I've found that the hierarchy is far more prevalent and prominent than in a regular herd with mares and geldings. Broodmares (certainly mine anyway) can become very dominant, probably some procreative hormones going on, and I wouldn't walk into any large-sized herd of broodmares with buckets of feed and expect to get out alive. Not even mine; much as I love the old girls and as well behaved as they are when food is not around, I know how they can get at feed times occasionally and I value my head too much lol!

 

[Spring Feather]

Sorry, SF, although I do sometimes think you speak a lot of sense, pulling out the 'I've got more horses than you' card is a little childish. It is as easy to be an idiot and own a hundred horses as it is to be an idiot and own one.

Not saying anyone is an idiot, you understand.

I didn't say I owned an 80 horse strong stud farm I said *try* owning an 80 horse stud farm and then come and tell us of your experience. It's probably easier for the idiot to get by with one or eight horses than it is for an idiot to survive long with eighty or a hundred horses. Whether I own one such stud farm isn't relevant. What is relevant is that there are more than 2 reasons for horses becoming a handful and kicking out at feed time.

 

[Jesstickle]

I worked somewhere with TB broodies (probably 15 odd I suppose). We didn't go in the field to feed them, just hung up buckets on the fence. We weren't allowed in with them when feeding as they could be funny buggers.

OP, I would tell the owner what happened as next time it could be her and she might not be so lucky. I would also explain why you won't be feeding them in the future! Perhaps you could push again for them to be hayed. Any chance someone could put a big bale in the field for them by tractor/quad so that she doesn't have to cart hay constantly? Just a suggestion as you seem to think they could do with haying and at the end of the day you're the one out of all of us who know the horses

 

[Wagtail]

I didn't say I owned an 80 horse strong stud farm I said *try* owning an 80 horse stud farm and then come and tell us of your experience. It's probably easier for the idiot to get by with one or eight horses than it is for an idiot to survive long with eighty or a hundred horses. Whether I own one such stud farm isn't relevant. What is relevant is that there are more than 2 reasons for horses becoming a handful and kicking out at feed time.

Of course there is! But the commonest reason by far IME has been cold and hunger, which is why I always ensure the horses have adequate forage and appropriate rugs and shelter. Hierachy plays a role too, but never more so when there is competition (which is more urgent when horses are hungry and/or cold). Horses are far more easy going when their needs have been adequately met. Or has this made you laugh too?

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

My guys are all fed loose in the field. I feed them according to hierarchy and yes there are faces pulled but they all know that if legs are flying they get chased the hell up the field and get no feed. There is always a lead rope and head collar hanging on the gate to make it easier to get them in, have chased them with this before, they fair get out the way

I put out a hay box and they eat from that happily yes there are some faces and stomping but again whilst I am there they keep it to that.

Wouldn't be the first time I have taken a stick to one of them for bad manners but they have all learned that standing back and waiting gets their dinner to them quicker. All horses need to realise that that above behaviour isn't acceptable at any point whether it's feeding or bringing in. The feed in question shouldn't really be an issue, I've known horses to go mental on alalfa and be scary never mind straights so I really don't think that the oats are much of a factor IMO.

Currently using space awareness t teach the baby bargy coblet to mind my space and I can now just point a finger and be firm and she moves back, she's a quick learner and is getting better every day

 

[Spring Feather]

Of course there is! But the commonest reason by far IME has been cold and hunger, which is why I always ensure the horses have adequate forage and appropriate rugs and shelter. Hierachy plays a role too, but never more so when there is competition (which is more urgent when horses are hungry and/or cold). Horses are far more easy going when their needs have been adequately met. Or has this made you laugh too?

Nope some of it sounds sensible.

Horses are far more easy going when their needs have been adequately met ... and when there is no hardfeed around. When hardfeed is introduced into the mix it can (and often does) create all sorts of trouble and this very often has nothing to do with whether the horses are cold or hungry. You often see the same crotchety response where people give their horses treats and that response isn't because the horse is hungry or cold. Anyhow I digress, I don't believe we have enough information to judge either way why the horse did what it did; maybe it was cold and hungry and maybe it wasn't.

 

[Jesstickle]

Nope some of it sounds sensible.

Horses are far more easy going when their needs have been adequately met ... and when there is no hardfeed around. When hardfeed is introduced into the mix it can (and often does) create all sorts of trouble

Gosh, isn't that the truth. BH is an absolute toad if I try and feed my pair in the field. Despite the fact he has all the grass/hay he could ever want. Bring a bucket in and he's just horrid. I just don't do it as it isn't worth the hassle, he's fine about hay and he's fine if you feed him in his box but even I get death stares out in the field, never mind poor little Nits!

 

[Trish C]

OP - I would definitely tell the owner about the kicking. There's a chance the same could happen to her or another livery so if you've told her a) they might be more aware therefore less likely to get kicked and b) for your own conscience! You'd probably end up beating yourself up if the horse were to kick someone else and you hadn't said anything.

 

[lula]

Gosh there is a lot of generalising in this thread

The mare was clearly warning the other horse off for approaching the food when she, the boss mare, hadnt got her dinner yet. Ideally you would feed her first then follow on in pecking order to avoid such issues.

Im perfectly aware of that thankyou tigertail, and that is what i do, and feed them well away from each other to avoid any bickering. However, in this instance i didnt get the chance to feed anyone before the mare turned and let fly at me within 3 paces of stepping in the field.

there has been some extremely accurate and sensible advise given on this thread from some very experienced horse handlers so i dont think you can dismiss it all as 'tripe' in such an arrogant way as you did in your initial post.
I dont quite see what you are so 'annoyed' about either.

 

[kerilli]

hear hear. fgs, lula hadn't had a chance to give the dominant mare her grub before she got both barrels.
yes, there have been lots of assumptions in this thread (by me, too), but i will continue to believe that horses with ad-lib hay (in multiple places, so no squabbling) tend to be far less likely to try to take your head off once they see a bucket!
i think the big bale of hay being delivered is a great idea. that's what i do for my living-out-24/7 mare at the moment (she has a friend, before anyone jumps on me!), no hard work for me there.

 

[TigerTail]

Lulu uv missed my point, the made had turned to have a go at the other horse, you were just behind her when she exaggerated her point by kicking. I don't think she would have been aiming at you, kicking the source of food is t sensible after all!

As has been said experienced is as experience does, whilst those of us who have been around horses longer should have a broader range of experiences to draw upon, we can end up missing new or obvious points having become blinkered In old age so to speak .
To say a horse would behave like this because it is hungry and cold and that feeding in the field is bad is downright ludicrous. That is not taking into account the herd dynamics or hormones, it's thinking like a human not a horse!

 

[kerilli]

Lulu uv missed my point, the made had turned to have a go at the other horse, you were just behind her when she exaggerated her point by kicking. I don't think she would have been aiming at you, kicking the source of food is t sensible after all!

As has been said experienced is as experience does, whilst those of us who have been around horses longer should have a broader range of experiences to draw upon, we can end up missing new or obvious points having become blinkered In old age so to speak .
To say a horse would behave like this because it is hungry and cold and that feeding in the field is bad is downright ludicrous. That is not taking into account the herd dynamics or hormones, it's thinking like a human not a horse!

unless i've completely misunderstood, lula had JUST stepped into the field, & was 3 paces from the gate. i'm sure she'll explain further if necessary, but i am guessing that the dominant mare came forward first, and then spun round and let fly in temper for some reason. if the other mare was behind her (as i suspect, dominant mare usually approaches first, no?) then she kicked in totally the wrong direction...
of course, i wasn't there either so i'm just guessing the scenario. happy to be corrected. i've seen a horse do this though... at someone carrying a feed. makes no sense at all.
horses do get grouchy if they are hungry and cold, i don't find that hard to believe at all.

 

[lula]

'Lulu uv missed my point, the made had turned to have a go at the other horse, you were just behind her when she exaggerated her point by kicking. I don't think she would have been aiming at you, kicking the source of food is t sensible after all!'


no, i agree, she spun where she had her attention on me and the bucket of feed round to flatten her ears at the mare behind her but kicked out at me which i agree was part of her display of dominance to the subordinate mare and probably not intended for me BUT it is incredibly dangerous behaviour and the horse knew i was directly behind her so is a lack of respect and training.

The food got kicked out of my hand by accident however, she's not that good a shot! But thats how close she came to kicking me off my feet. i dont think she was aiming to kick the feed bucket. i dont think horses think things through that way if thats what you were suggesting...sorry if im wrong here.


the mare had not acted like that in the summer when she came back from stud at grass with the same mare companion and no hard feed so her marked change in behaviour must be down to something...
There are only the 2 of them so herd dynamics are not complicated by other herd members.

what is it then..
pregnancy hormones?
being oated up?
hungry with no forage and lacklustre winter grazing?
being a fine tb , having a thin coat and out 24/7 unrugged feeling cold..?

likely a mixture of all 4.

 

[Wagtail]

Lulu uv missed my point, the made had turned to have a go at the other horse, you were just behind her when she exaggerated her point by kicking. I don't think she would have been aiming at you, kicking the source of food is t sensible after all!

As has been said experienced is as experience does, whilst those of us who have been around horses longer should have a broader range of experiences to draw upon, we can end up missing new or obvious points having become blinkered In old age so to speak .
To say a horse would behave like this because it is hungry and cold and that feeding in the field is bad is downright ludicrous. That is not taking into account the herd dynamics or hormones, it's thinking like a human not a horse!

Actually, I think that blaming it on hormones and herd dynamics is thinking even more like a human than saying it is simply because it is hungry or cold! Especially when it's mainly hormonal women at the keyboards .

Fact is, we are all just offering up our opinions. It COULD be a combination of all FOUR things, hunger, cold, hormones and herd dynamics. I am guessing at the two former but don't rule out the other two. I agree with Kerilli, that my impression was that the OP came in the field and shooed the lead mare back then she got double barrelled. I would guess, in temper due to the annoyance of being cold and hungry and then being told to move back. My guess is that this would not have happened if the thin skinned mare had been rugged up and had access to ad lib forage.

 

[lula]

unless i've completely misunderstood, lula had JUST stepped into the field, & was 3 paces from the gate. i'm sure she'll explain further if necessary, but i am guessing that the dominant mare came forward first, and then spun round and let fly in temper for some reason. if the other mare was behind her (as i suspect, dominant mare usually approaches first, no?) then she kicked in totally the wrong direction...

thats completely correct kerilli.

 

[lula]

Actually, I think that blaming it on hormones and herd dynamics is thinking even more like a human than saying it is simply because it is hungry or cold! Especially when it's mainly hormonal women at the keyboards ..

HEH!! aint that the truth!

 

[Jenni_]

Cant quote on my phone! Yeah she was renowned for being a bit of a cow but I thought I was helping by feeding her for her owner.

Here's a picture of me AFTER my operation!