Just thinking outloud. opinions please

[LeannePip]

Think i am just after some opinions on her really - im not very good at shortening things so excuse the random ramblings!!

I have been having lessons on my 5yo with a new instructor and the improvments have been amazing - im riding alot tougher (still being fair im not bullying her, just more black and white) with her and not pussy footing around her any more and in turn shes giving me more and more so am very pleased with her but she still has her stubborn mare moments and stroppy 5yo moments! she likes to argue a fair bit but with me being more plain about it these are getting fewer and less of a tantrum more of a strop! shes jumping alot better and although shes decided she no longer hacks on her own (this is a work in progress!) shes acctually being less nappy x-c meaning i can acctually get her out of the start box (touch wood) and shes in full flow after the first couple of fences where as before we'd have a whole load of acrobatics before we got there! i think she may be growing up!

After my lesson tonight we were just chatting and he mentioned that a friend of his was moving to NZ and selling her little event horse 7yo i think ex flat racer very smart does a good DR last few have been low 20's 23/24 careful jumper and only had one stop xc ever and jumping well at pre novice this year will be ready for novice next season. going very cheap as her flights are booked - and he said he would be perfect for me. this isnt really about should i buy this horse its more about should i persevere with my current one.

he's not the first person who has suggested selling her; the people who i was WP for suggested selling her as a four year old because i couldnt get her past the second show jump, my previous instructor suggested it a few times saying that it gets to a point that you cant make them reliable, some times shes on form others shes not and she lets me down and now the new one :/ even when shes going well and improving people far more experienced than myself still doubt her, not because of her abilty she'd easily do PN maybe even a novice one day but her attitude and how she can throw her toys out the pram gives her a limit. shes not dirty about it and never dangerous! but she is the most fun! after some awful expereinces its nice to have a horse i feel safe on doing everything the only thing wrong with her is sometimes her attitude and her locking stifles! if she had the temperment of a gelding she wouldn't go anywhere. They all think though that one day i'll get fed up her her letting me down when it counts and have all been there with horses similar to her and said they should have got shot sooner. but i wouldnt says shes let me down yet? she got me round our 1st ODE in the 90 at Tweseldown, is a star to hunt, showjumping is a work in progress and i just need to learn to ride her on the flat! her only down fall is shes water phobic - but still quite inconsistent with this! but even if its true its very dificult to admit. i've had her since a yearling, shes already surpassed my expectations for her but i know there is so much more there but shes not so forthcoming with it! in a bit of a dilema. i know these people are talking from experience so i should listen and save myself the heartache but shes only 5, and i can see improvment and whilst i see improvment i'll want to keep hanging on in there! but they are also talking from a pros point of view in that a horse wasting time is wasting money first and formost shes my horse if she went unexplainably lame i wouldnt trade her in, so why would i do the same because on somedays her attitude stinks

don't really know what im looking to gain from this long rambly post but maybe some of you have had a tetchy/inconsistent horse who came good and want to tell me to crack on and prove them wrong? or cut my losses now and listen to the pros?

Malteasers or Crispy M&M's if you got this far!

complementary picture of the horse! please dont button push! i own both these photos! Thank You!

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[cptrayes]

Part of me says better the devil you know, and you would find a little TB very, very different to ride from your mare, plus you've worked so long and so hard and five is the worst year.

Part of me remembers a horse I struggled with for four years before admitting that I was having no fun.

But you are having fun, I think? I'd keep going, she should settle completely by seven and should be a lot better at six.

 

[Daytona]

I'd say she is still quite young and testing boundaries still but only you know deep down if she the horse for you. I've recently parted with a 6 year old I struggled with since 4 years old, I kept think oh things will get better blah blah blah, people told me sell him, you could be out enjoying yourself and having fun, but at the time I thought no I'm sticking with him but then overnight I suddenly realised all this effort for what, who knows if he will ever be the horse to me, it's a lot of money they were right I should be enjoying myself, so there and then I decided I had to let him go, he was not for me, that was just over two week and I got a new horse straight away - I swapped him you see. And already I'm smiling so much more, making plans and really having fun.

I guess really it's a choice only you can make. Good luck with what ever you decide.

 

[LeannePip]

thank you i enjoy her so much but she can be very frustrating which i think is what these people are seeing. but then i probably dont help her sometimes either! i tend to sit like a numpty until fence 8/9 untill i remember to acctually ride her! im not really considering this other horse i think i know deep down im not ready to sell her and unless i can find a way to finance a second horse its a pretty much non starter, it was nice though that he thought it would be a good horse for me and i could do well with it even if it was at the expense of selling my current one!

Thank You Daytona - i dont think im at that point yet because for the most part i love riding her and can accept her little foibles, but i compleetly agree that if it got to that point it just wouldnt be worth it however much it pained me to do it

 

[cupcakelaura]

I had a Thoroughbred x who wasn't particularly young but had just been left to do whatever the f he liked, we bought him not knowing this and was told that the current owners had no time for him but he'd done a lot of pony club etc. Within a week of me having him, he'd already bolted in a school and ditched me, ran off with me on the other end of his lead rope and dragged me round the feild on my stomach, bolted down a main road after a group of horses, bolted again and again for no reason at all he'd be good as gold and then gone. Kicked me after he saw a group of horses trotting past his gate, kicked my mum for no reason at all. Whenever i took him out with anybody else he'd just jog and jog and jog until my arms ached. I got to the point when i was miserable, I never wanted to go with anybody cause I knew it'd be jog jog jog, I never wanted to go out by myself in case he bolted, I'd dread seeing a group of horses, I stopped jumping him because it was impossible to get him listening to me after the first jump because he'd just run off, and then there were these times when he was an angel, we'd have long lovely hacks, we'd go to shows and get 2nd's and 3rds, but then he'd do something stupid and completely make me loose all faith in him. I eventually sold him because I didn't have the time for him anymore and I also developed a heath problem which means I couldn't ride but I deeply regret it because the last 6 months of owning him he behaved impeccably. It's one of my deepest regrets that I didn't just stick to my guns, so really think about this. Don't do something you're going to regret if your happy keep her if your not don't.

 

[TarrSteps]

What do you want to do with your riding?

Is she still having issues with her stifles?

I wouldn't assume the people advising you to sell are doing so because they think the horse is frustrating you, it may be because they're seeing something you're too close to see. No one on the internet can really advise you. But I firmly believe one of my favourite sayings, 'Never teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.' If she's just green, fine. But if some days she really does not enjoy the job, you would be doing her a favour by letting her find another one.

 

[Honey08]

If you had been saying all that about an older, more established horse, I would have thought sell her straight away, but she is only a baby and allowed to have blips and ups and downs. She has done a lot for her age. However, on the other hand, your instructors know you, the horse and how you are together, and you have two that have suggested that she is not quite right for you, so it does need considering... She does look a lovely type that would sell on and make someone happy.

 

[_jetset_]

I think it very much depends whether you do enjoy her or not. If you enjoy the questions she is asking, and you feel that you have come on together, then I do not think there is any need to be questioning whether you should be selling her. She is only still very young, so I would not be rushing into a decision at this point.

 

[Buds_mum]

Do you love her for her?

If all she was happy doing was hacking and no pressure would you want that?

Have you thought of giving her the winter all pressure off and chilling out, hacking about and bring her out fresh in the spring, she is the same age as mine and has done a huge amount more than he has yet. 5 is still a baby.

Alternately sell her, but to be blunt with horses it always a battle for some reason, the going is indeed going to get tough and you will only succeed when you fight for it, even if that means closing your ears to the 'experts' and fighting to show the world that your mare is worth it and you are on her side.

 

[LeannePip]

Thank You every one, i can see where you are all coming from with these horses that you weren't enjoying and i hope if i was in this situation i too would beable to sell the horse and admit it but having read your posts i dont think i am in quite that deep yet. If all i could do was hack her i'd keep her, i dont have any great riding expectations would love to do grass roots stuff BE90/100 and if by some miracle she one day did a novice then that would be a bonus. i love her for her, i owned her for two years before she even set foot in a school and we had great fun going out showing, in hand hacking and just faffing ect

but i do love riding her when shes good she very good and nothing can compare to her and she does enjoy it. i look forward to getting on her and even when shes been a nightmare i still leave the yard with a smile and get back on the next time. she is not a pros horse which is probably why they think shes not right, but then im not a pro! yes she can be stubborn one day but then a saint the next!

as you've all said shes young, 5 a mare and a welsh so it was'nt going to be easy and thats all i'd put this down to! but when pro after pro is saying to sell up and move on i was begining to doubt myself, i know she'll get there! in my eyes she always been perfect and im always on her side so i think im just going to have to say thanks for the hint, maybe in a couple of years you can say i told you so but for now we are making good progress and im not ready to give up yet!

 

[Goldenstar]

As some one who when young struggled on far to long with a stroppy horse who held back my training and development I would serious consider the advice of the people who know you and are working to develop you.
When I finally listened to the people who knew me and parted with my horse I got a much less smart cheaper horse ( we lost a lot on the disposal of the other ) but the difference of working with a truely willing partner was astounding she took me to my first novices despite not really having two legs that moved in the same direction .
I am not a person who gives up on horses easily but when your young enjoy your time if that means another equine partner so be it .
I am not comfortable giving advice like this about a horse I have never seen but I think that the advice of those who know you is something you should consider seriously.
Ask yourself the question do you want to develop this horse into the best you can get it or do you want to event when you answered that you will know what to do.
Good luck .

 

[Maesfen]

Looking from the other side can I be cynical and ask if the pro's would have a market for her themselves or think she would be good if with a different rider? Not saying that's true but it's worth turning over.

 

[LEC]

I have ignored advice before and was stubborn about it. Having had an easy horse for the last 3 years then I will never go back to an awkward horse. He has gone Novice and achieved my much wanted point in less than a year of doing BE. I am jumping round 1.20-1.35 courses at home for fun on this horse which the last one would never have done and he is such an easy horse to have around.
I still have to work just as hard with this horse and nothing is given to me on a plate. Its just I go to an event and don't expect to have poles, nap or spook or even worse get eliminated.
You can see improvement far quicker on a nice horse and they will do the job without any of the heartache. They cost just as much and you need just as much training to get the best out of them and you can love them just as much.

I would rather be doing Novice eventing all day long on a genuine one than doing 2'6 on an awkward one.

 

[ilvpippa]

I brought my mare like this as a 6 year old. The first winter she tried to deck me every time i rode her! To be fair, she isn't nappy & adores to jump but very argumentative with my input & dressage is a constant learning curve. She's now 11 & trust me, I've had the tears, my instructors tears of oure frustration when I'm only asking for a downwards transition that doesn't resemble a giraffe! And she's allowing me input jumping now; she the most fun little horse; hardwork; but I love her & I've put so much work into her shes never going as she's so in tune to my 'black & white' boundaries she's take the pee with someone else.
Mares are always going to have the wild streak I think some geldings don't have.

 

[BBH]

Same as Honey for me, she's only young and you say you love riding her which says a lot.

If your instructor hasn't mentioned this other horse was buying another horse even on your radar ?

I am always very wary of instructors who suggest their clients buy another horse as its often one they have an invested cash interst in. I've seen a couple of people give up their horses through the words of new instructors and have ended up totally over horsed.

If your horse was older and more established and still doesn't meet your needs that's a different issue.

 

[TarrSteps]

Looking from the other side can I be cynical and ask if the pro's would have a market for her themselves or think she would be good if with a different rider? Not saying that's true but it's worth turning over.

How does that tie in with the OP's statement that the whole issue is some days the horse doesn't want to play? Looking at the photos I could actually see the potential for the horse to be attractive to a whole different discipline but that still doesn't solve the OP's concern, unless she wants to change her own goals.

Given the horse's age, it seems a bit early to say she doesn't want to do the job. But Gs has a point - if the people who know you both the best have reservations, I think you should at least consider them.

Just as a note, I've never seen the reasoning that allowing a horse to find a job or situation that suits it is 'giving up'. If you already have the horse, you are fond of it, and it's physically and mentally suited for the task, persevering through a few bumps is perfectly reasonable. But if a horse is consistently falling short or starting to say no, I think it's only humane to consider whether or not you're asking fair questions. I'm quite tough about horses needing to do a job but I don't think every horse can do every job.

 

[LeannePip]

Thank you all for your continued replies i feel alot more confident now that i am not at that point when its make or break im not sure this person has any 'investment in the new horse' he just heard it was going on the market as far as i know but neither of the other two would have made any monetry gain from me selling the horse. i dont think its that they wanted her for themselves to be honest! a 15.2hh little cobblood with an attitude problem!

would be interested to hear what you think she'd be suitable for tarr steps? as i said im happy riding her, and i'd like to event but it isnt the be all and all for me am very open to other disciplines, in fact she does a bit of everything any way its not that shes saying no, she more often than not is happy to go with the flow but on a bad day its 'why?' and 'make me' and i think that is what is more frustrating is that shes so inconsistent about it! the only thing she says no about is water and hacking down one particular road but even then can be persuaded with some effort.

at the moment i think as long as im happy and feel we are making progress then im going to keep ploughing on if shes still the same at 8yo then maybe i'll reconsider!

Thank You xx

 

[DabDab]

I think that these sort of things depend on what you want - not what you think you should want, but what you long for deep down.

That may sound obvious, but I say it because pros/riders with ambition often have a very different view of these things than someone for whom their horse is really a pet. If you have a difficult horse and you have ambitions to ride at a particular level with it, then it is hard to to become resentful of or frustrated with a horse who tends to let you down. And this is probably what pros identify with when they look at you with your mare.

But your op doesn't read as if this is what is going on with you. You sound like you really love this horse, and currently your outlook is, 'it doesn't bother me that she doesn't hack', 'I don't mind if she has an off day' etc. etc. Because you love her and enjoy having her around - anything else is a bonus. This may not always be the case, but while it is I think you probably know in your heart of hearts that you couldn't bear to let her go. With all the good advice and sensible reasoning in the world, if you'd regret it then it right now it isn't the right thing to do.

 

[DabDab]

I was typing while you posted FWIW I think your doing the right thing for now.

 

[LeannePip]

I think that these sort of things depend on what you want - not what you think you should want, but what you long for deep down.

That may sound obvious, but I say it because pros/riders with ambition often have a very different view of these things than someone for whom their horse is really a pet. If you have a difficult horse and you have ambitions to ride at a particular level with it, then it is hard to to become resentful of or frustrated with a horse who tends to let you down. And this is probably what pros identify with when they look at you with your mare.

But your op doesn't read as if this is what is going on with you. You sound like you really love this horse, and currently your outlook is, 'it doesn't bother me that she doesn't hack', 'I don't mind if she has an off day' etc. etc. Because you love her and enjoy having her around - anything else is a bonus. This may not always be the case, but while it is I think you probably know in your heart of hearts that you couldn't bear to let her go. With all the good advice and sensible reasoning in the world, if you'd regret it then it right now it isn't the right thing to do.

That is exactly it - i'd regret it to eternity if i sold her now knowing i havent tried everything i can to keep her on the straight and narrow. if that changes in the future i would hope i'd be brave enought to make the decision and not let my heart rule my head - its annoying that shes suddenly decided she wont go down our road but as its dark most of the time its not ideal to try and tackle this problem at the moment but im working on it in other ways - getting her out xc schooling on her own and setting boundaries in the school that i hope will then beable to come into play when we have time to tackle it head on in the spring - it it is even still an issue then!

 

[TarrSteps]

In defence of pros, they are often going by what people SAY not necessarily what they think. I quite often have people ask me to assess a horse based on the ability to meet their stated goals. If I don't know them and haven't seen then ride much then, obviously, I'm going to judge the horse by the standards they have designated. Of course no one can say what a horse WILL do but it's often not hard to see what a horse might struggle with. So if someone comes with a horse and the stated goal of going Novice, and then the horse proceeds to stop, labours in the gallop, or jump like a constipated deer, I'm going to be reticent, to say the least.

But, the thing is, the rider/owner is only providing a tiny piece of the puzzle in that conversation. They may enjoy many other aspects of the horse. They may need a horse with very specific assets or be able to deal particularly well with some weaknesses. They may - and this happens a lot - not be that bothered at all about going Novice and/or not in a position to get there anyway.

So if you present me with a horse and say your goal is to do a 2* I might give you a different answer than if you presented the same horse and said that you really love it and want to see how far it goes.

 

[PartlyPickled]

gorgeous mare!! absolutely love her! sounds like you've worked wonders with her

 

[LeannePip]

i think i understand what your saying, its been a very long day!

i think i agree with the point you make if i am understanding you correctly. at the moment if some one came up to me and said what do you want to do with her, i would reply i would like to event her at grass roots level 90/100 - from the way she is going at the moment i have no reason to believe BE 90's 100's are not within her reach shes bold across country, very careful over showjumps and smart enough on the flat - she wont set the world on fire but apart from her 'episodes' shes pretty straight forward and easy to have around. However saying that if it became apparent that these sights were too ambitious i would rein them in and hopefully find a different direction where she would be happy. at the end of the day i love the horse more than the sport.

im interested to know what discipline you thought she would be suitable for based on the photos?