Just to wind up you GSD fans (not that it takes much of course....)

FestiveSpirit

FestiveSpirit

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I really was mightily impressed by this stance from the good ol Kennel Club - now all of you, GET INTO LINE and SUBMIT TO THEIR ORDERS
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http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/1
 
Did you mean to post the hound group standards?
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Another day, another statement, another 'sign here or else' declaration, or you could join a WUSV-affiliated group, which doesn't care about what a paying private member's club, which puts outside attraction and loose hocks before the registration of dysplastic animals for cash, thinks
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CCs? When you can have V ratings, ADs, koerungs and proper assessments of a dog, mind, body, overall health, endurance, working ability, three wee tickets don't seem so attractive.
 
Oh poo my wind up has failed miserably
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I shall go and look again
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Well Firefox is playing up big time tonight, so this is what I was trying to link to:

German Shepherd Dogs - The Soundness Issue

08-Feb-10

A vocal minority in the GSD community seems to continue to attempt to distract attention from the Kennel Club’s main concerns about the soundness of the German Shepherd Dog breed. The Kennel Club remains in no doubt that currently the single biggest threat to the reputation and interest of the breed is the lack of soundness in hindquarters, particularly the hocks.

The presence of this unsoundness in GSDs is generally recognised by most people in dogs except by some with vested interests in the GSD breed who steadfastly refuse to acknowledge that there is a problem in this area. The Kennel Club remains frustrated that something so patently obvious to many dog people - even those with a limited knowledge of dogs - is being ignored and denied by some people in the breed. Indeed the recent Bateson Inquiry singled out the GSD as an example of a breed ‘where drastic action is required’ to address conformation and movement.

The GSD community has commendably introduced a number of valuable voluntary health testing schemes addressing issues such as haemophilia, hip dysplasia and others. The Kennel Club has supported this voluntary testing and will continue to support all responsible breeders who put the health of their animals first. These tests are undeniably important, but crucially they do not address the most important current issue – lack of soundness in the hindquarters and hocks.

Furthermore, the GSD Partnership has repeatedly claimed that the Kennel Club is not accepting its proposed Breed Improvement Programme and its requests that the Programme forms the basis of a mandatory requirement for showing and breeding. The fact remains that no part of the proposed Programme acknowledges, let alone addresses, the issue of soundness in the hindquarters and hocks.

The Kennel Club believes that the health and soundness of dogs should be the fundamental and overriding concern of breeders. The improvement of soundness in the GSD lies with GSD breeders, owners and judges all working towards the same goal. The judge’s role is a vital one in the development of many aspects of a breed, but one of their primary responsibilities is to ensure that unsound dogs are not rewarded in the show ring.

This issue of soundness is not a simple difference of opinion, it is the fundamental issue of the breed’s essential conformation and movement.

All GSD breed clubs have been asked by the Kennel Club to sign a formal Undertaking that ‘accepts that there is a degree of unsoundness in the hindquarters of the breed and in particular in the hocks of some dogs and that these problems are to be penalised at shows.’ They have further been asked to undertake positive action to address this unsoundness issue. GSD owners and breeders have the chance now to make a positive impact on the future of their breed by supporting the Kennel Club’s measures to address this essential factor. Owners and breeders should make their views known to the breed clubs that represent them and ask that the Undertakings be signed for the future protection and welfare of this breed.
 
Yeah, seen that...

"The Kennel Club believes that the health and soundness of dogs should be the fundamental and overriding concern of breeders. The improvement of soundness in the GSD lies with GSD breeders, owners and judges all working towards the same goal. The judge’s role is a vital one in the development of many aspects of a breed, but one of their primary responsibilities is to ensure that unsound dogs are not rewarded in the show ring.
"This issue of soundness is not a simple difference of opinion, it is the fundamental issue of the breed’s essential conformation and movement."

This from a group which refuses to implement what has been asked for by the GSD community - mandatory low hip and elbow scores from parents before they register puppies from those parents. QUE?
 
Here speaketh Dr Malcom Willis, historian, genetecist, pioneer of the hip scoring scheme and probably the greatest champion of the breed in the UK. Ever. I don't think anyone can argue with his wealth of experience and hard work or his devotion to the breed.

"Uniquely the Kennel Club has brought in certain punishments against the German Shepherd breed, for example the withdrawal of CCs, but has brought in no such ruling against other breeds with arguably more serious problems. It is astonishing that suddenly, out of the blue, the KC brings in stringent rules affecting GSD based largely upon a TV programme of dubious merit. One could question the legality of what the KC are doing, but more importantly one must question the wisdom, or rather the lack of it. The biggest problem in the GSD breed is not necessarily unsound action, but it is the registration of inferior dogs and the use for breeding of inferior dogs. The word “inferior” refers to the whole dog in structure, character etc. At this moment in time the GSD world, in the main, is supporting KC schemes in taking action against poor hips, poor elbows and in haemophilia testing.

The GSD fraternity, more than any other breed, has pioneered hip dysplasia screening, but this fact is ignored by the KC. In terms of hips, what is needed is not just a scheme but the KC meaningful support of such a scheme. We need to have specific rules and regulations concerning HD, in that certain values should be used to prevent breeding. Initially, we should begin by insisting that all breeding stock are hip scored and once this is in process, we should develop regulations which should be amended to ban the breeding of dogs above specific scores. This regulation could be applied to other breeds. It is important to stress here that there are ten or more, worse breeds, than German Shepherd Dogs, in terms of mean hip score.

It makes no sense to insist on rules about soundness when the KC is allowing registrations of dogs that are unscored, and that may be deficient in character and inferior in shape. Unsoundness is a general term which is variable in interpretation, according to who you are talking to. The GSD breed has introduced and supported breed surveys for some years. This technique attempts to identify the best animals and then endorse their use in breeding. It considers quite correctly that this is far and away the most accurate assessment of breeding stock. Sadly there is no support nor acknowledgement of this from the KC. Within the breed, many leading breeders do their own culling on hips. I can think of several dogs, over the years, which have had successful show careers, yet because of high hip scores, they have never been bred from. Compared with many other breeds, the GSD owners/breeders/exhibitors, are more knowledgeable than in many other breeds.

It is perhaps true to say that many all rounder judges do not support the correct type of German Shepherd Dog. Why not, when it is recognised universally? This country is out of step and considered the “poor relation” with the rest of the GSD world and the KC is doing nothing to get us back into step. The “Alsatian” which is recognized here and virtually no where else, appears to be supported and lauded by the Kennel Club. If our governing body really wanted to help the GSD breed advance, they would penalise this type of dog.

Unsoundness can be caused by a variety of things, including the way in which animals are reared. There is certainly no evidence to support the view that unsoundness is caused by HD. Some dysplastic dogs are unsound and some are perfect examples of soundness, if this were not the case, why would we bother to x-ray our dogs? If one could tell the hip status by looking at individual dog, one would not need to hip score. Many years ago in our Bernese Mountain Dog breeding, we bred a bitch that 44/44. She was of correct type and perfectly sound/true in movement; , in fact she won her Stud Book Number! Her dam had very unsound rear action and a 3/3 hip score.

In my considered opinion, soundness could be improved more rapidly by the compulsory adoption of breed surveying and by a very strict screening of judges who are given authority to judge GSDs. The existence of two types of GSD is brought about by the Kennel Club permitting judges to award CCs when they should not even be judging the breed at all. The GSD Breed Council has an examination system which attempts to sieve out and remove incompetent judges, but the KC allow people to bypass, it by approving and sanctioning those to judge this breed who have no talent for it and not passed any recognised examinations. Why do the Kennel Club not support and endorse the Breed Council in their excellent endeavour to educate judges? It makes a mockery of criticising soundness if the judges who officiate could, themselves, be described as “unsound”. The Kennel Club would be better employed looking at the way dogdom is run across all breeds rather than by imposing petty penalties on a breed which has contributed more than most.

The issue of double handling is somewhat different but it is not confined to this breed alone. It can take many forms, from blatant and dangerous running around the ring to discrete coughing in the corners of ring. The GSD people in the main are passionate about their breed; very few have other breeds or watch other breed judging. They travel to Germany and other European centres and see the controlled freedom that is allocated to their fellow breeders. The GSD people see year after year, the merit and satisfaction in striving for excellence in both breeding and working potential. They see also the results of breeding top quality animals, strict controlling of breeding schemes, the value in breed wardens, the prowess in expertise of knowledgeable breed judges, who are able to give valuable and important verbal critiques, which are not only valuable on the day, but written critiques which follow, are educational. Regrettably the KC in this country appear to frown upon verbal critiques as being time consuming. Could it be that they are actually beyond the capabilities of some judges and thus we are all excluded because of the ignorance of a few?

One can hardly blame the GSD fraternity for trying to emulate the SV system in the UK. The SV allows and encourages breeders to produce and exhibit the best in the world and that Mecca is where all respected, knowledgeable GSD people strive to be. The KC should sit down with the GSD leaders and seek to understand what they are trying to achieve, instead to imposing petty rules and allowing other more serious issues to go unchallenged."

Dr Malcolm B Willis 9th February 2010
 
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*falls over in shock at size of CC's post*

GH you have set her off on one now.....
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I thought I might do
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Since Westminster started off all this, I am relieved to report that I rang my mum tonight who agrees that the CKCS at Westminster is not that nice - phew, not just me then
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Sorry CC, I shall not infuriate you again I promise
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"The Kennel Club has made it clear that the single most important issue currently facing the German Shepherd Dog as a breed is the soundness of hindquarters and hocks."

OK - so make hip and elbow testing mandatory and only register from low scoring parents - the hock descends from the hip!!!!!!

Q. Where does the KC stand on SV/WUSV events?

A. The KC has worked with the GSD community to enable the annual British Sieger Show to everyone’s satisfaction. All requests of a similar nature will of course be considered. What is being asked is that, as a matter of simple courtesy, clubs should work with their UK governing body to gain support for the organising of any such events.

Good, because that differs from their past stance on the issue - the SV can show us all how to do it properly, taking into account the WHOLE dog - health, soundness, endurance, character, ability to produce and working ability.
 
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*falls over in shock at size of CC's post*

GH you have set her off on one now.....
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I thought I might do
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Since Westminster started off all this, I am relieved to report that I rang my mum tonight who agrees that the CKCS at Westminster is not that nice - phew, not just me then
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Sorry CC, I shall not infuriate you again I promise
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It wasn't me, it was Dr Willis!!!!

I am not infuriated
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my OH is
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**COMING, HONEY!!!! OK, give me a minute. Just got to type one more thing...er....**
 
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"The Kennel Club has made it clear that the single most important issue currently facing the German Shepherd Dog as a breed is the soundness of hindquarters and hocks."

OK - so make hip and elbow testing mandatory and only register from low scoring parents - the hock descends from the hip!!!!!!



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But to play devils advocate - and because I am genuinely interested - the hock is a completely different joint to the hip, is there conclusive proof that poor hip scores result in poor hock confirmation? In my mind the two things may not be synonymous?

Much as it troubles me to agree with anything the KC ever say, I must say that to me as an outsider the hock confirmation is the problem which leads to dreadful toplines (a la the Westminster BOB) and other associated problems?
 
I have known dogs with loose hocks which have improved immensely with sand work and swimming - that to me shows it is not the glaring defect that many claim.
A correct, fit, sound animal with good hips and muscled hindquarters should be able to move well and not have floppy hocks.

The SV were called together to discuss the hocks issue in January 2009 and judges were ordered to penalise it and recommend dogs for breeding with shorter thighs and hocks.

The truth remains that hip and elbow dysplasia and other disorders which are far more serious and detrimental to the health of the dog, but the KC will not make screening and low scores mandatory for registration.

I cannot say anything about the American showlines - I am just lost for words
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Right I really do have to go now, before I am dumped!!!
 
Will you stop all the interesting posts in the evening please, I feel so left out. I think the KC are just so thrilled as they think they have an excuse to whip GSD folks into line, but they seem to be loathe to implement any sort of mandatory testing when asked to do so, strange eh.
Just to stir it up a bit more, they are focussing on unsound hocks, and I agree there are quite a lot out there, BUT this is all supposed to be about the health of the dog, has anyone actually proved loose hocks are harmful to a dogs health? They are not caused by pain, they don't seem to affect a dogs ability to move for long periods of time so I really think the pet owning general public would far rather have a happy dog whose hocks weren't entirely true when moving away, than one that was crippled with hd at a couple of years old.
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ETS. Evie's hocks were horrendous when she was younger to say she moved cow hocked was putting it mildly, but as she has matured and muscled up they have improved no end, and whereas she is not absolutely true going away I certainly woudn't call her unsound.
 
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Evie's hocks were horrendous when she was younger to say she moved cow hocked was putting it mildly, but as she has matured and muscled up they have improved no end, and whereas she is not absolutely true going away I certainly woudn't call her unsound.

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And B's were not the greatest as a youngster either, but he has had a lot of roadwork cetainly moves true going away now. (I know, I am always several feet behind him
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I see tonnes of different breeds out there which do not look right at all to me on the move, including some dogs which are downright lame and their owners seem to be blissfully unaware, and a boxer last week where I was hard pressed not to say something out my car window
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IMO there is no point in having a massive scrap with anyone or any organisation, it is a waste of time, energy and there are more pressing matters to be attended to.

For those who want a more selective breeding programme which puts emphasis on the whole dog, there is a progressive, comprehensive and all-encompassing show and registration system in the home country of the breed, recognised by the FCI, and with a world union of member clubs.
 
I am sorry to say that as an outsider looking in here I am not really being convinced by the GSD argument?
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Sorry, please dont take this personally as I would hate to fall out with anyone in AAD, but I am finding this really interesting
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I agree completely that HD is also a major problem in the breed and can cause hereditary unsoundness, but to me the hocks issue is equally serious? I am comparing it to any other breed of dog, for example if my greyhounds had "loose hocks" (and I am not quite sure what that term encompasses) then I would be absolutely horrified. The same would go for my mum's CKCS, she would not tolerate unsoundness like that?

Honestly, I dont want to be rude, I really am just interested
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And in both our personal experience, and with others, loose hocks can be firmed up with the right exercise? It does not cause the dog pain and the overall issue is being remedied through a breeding programme as suggested by the SV, the governing body of the breed in Germany.

The KC don't/can't even do that - use this line to correct X, use this line to enhance Y.

Judges should penalise any animal that is not moving correctly, at the side gait, coming and going - a dog with floppy or loose hocks should not be taking home prizes.

If, like in Germany, the dogs can gait for long periods over an immense area of ground, and also do off lead gating and long and short protection work, how the hell can they be unsound?!
And I wish someone could tell me who these dogs are, being promoted, who cannot stand or walk properly?

ADDS

Oh and anyone who wants to can come to my club and see 'crippled, deformed, froggy, hunchback'
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GSDs from showlines, running, jumping, tracking, enjoying protection work just as well as the working line dogs.

If anyone cares there will be a Universal Sieger held in Austria in 2011 in a bid to further marry the two types, where the dogs must participate in a full Sch3 trial before entering the breed ring - the dog with the most combined points through all phases will be made Universal Sieger
It is hoped that qualifying heats will be held in the UK.
I can't wait!!!
 
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Judges should penalise any animal that is not moving correctly, at the side gait, coming and going - a dog with floppy or loose hocks should not be taking home prizes.

If, like in Germany, the dogs can gait for long periods over an immense area of ground, and also do off lead gating and long and short protection work, how the hell can they be unsound?!
And I wish someone could tell me who these dogs are, being promoted, who cannot stand or walk properly?

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Hmmm - well I'm afraid that just because it can be corrected doesnt mean it isnt a serious fault to me, although I appreciate what you say about the Germans trying to correct it through selective breeding.

But I do not buy the argument at all about a dog being sound just because it can gait for extended periods of time - my little three legged greyhound could gait for extended periods of time, walking and hurtlng around at a vast rate of knots, but she sure as hell wasnt sound
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In addition I would point out that the KC are aiming their comments at SHOW dogs in the UK which do not necessarily do protection work etc as well, so they are just trying to sort out yet another breed defect?

I just dont get why the GSD people are so anti every effort the KC are trying to make to improve the quality of show dogs in the UK (other of course than the KC are just rubbish and ineffectual) - it isnt like CKCS people have said 'we dont accept that we have breed problems with PRA, heart problems, etc etc so we are going to work against everything the KC is going to do'
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Where are we working against the KC? The 'worst' thing that will happen is that the clubs will refuse to sign a bit of paper and they will take their money and their animals elsewhere, where health testing and assessment of the whole animal is the norm.

Of course we accept that there are problems and that is why we want MANDATORY health testing with low scores before registration of puppies can take place, which the KC refuses to implement? Can anybody hear me??!!!

The KC will register severely inbred puppies, puppies from dysplastic parents, yet they lecture us on health?

If there was a test to predict whether a dog will have loose hocks, we would insist on it, but there isn't one yet.
Loose hocks can be corrected with exercise in the same way as a dog with weak muscle tone elsewhere can be firmed up.

The GSD breed fraternity introduced a lot of the health tests which other breeds have now adopted, INDEPENDENTLY from the KC, responsible breeders will insist on good health test results before they will breed from their animals, the KC does not insist on good health test results before they register.
We are the ones who historically have made the improvements, of our own, not them!
The only reason they are acting strongly and picking a problem out of the hat is because they were made to look bad in a TV show.

CKCS, greyhounds and GSDs all move very differently - I don't see Welsh, Hackney and TB owners saying 'well, your horse does not move like mine, it is therefore not sound'.

Are you really saying that a dog that can cover a lot of ground at a steady pace is unsound? Your female was missing a leg - the other three were sound, I presume, if she could go on for hours.
My dogs go for walks from anything between 90 minutes to four hours - and they could do it all over again if they wanted to, it is me who lets them down - are they unsound? - where are these dogs who cannot walk properly?

To me, I prefer the German way of thinking - the breed ring and Schutzhund are not a place to pick up pretty prizes and ribbons, it is a breed selection tool and points to those dogs and bitches which can correct, enhance and benefit the breed in the best ways possible. The dogs which are promoted should only be the best of the best.
When a German critiques, they will say 'use this dog to promote X' or 'this bitch will be useful in correcting Y'.

If you see a dog with Sch/IPO III, AD, LBZ, KKI beside it's name, that means it has performed in all three phases, obedience, a 2km track, long and short protection work, the AD is a 20km run off a bike, the Korklasse and Koerung (LBZ is a lifetime qualification) are very detailed assessments where the judge goes over the dog in minute detail and gives a rating.
If you do not have these qualifications then your dog is
not desirable to breed from.

This is the system I and many others would like to see in place in the UK. My dog is not suitable for breeding but there are plenty of other things we can do in the sport.

Many people in the UK and Ireland are now able to breed, register and campaign their dogs in Germany, often to great success - there are British and Irish dogs competing successfully at the Sieger every year - if these dogs are well thought of in terms of the world standard, then what is the KC's issue?

Will the KC support this kind of system, a celebration and recognition of the whole, healthy, animal? What do you think?

I know my female would win under certain judges - but looking at the big picture, while a red rosette is nice, it would not be good for the breed as a whole as she is not the correct type and to have her win prizes would send out the wrong message. I know she isn't correct to the standard, so she will not be shown.
 
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The only reason they are acting strongly and picking a problem out of the hat is because they were made to look bad in a TV show.

CKCS, greyhounds and GSDs all move very differently - I don't see Welsh, Hackney and TB owners saying 'well, your horse does not move like mine, it is therefore not sound'.

Are you really saying that a dog that can cover a lot of ground at a steady pace is unsound? Your female was missing a leg - the other three were sound, I presume, if she could go on for hours.
My dogs go for walks from anything between 90 minutes to four hours - and they could do it all over again if they wanted to, it is me who lets them down - are they unsound? - where are these dogs who cannot walk properly?

To me, I prefer the German way of thinking - the breed ring and Schutzhund are not a place to pick up pretty prizes and ribbons, it is a breed selection tool and points to those dogs and bitches which can correct, enhance and benefit the breed in the best ways possible. The dogs which are promoted should only be the best of the best.
When a German critiques, they will say 'use this dog to promote X' or 'this bitch will be useful in correcting Y'.

If you see a dog with Sch/IPO III, AD, LBZ, KKI beside it's name, that means it has performed in all three phases, obedience, a 2km track, long and short protection work, the AD is a 20km run off a bike, the Korklasse and Koerung (LBZ is a lifetime qualification) are very detailed assessments where the judge goes over the dog in minute detail and gives a rating.
If you do not have these qualifications then your dog is
not desirable to breed from.

This is the system I and many others would like to see in place in the UK. My dog is not suitable for breeding but there are plenty of other things we can do in the sport.

Many people in the UK and Ireland are now able to breed, register and campaign their dogs in Germany, often to great success - there are British and Irish dogs competing successfully at the Sieger every year - if these dogs are well thought of in terms of the world standard, then what is the KC's issue?

Will the KC support this kind of system, a celebration and recognition of the whole, healthy, animal? What do you think?

I know my female would win under certain judges - but looking at the big picture, while a red rosette is nice, it would not be good for the breed as a whole as she is not the correct type and to have her win prizes would send out the wrong message. I know she isn't correct to the standard, so she will not be shown.

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Of course that is what the KC are doing, that goes without saying, they are doing far too little far too late. But the GSD fraternity appear to be spending their whole time fighting with what the KC are doing/saying, whereas the sensible thing to do would be to play the 'political game' - agree with what they say, sign up to what they want, ignore what they are trying to achieve and just carry on doing your own thing with KC endorsement
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I suppose I have been in local govt too long and am too used to playing the political game mind you, my sister and I spent some time trying to persuade my mum to stand as Chairman of the Cavalier Club, so we could tell her how to play the game, but she didnt want to
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And I totally and utterly disagree that breeds of dogs move so significantly differently that what could be deemed as poor movement in one breed could be acceptable in another. Whether a horse or a dog I recognise good movement when I see it, and it doesnt matter what breed it is - a sound animal is a sound animal, yes there are exagerations in what is required from the movement but the fundamental basics are always the same?

Whether you prefer the German view of showing or not, you need to realise that this is not Germany, this is England, and the KC are not there to support the same principles which the German GSD breeders wish to endorse - the Kennel Club is there to produce a dog for a beauty contest, not to create an all rounder. It is the same principle as the way some (NOT all) show horses could not do dressage/event/hunt to any high level - horses for courses as the saying goes
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OK, we will have to disagree on the movement thing, does your dog move like this:
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Or this:
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Or this? (My mother saw this dog being made Sieger in 1983, I could watch this all day)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIFpKL0qRQ0
(Haha, check out the comments
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Like it or not, it is a very distinct gait which evolved from having to tramp up and down a line of livestock, all day, everyday.

I don't really know or care how other dog breeds move (although I know lame when I see it) and I leave it to people who know about and are experienced with their own breeds. I know nothing about other breeds, so who am I to judge?

I have spent years at the ringside or freezing my ass off at trials and training, I was at my first show at two weeks old, my mother is a judge, I judged my first breed match in my teens, I have stewarded, I have spent my life watching and working with this breed, so I do know about GSDs.
I just can't talk about other breeds.

The German style system is here already, in the form of the British and Irish Siegers, breed surveys (Brian Wootton I think was the first British person to become an SV judge several decades ago) and German style working trials, it is perfectly possible to get German titles, my dog has his BH, wonders will never cease
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The best thing would be to divide the regions of the UK and Ireland into groups and we can compete amongst ourselves.
I don't care if I never go to an all-breed show again and I am sure a lot of other people feel the same.

Is KC endorsement really that important?
A user on here bought a poodle pup from a 'KC Accredited breeder' - the place was apparently a sh!thole, the pup was dysplastic and has since turned out to be epileptic - the breeder told the user if she didn't buy it, it would be put down anyway. Nice, eh? Accreditation is something that people can buy.

The KC (let's face it, it is a paid club, where you pay to register your dogs and pay to show your dogs, that's all) is an FCI body, so is the SV/WUSV (Ditto).
Some people are just going to join one or the other.
I prefer to look at the bigger picture and join the one that offers me and my dogs, and the breed as a whole, much more than the other.

I want to see a system where inferior, unhealthy dogs are not promoted and where brains, soundness, correct type and health are. Not a system where anyone can throw any two GSDs together, slap 'KC reg' on it and sell them for ££££££.
No sweat!

I wish people who are actively breeding, like SpringfallsStud and Ridebumble were still around to put their viewpoint across, or people like Nijinsky, who also owns showline shepherds from big kennels in the UK...it's getting quite lonely with just us three
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The thing is the whole shake up at the KC at the moment is about producing "healthy, fit for purpose" animals. Therefore although the KC do oversee the beauty side of dogs as in showing, they are also responsible for, and make a great deal of money out of, the breeding side, i.e. registering of puppies.
I have said it before and will say it again, I do think there are some unsound GSDs winning awards and they shouldn't be. I haven't been to a show for over 12 months and would hope judges are addressing this, because they are the only ones who can.
What is bugging the GSD folk is the fact that they have been asking for years that the KC not only introduce mandatory hip scoring before a dog can be used for breeding, but also set a score above which a dog shouldn't be used. Now the KC are jumping up and down about hock soundness but still won't introduce hip scoring. Again at the risk of repeating myself, bad hips can shorten a dogs life and cause it pain, loose hocks cannot!
You say this is not Germany it is England (CC is so going to have you for that
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), but it is a german breed, that was designed to do a job. Surely it is wrong if we (or any other country) take it and decide it no longer needs to be capable of doing that job. It is the KC who are banging on about fit for purpose after all. Regarding playing the political game with the KC, that has been done for years but the KC really do seem determined to say our way or not at all to the GSD folk at the moment, and are not prepared to budge.
Sadly I do suspect a section of the GSD community will break away, not sure where this will leave me if I do ever breed from my girl, I don't show do SchH etc so would not be accepted by that side, but not sure if I want to be grouped with those who don't bother with hip scores, haemophilia testing who will be left with the KC.
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OMG no, I would die if ANY of my dogs had a topline like that
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But as I said, I think good movement is good movement, end of so we will have to agree to differ as you say
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I have said before that I think the KC accredited breeder scheme is a complete and total load of cr*p so I would agree that it means absolutely nothing - my mum is a KC member yet refuses to register as an accredited breeder because she is so anti the way it works
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So really although this has been a really interesting debate I do agree, KC endorsement is not really worth having, and that is why I would never buy a show-bred dog, I always go for working bred dogs
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I suppose the KC is rather like British Eventing or the Jockey Club - old, established, set in their ways, and seemingly completely out of touch with how things could/should work in the modern world
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It is Dingo, yes
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Did you hit the pause button and wait for it to buffer? Then press play when the red line is the whole way across?

(You have to send Evie to a nice handsome German trainer to do your Schutzhund for you
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Duh, got it working now! Fat chance of me sending Evie to Germany (although the handsome trainer bit is appealing), I know loads of people do it but would hate to be parted from any of my girls even for a short time. When it was the trend to send bitches over to Germany to be mated and then back to whelp in quarantine it was suggested we do that with a couple of bitches I had. My short answer was not a chance, they are part of the family why would I voluntarily be separated from them for 6 months.
Gazey, interesting that your mum won't join ABS. I was looking at it thinking I should go down that route if I intended having a litter, but reading what they are looking for I would probably fail the inspection. My kennels aren't posh, and my whelping kennel is currrently occupied by Saffy as it is insulated and has heat, and as long as she is with us ( a long while yet I hope) there will be no puppies. Any pups I have had tend to spend as much time in the house as the kennel but not sure if they would believe me. I'm not fussed about KC approval but it would nark me if by not getting AB status I was grouped with the puppy farmers. Although from what I have read a lot of them have managed to become accredited breeders, which is why the KC have now belated decided to start inspecting.
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I was only winding
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I agree a lot of people do it but to me there is nothing like 'owner trained/handled' beside your dog's name.
I want my dog to work for me, not some random bloke with a beard
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. So get yer overalls on, get your rags out and get on the field
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And hopefully, ideally, it will be normal for all of us to get titles and surveys without having to leave the country
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I'm wearing me rags
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I would like to do more training with her, certainly tracking, not sure about bite work. At the moment though I am struggling to give all the animals enough attention as it is, particularly as they seem to have found a copy of one of H's veterinary books and are working through them, I am sure the vet will accuse me of having munchausens by proxy soon
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, H suggested I register as a charity for ailing animals as I probably fit the criteria.
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