Just when you thought your show was expensive...article from USA re: Pony Finals

[fetlock]

How it all started over there. In 1959 we took a team of show ponies over for a show in New York.

Amongst those who went over with their ponies as children were the Bullen sisters ie Jane Holderness Roddam (author of this piece) and Jennie Loriston Clarke.

 

[fetlock]

One of the other combinations who went over - Gillian went on to marry Robert Oliver and David Tatlow later

 

[SibeliusMB]

In this country we are obsessed with defensive riding positions in ponies that are essentially running away/running through the bridle.

So glad you said this. I'm reading this thread and I can't decide if I'm horrified reading these so-called critiques (of a child...a little tasteless) or amused at the arrogance. Having been here a year and seen dozens of affiliated and unaffiliated comps, I agree with your statement above. I have seen some lovely, soft riders and lovely, soft horses here in the UK, but I'd say many are very much in the defensive riding (deep seat, heavy handed contact) with the horse being driven forward, often times to the point of chipping in or taking a flyer because they were always arriving on the half stride. I've not seen so many people left behind and hanging on their horses mouths....ever.

I watched the Working Hunter classes at Windsor and I saw maybe three rounds in two hours of continuous jumping that didn't involve severe chipping, disunited canter around corners, cantering on the wrong lead around corners, flyers into combinations, etc. I remember being quite stunned.

The UK working hunter system seems to me like it's looking at horses are that actual field hunters and are out hunting when not in the show ring. Hunters in North America (because Canada has the same system...) are based on ideals of the perfect fox hunter. I hunted for three years in Northern Virginia, proper hunt territory, and I also grew up showing rated (affiliated) hunters, so I feel somewhat qualified to speak on both. In our system is judged on ideals. The horse should be a good, efficient mover = the horse should have a "daisy cutter" movement (little to no knee action), lots of freedom from the shoulder, etc so they are efficient across the ground. The horse should be a safe jumper so as not to be a hazard over solid fences = the horse should have exceptionally tight front end and bascule over the top of the fence to demonstrate its athleticism and scope. The horse should be well mannered/pleasure to ride = the horse should go around quietly and consistently with little to no variation in the rhythm or tempo, and should jump from a consistent distance. Etc, etc.

Now those ideals get turned up to "11" in our show rings and result in an overly-stylized version of a fox hunter....a version that in most cases would never see the actual hunt field, probably because 90% of them are too pampered and expensive to actually do that, and 90% of show hunter riders wouldn't be up for actually hunting anyway. That said, I have hunted two successful, rated show hunters in Virginia and you know what? They were a freaking dream. Quiet, easy, comfortable for a 4-hour day out, clever/athletic/safe jumpers, well mannered but enthusiastic, and rode off one finger. Broke, broke, BROKE. So from experience I can say that I much prefer the "dull, dead looking" North American style hunters in the field to the horses that are running through the bridle and on the muscle for 3+ hours.

Olivia Sweetnam is riding in the North American "Forward Seat" style. Derived from the French school, popular in North America because for decades and decades we rode mostly Thoroughbred/blood types who generally prefer a softer, lighter ride. It was also developed because most shows were held on outside courses (huge grass fields, fences set far apart on unrelated distances, lots of wide open galloping, etc) through the 1980s.

It's not posting the canter, and it's not her flopping around because she's unbalanced. The primary support is from the lower leg, both for stability and for control. The seat stays just out of the saddle, and the rider can sink slightly for a light seat if the horse needs a bit of support and the rider needs to keep the shoulders back, or can sink completely into a full seat if needed (ie. for support or driving seat in an emergency, or for counter canter in an equitation test). They're all perfectly capable of sitting the canter - they just don't need to. The pony is moving freely and softly, and the entire picture is consistent and smooth. The fences are relatively tiny....so why the need to sit and drive?

Equitation classes are judged on the rider. Not just their position, but more importantly how they execute their plan and answers the questions on course. Questions might be bending lines and number of strides, hand gallops, counter canters, riding certain track from one fence to another, etc, all while having to maintain a perfectly consistent rhythm/tempo/distances to fences. If it looks easy, they're doing it right. If it looks like they're riding...they're doing it wrong. These kids school lots on the flat and are well versed in basic dressage movements (leg yields, counter canter, simple and flying changes, shoulder-in, travers/renvers, etc) not just for training/strengthening, but because they may be asked to execute these movements in a ridden test, sometimes between fences. Sometimes, jumping fences and executing these movements with no stirrups. At this level, landing on the correct lead after a fence vs landing on the wrong lead and swapping, or a perfectly square halt versus a not-so-perfect halt will be the difference between first and second.

2013 Maclay Finals (equitation class, judged on rider), Lillie Keenan (current US Team rider):

2014 Maclay Ride-Off, top two competitors switched horses:

I don't think either the US or UK system is "right" or "better," they're just very different.

@fetlock, the class described in that article is the Corinthian class. It's very rare these days but still run, and is judged to the highest and most traditional standards of hunting turnout (sewn-in bridles, string girths, fresh sandwiches in cases, flasks, traditional attire, etc). I've only seen Corinthian offered at Upperville (oldest horse show in the US, in the heart of hunt country) in recent years. I believe hunt trials are still offering a Corinthian style turnout class.

 

[The Xmas Furry]

Ems, I was comparing to children's whp classes here, absolutely not adult classes, there is a huge difference (imho) in way of going. EKW was doing the same, I'm sure.
I don't think it's arrogance, but a direct comparison. Def worth you looking at these to compare ?
As I said tho, a v sweet pony and good lines ridden.

 

[scats]

Beautiful soft balanced riding. The criticism on here is nuts!

I have to agree. I saw absolutely nothing wrong with that round at all. A happy pony and a balanced rider.
Was starting to think I was watching a different clip to everyone else!

 

[Bernster]

Thx for the info and context Sibelius. I like hearing how other countries do their stuff. Showing seems a world away from what the ‘type’ would do in real life, in both the uk and us !

 

[j1ffy]

I have to agree. I saw absolutely nothing wrong with that round at all. A happy pony and a balanced rider.
Was starting to think I was watching a different clip to everyone else!

I'm glad it wasn't just me..!! I'd be very happy to ride such a smooth round with such a stable lower leg. I didn't see any moments when she was unbalanced and it was far preferable to flappy legs and unbalanced ponies that you see at many shows in this country.

As Sibelius says, it's a very different riding tradition. I wish children here were as well-drilled in flatwork as the equitation children in the US, there'd be some far nicer sights at smaller shows!

 

[Alibear]

Would have liked to see her give her pony a pat.

I do not know about pony classes but in some of the western classes, you are disqualified if you touch your horse whilst in the ring.
I'm having to learn to never pat whilst in the ring so I don't accidentally DQ us. Pats are for once we've left the ring.
I'd love to ride a lovely relaxed round like that, happy pony ears forward no tail swishing. The relaxed halt and then go again, in a competition environment.

 

[j1ffy]

So glad you said this. I'm reading this thread and I can't decide if I'm horrified reading these so-called critiques (of a child...a little tasteless) or amused at the arrogance. Having been here a year and seen dozens of affiliated and unaffiliated comps, I agree with your statement above. I have seen some lovely, soft riders and lovely, soft horses here in the UK, but I'd say many are very much in the defensive riding (deep seat, heavy handed contact) with the horse being driven forward, often times to the point of chipping in or taking a flyer because they were always arriving on the half stride. I've not seen so many people left behind and hanging on their horses mouths....ever.

I watched the Working Hunter classes at Windsor and I saw maybe three rounds in two hours of continuous jumping that didn't involve severe chipping, disunited canter around corners, cantering on the wrong lead around corners, flyers into combinations, etc. I remember being quite stunned.

The UK working hunter system seems to me like it's looking at horses are that actual field hunters and are out hunting when not in the show ring. Hunters in North America (because Canada has the same system...) are based on ideals of the perfect fox hunter. I hunted for three years in Northern Virginia, proper hunt territory, and I also grew up showing rated (affiliated) hunters, so I feel somewhat qualified to speak on both. In our system is judged on ideals. The horse should be a good, efficient mover = the horse should have a "daisy cutter" movement (little to no knee action), lots of freedom from the shoulder, etc so they are efficient across the ground. The horse should be a safe jumper so as not to be a hazard over solid fences = the horse should have exceptionally tight front end and bascule over the top of the fence to demonstrate its athleticism and scope. The horse should be well mannered/pleasure to ride = the horse should go around quietly and consistently with little to no variation in the rhythm or tempo, and should jump from a consistent distance. Etc, etc.

Now those ideals get turned up to "11" in our show rings and result in an overly-stylized version of a fox hunter....a version that in most cases would never see the actual hunt field, probably because 90% of them are too pampered and expensive to actually do that, and 90% of show hunter riders wouldn't be up for actually hunting anyway. That said, I have hunted two successful, rated show hunters in Virginia and you know what? They were a freaking dream. Quiet, easy, comfortable for a 4-hour day out, clever/athletic/safe jumpers, well mannered but enthusiastic, and rode off one finger. Broke, broke, BROKE. So from experience I can say that I much prefer the "dull, dead looking" North American style hunters in the field to the horses that are running through the bridle and on the muscle for 3+ hours.

Olivia Sweetnam is riding in the North American "Forward Seat" style. Derived from the French school, popular in North America because for decades and decades we rode mostly Thoroughbred/blood types who generally prefer a softer, lighter ride. It was also developed because most shows were held on outside courses (huge grass fields, fences set far apart on unrelated distances, lots of wide open galloping, etc) through the 1980s.

It's not posting the canter, and it's not her flopping around because she's unbalanced. The primary support is from the lower leg, both for stability and for control. The seat stays just out of the saddle, and the rider can sink slightly for a light seat if the horse needs a bit of support and the rider needs to keep the shoulders back, or can sink completely into a full seat if needed (ie. for support or driving seat in an emergency, or for counter canter in an equitation test). They're all perfectly capable of sitting the canter - they just don't need to. The pony is moving freely and softly, and the entire picture is consistent and smooth. The fences are relatively tiny....so why the need to sit and drive?

Equitation classes are judged on the rider. Not just their position, but more importantly how they execute their plan and answers the questions on course. Questions might be bending lines and number of strides, hand gallops, counter canters, riding certain track from one fence to another, etc, all while having to maintain a perfectly consistent rhythm/tempo/distances to fences. If it looks easy, they're doing it right. If it looks like they're riding...they're doing it wrong. These kids school lots on the flat and are well versed in basic dressage movements (leg yields, counter canter, simple and flying changes, shoulder-in, travers/renvers, etc) not just for training/strengthening, but because they may be asked to execute these movements in a ridden test, sometimes between fences. Sometimes, jumping fences and executing these movements with no stirrups. At this level, landing on the correct lead after a fence vs landing on the wrong lead and swapping, or a perfectly square halt versus a not-so-perfect halt will be the difference between first and second.

2013 Maclay Finals (equitation class, judged on rider), Lillie Keenan (current US Team rider):

2014 Maclay Ride-Off, top two competitors switched horses:

I don't think either the US or UK system is "right" or "better," they're just very different.

@fetlock, the class described in that article is the Corinthian class. It's very rare these days but still run, and is judged to the highest and most traditional standards of hunting turnout (sewn-in bridles, string girths, fresh sandwiches in cases, flasks, traditional attire, etc). I've only seen Corinthian offered at Upperville (oldest horse show in the US, in the heart of hunt country) in recent years. I believe hunt trials are still offering a Corinthian style turnout class.

I just caught Lillie Keenan's ride at in round 1 at the World Champs and it was beautiful - very smooth and balanced, and when the horse lost a touch of balance she was there to bring him back. Really lovely to watch.

 

[RachelFerd]

I'm glad it wasn't just me..!! I'd be very happy to ride such a smooth round with such a stable lower leg. I didn't see any moments when she was unbalanced and it was far preferable to flappy legs and unbalanced ponies that you see at many shows in this country.

As Sibelius says, it's a very different riding tradition. I wish children here were as well-drilled in flatwork as the equitation children in the US, there'd be some far nicer sights at smaller shows!

I just think it is criminal that we've got a load of tiny showjumping shows with kids kicking and pulling their ponies around 50cm courses flat out who are rewarded with winning. If ONLY we had the focus on style and equitation that exists in America. Speed jump-offs shouldn't come into play until much further into a rider's education.

 

[teapot]

I have to agree. I saw absolutely nothing wrong with that round at all. A happy pony and a balanced rider.
Was starting to think I was watching a different clip to everyone else!

I’ve seen far worse out showing in the UK, or dare I say it at BE by adults who should know better.

I think US showing gets perhaps more criticism because it’s so different to the UK. That said, think it was HOYS who posted a vid of a littlie riding a Shetland on Instagram and the abuse that got from those in mainland Europe was interesting…

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

There are vile practises both sides of the pond, lets be careful we aren't throwing stones in that lovely glass house we reside in. It's not a competition.

 

[dogatemysalad]

Husband was on a work trip in Texas and his hosts took him to watch a kids rodeo. Some of those kids were seriously impressive. The skill of the riders and ponies was unbelievable.

 

[Peglo]

Is that straps on her legs to hold her legs to the saddle? I can’t figure it out. I’ve seen people do that with very small children but doesn’t seem like that rider would need them. (Not that I think anyone should be strapped to a horse to ride)

 

[SibeliusMB]

Is that straps on her legs to hold her legs to the saddle? I can’t figure it out. I’ve seen people do that with very small children but doesn’t seem like that rider would need them. (Not that I think anyone should be strapped to a horse to ride)

Those are garter straps, meant to keep the knee patch on the jods from rotating around the leg. They are standard turnout in North America for children not yet in tall/long boots. They do not connect the rider to the saddle.

 

[Caol Ila]

I just think it is criminal that we've got a load of tiny showjumping shows with kids kicking and pulling their ponies around 50cm courses flat out who are rewarded with winning. If ONLY we had the focus on style and equitation that exists in America. Speed jump-offs shouldn't come into play until much further into a rider's education.

Yeah, I've thought that. Teach these kids some eq! "Schooling" for some of the kids at my barn consists of going into the arena and galloping laps around it. At some of the little schooling shows, there's always a few kids who will whack the pony on the shoulder with a crop before every fence. What's up with that?

The US hunter/eq circuit can be a little over-the-top and doesn't always have clean hands, either. There was a whole exposee in the NY Times a few years ago, unearthing trainers who were drugging ponies to make them into more placid kids' hunters. And some novice owner friends in Connecticut (the dad had been a college buddy of my dad -- they'd bought daughter the pony) boarded their first pony at a hunter barn. It turned out that the trainer was doing things like depriving ponies of water and tying their heads to their girths for like an hour after a ride, to make them calmer for the kids to lope around the ring. The mom said, "This doesn't feel right to me, but I don't know anything about horses and the trainer is the expert..." Nope, it is not right. Horse-world lesson #1: just because someone has experience and hangs out their shingle as a pro doesn't mean they aren't an a*rsehole. They moved the horse to a better barn after I expressed my horror.

I also think the trainer/barn cult thing is a little weird and makes for very dependant horsepeople. Adults as well as kids. I like doing my own thing, taking lessons as and when, so I avoided any barn that forced you into a program -- there are plenty of 'normal' boarding stables/livery yards -- but they were certainly around.

That all said, there are humane and ethical ways to train hunters/eq horses, and I often enjoyed the standard of riding when I would watch the odd schooling show. Kids who could balance their ponies around corners, get the striding right, land on the correct lead. None of this flailing at ponies with legs and whip, or hanging off their mouth while they take everything long or chipped. And no one seems to learn how to properly release over a fence! I myself never got beyond the crest release, but dammit, I did learn that so I would not catch the horse in the mouth.

Swings and roundabouts, really.

 

[Peglo]

Those are garter straps, meant to keep the knee patch on the jods from rotating around the leg. They are standard turnout in North America for children not yet in tall/long boots. They do not connect the rider to the saddle.

ah thank you. that makes more sense but couldn’t figure out what it was. ?

 

[RachelFerd]

Yeah, I've thought that. Teach these kids some eq! "Schooling" for some of the kids at my barn consists of going into the arena and galloping laps around it. At some of the little schooling shows, there's always a few kids who will whack the pony on the shoulder with a crop before every fence. What's up with that?

The US hunter/eq circuit can be a little over-the-top and doesn't always have clean hands, either. There was a whole exposee in the NY Times a few years ago, unearthing trainers who were drugging ponies to make them into more placid kids' hunters. And some novice owner friends in Connecticut (the dad had been a college buddy of my dad -- they'd bought daughter the pony) boarded their first pony at a hunter barn. It turned out that the trainer was doing things like depriving ponies of water and tying their heads to their girths for like an hour after a ride, to make them calmer for the kids to lope around the ring. The mom said, "This doesn't feel right to me, but I don't know anything about horses and the trainer is the expert..." Nope, it is not right. Horse-world lesson #1: just because someone has experience and hangs out their shingle as a pro doesn't mean they aren't an a*rsehole. They moved the horse to a better barn after I expressed my horror.

I also think the trainer/barn cult thing is a little weird and makes for very dependant horsepeople. Adults as well as kids. I like doing my own thing, taking lessons as and when, so I avoided any barn that forced you into a program -- there are plenty of 'normal' boarding stables/livery yards -- but they were certainly around.

That all said, there are humane and ethical ways to train hunters/eq horses, and I often enjoyed the standard of riding when I would watch the odd schooling show. Kids who could balance their ponies around corners, get the striding right, land on the correct lead. None of this flailing at ponies with legs and whip, or hanging off their mouth while they take everything long or chipped. And no one seems to learn how to properly release over a fence! I myself never got beyond the crest release, but dammit, I did learn that so I would not catch the horse in the mouth.

Swings and roundabouts, really.

I think there's probably a happy place somewhere in the middle of it all ? I'd just like to see the UK system reward equitation instead of speed and pure faults.

 

[Caol Ila]

I think there's probably a happy place somewhere in the middle of it all ? I'd just like to see the UK system reward equitation instead of speed and pure faults.

A happy medium would be living the dream. For the horses. I think one of the issues with the US is that hunters and eq has oodles of money in it, and in any horse sport, people get weird when there are oodles of cash at stake. There seemed to be less weird stuff going on in amateur-dressage-land, because the big winner of most shows might recieve a coffee mug and a bag of horse treats.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Yeah, I didn't want to say it, but I've been wondering if they still teach any sort of release over fences. I don't want to be unkind, but I've even seen it on here and in my head I'm shouting "Put your freak'n hands forward! Release!" Yeah, not every jump is glamorous, but when I see riders consistently not doing any kind of release, it's a head scratcher.

 

[Caol Ila]

Yeah, I didn't want to say it, but I've been wondering if they still teach any sort of release over fences. I don't want to be unkind, but I've even seen it on here and in my head I'm shouting "Put your freak'n hands forward! Release!" Yeah, not every jump is glamorous, but when I see riders consistently not doing any kind of release, it's a head scratcher.

My n = 5 observation of railbirding friends' jumping lessons is no. It's crazy! It was drilled into me when I learned to jump because hitting the horse in the mouth was a cardinal sin, and the instructor would almost murder you if you did it.

 

[SibeliusMB]

hitting the horse in the mouth was a cardinal sin, and the instructor would almost murder you if you did it.

Guaranteed way for a rider to lose their reins AND their stirrups and be relegated to jumping grids with no hands for the next six weeks.

 

[fetlock]

I just think it is criminal that we've got a load of tiny showjumping shows with kids kicking and pulling their ponies around 50cm courses flat out who are rewarded with winning. If ONLY we had the focus on style and equitation that exists in America. Speed jump-offs shouldn't come into play until much further into a rider's education.

no idea if this is still a thing but can recall equitation jumping at RC level back in the 80s with team qualification for the RC championships.

 

[The Xmas Furry]

I think there's probably a happy place somewhere in the middle of it all ? I'd just like to see the UK system reward equitation instead of speed and pure faults.

They do, in the whp classes. Style and manner of going carry marks ?

 

[RachelFerd]

They do, in the whp classes. Style and manner of going carry marks ?

Yeah, but the WHP classes are a bit niche compared to the volumes of unaff SJ out there.

 

[The Xmas Furry]

Yeah, but the WHP classes are a bit niche compared to the volumes of unaff SJ out there.

Perhaps, but at affiliated level the whp classes are often rammed, which is what I was comparing to further back.

 

[clinkerbuilt]

My n = 5 observation of railbirding friends' jumping lessons is no. It's crazy! It was drilled into me when I learned to jump because hitting the horse in the mouth was a cardinal sin, and the instructor would almost murder you if you did it.

Release was drilled into me 30 years ago and same again now from my preferred instructor (though not as consistently in other places, I've noticed, which baffles me: surely it's the first thing you need to think about if you want to keep your horse jumping...?)

 

[shortstuff99]

no idea if this is still a thing but can recall equitation jumping at RC level back in the 80s with team qualification for the RC championships.

Yes that is still going. Called style jumping. They've changed the rules abit though that you can now use a martingale, any bit and spurs. Was previous snaffle only, no spurs.

 

[SEL]

Guaranteed way for a rider to lose their reins AND their stirrups and be relegated to jumping grids with no hands for the next six weeks.

oh yes! And on the trickiest pony your RI could find as well

I'm still a pro at slipping my reins if I get left behind for a dodgy take off and gathering them back up again before the next fence.

 

[BunnyDog]

Just so we're clear a couple points to clarify:

We have "BAD" riding in every country in the world under every style of teaching there is.

We have "AMAZING" riding in every country in the world under every style of teaching as well.

In the USA we are all trying to work on a better way in the low level jumpers to encourage education over ribbons for atrocious, and inappropriate riding where speed and rosettes are the ONLY perceivable goal. We use optimum time classes more but by and large we're all still pulling our hair out looking for better solutions.

With regard to the releases....I wanted to touch on this since I use an automatic release and if you're not aware of it's existence it absolutely can look like no release, and I am working on increasing how much rein I give over the fence myself. Work in process, but still. A girl on TikTok the other day asked why I never release. I do, just not in the same way as everyone other rider.

There are crest releases, which was quickly condemned after it was created as being less effective for the end goals of what people were trying to accomplish

The direct release

The automatic release

And I see a lot of European videos where the riders are on greener horses and they are technically releasing but their hands are almost fixed on either side of the neck right in front of the D rings. It seems like an effort to train the greenies to keep their heads lower. But that's a guess.

Each release has its place. Each release can be done correctly or incorrectly. Even just googling a little to explain here there are SOO many articles about these. Like a lot with a ton of opinions.


Em