Just when you thought your show was expensive...article from USA re: Pony Finals

sbloom

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In this country we are obsessed with defensive riding positions in ponies that are essentially running away/running through the bridle.

Any physics dictate that most of what constitutes a defensive position causes the horse to run more because you can't get it balanced properly sitting like that. Get off the cantle, get over your feet on the flat, and you might have more control - relying on jamming feet forwards is never going to help except in an emergency. Laws of physics and biomechanics.
 
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- relying on jamming feet forwards is never going to help except in an emergency. Laws of physics and biomechanics.

And that's what we call "foot to dash" in the racing world ? sticking your feet forward to the "dashboard" of your horse and leaning as much weight through your body onto your reins whilst praying the horse stops ?
 

GoldenWillow

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I'm another who enjoys seeing how competing is in other countries. One thing I noticed, why the standing martingales on them? I couldn't see the Instagram video to see if it was also wearing one.
 

SibeliusMB

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I'm another who enjoys seeing how competing is in other countries. One thing I noticed, why the standing martingales on them? I couldn't see the Instagram video to see if it was also wearing one.
Standing martingales are regularly worn by many show hunters in North America. Quite like how over here it seems like everything goes in a flash and running martingale.

Very few horses at that level truly need them, many people feel it's part of the standard turnout, or they like how visually it breaks up the neck. Some hunters don't wear them. When properly adjusted, standings do not interfere in any way with the horse's balance during jumping.
 

GoldenWillow

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Thank you, the flash thing over here drives me mad! Interesting to see the differences in tack fashions. The rule has now changed but standing martingale were never allowed for juniors in BS, although I'm going back a few years.
 

Fieldlife

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Just so we're clear a couple points to clarify:

We have "BAD" riding in every country in the world under every style of teaching there is.

We have "AMAZING" riding in every country in the world under every style of teaching as well.

In the USA we are all trying to work on a better way in the low level jumpers to encourage education over ribbons for atrocious, and inappropriate riding where speed and rosettes are the ONLY perceivable goal. We use optimum time classes more but by and large we're all still pulling our hair out looking for better solutions.

With regard to the releases....I wanted to touch on this since I use an automatic release and if you're not aware of it's existence it absolutely can look like no release, and I am working on increasing how much rein I give over the fence myself. Work in process, but still. A girl on TikTok the other day asked why I never release. I do, just not in the same way as everyone other rider.

There are crest releases, which was quickly condemned after it was created as being less effective for the end goals of what people were trying to accomplish

The direct release

The automatic release

And I see a lot of European videos where the riders are on greener horses and they are technically releasing but their hands are almost fixed on either side of the neck right in front of the D rings. It seems like an effort to train the greenies to keep their heads lower. But that's a guess.

Each release has its place. Each release can be done correctly or incorrectly. Even just googling a little to explain here there are SOO many articles about these. Like a lot with a ton of opinions.


Em

in simple terms what is an automatic release?
 
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Thank you, the flash thing over here drives me mad! Interesting to see the differences in tack fashions. The rule has now changed but standing martingale were never allowed for juniors in BS, although I'm going back a few years.

There is one "producer" near me who slags off anyone who has anything but a snaffle in their horses mouth yet routinely straps the mouths tight tight shut with flashes and grackles ? you call her out on it and you get deleted and banned ?
 

ycbm

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in simple terms what is an automatic release?

According to Wiki, mouth hand elbow in a straight line as per my avatar. I do an automatic release, who knew? When I learnt to jump it was the only release taught, but it was taught as "follow the mouth".

Unlike BD, I've never been accused of not releasing at all, which I'm guessing is because we've never really had the crest release they have in the US, where the release is so obvious because of the placement of the hands up to the top of the neck.
.
 

TPO

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There is one "producer" near me who slags off anyone who has anything but a snaffle in their horses mouth yet routinely straps the mouths tight tight shut with flashes and grackles ? you call her out on it and you get deleted and banned ?

Now I want to know who this is! ??
 

SibeliusMB

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in simple terms what is an automatic release?
An automatic release (also known as "jumping out of hand" or "following hand") is when the rider's hands move forward and down alongside the neck over the jump, ideally creating a straight line from bit to elbow. The auto release offers the horse the most freedom over the top of the fence. This is the most advanced of the releases, and requires independent hands and a strong core/base of support from the lower leg.

The crest release is taught in North America. It was conceived as a stepping stone to the automatic release. It was developed to keep horses from getting their teeth ripped out as riders were learning to jump. However, many riders never graduate to the auto release and end up just doing crest releases. Still, better than catching the horse in the mouth.

The long crest release is usually taught first. Hands go about halfway up the neck, press into the top of the neck, and novice riders are also taught to grab mane. As the rider's base of support gets stronger, they can graduate to a short crest release. Later, if they do their homework, the short crest release naturally transitions to an automatic release by dropping the hand down and slightly forward.

The long crest release:
FB_IMG_1660764291422.jpg

Short crest release:
FB_IMG_1660764321042.jpg
FB_IMG_1660764337771.jpg

The automatic release:
FB_IMG_1660764184333.jpg
FB_IMG_1660764234035.jpg

FB_IMG_1660764084165.jpgFB_IMG_1660764169125.jpgView attachment 97836
 
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TPO

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It starts with an S finishes with an H and a has 2 A's and an R in the middle. It ends in oak den ? I am glad she rarely shows now as she was a right royal pain in the backside thinking she owned the entire show ground and could do as she pleased ?

???

Probably not wise for me to comment on a public forum but yeah... ?
 

Caol Ila

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An automatic release (also known as "jumping out of hand" or "following hand") is when the rider's hands move forward and down alongside the neck over the jump, ideally creating a straight line from bit to elbow. The auto release offers the horse the most freedom over the top of the fence. This is the most advanced of the releases, and requires independent hands and a strong core/base of support from the lower leg.

The crest release is taught in North America. It was conceived as a stepping stone to the automatic release. It was developed to keep horses from getting their teeth ripped out as riders were learning to jump. However, many riders never graduate to the auto release and end up just doing crest releases. Still, better than catching the horse in the mouth.

The long crest release is usually taught first. Hands go about halfway up the neck, press into the top of the neck, and novice riders are also taught to grab mane. As the rider's base of support gets stronger, they can graduate to a short crest release. Later, if they do their homework, the short crest release naturally transitions to an automatic release by dropping the hand down and slightly forward.

The long crest release:
View attachment 97828

Short crest release:
View attachment 97832
View attachment 97833

The automatic release:
View attachment 97831
View attachment 97830

View attachment 97834View attachment 97835View attachment 97836

I never got beyond the long crest release in my jumping skills, and I am okay with that. Grab mane and point!

Fin and I observed a jumping clinic today after our hack. Stood near the outdoor, watching for about 10 minutes. He was fascinated, and I was thinking about curling into a sad ball. Trainer said nothing about releases of any sort. The kids just winged it, because they had no idea that there are actually techniques - and grabbing mane, or the crest release, is so user friendly. Trainer would yell "kick, kick kick!" at the kids as they approached the fences. Kids would flail at the horses' sides. Do whatever with their hands. No one cared. Horses would sling around the corners counterbent, and the wrong lead, totally strung out, and the answer to getting them to the next fence was "Kick harder."

"Hunter eq, this is not," I said to Fin. He didn't know what that was, but he agreed. Oy.
 
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CanteringCarrot

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I never got beyond the long crest release in my jumping skills, and I am okay with that. Grab mane and point!

Fin and I observed a jumping clinic today after our hack. Stood near the outdoor, watching for about 10 minutes. He was fascinated, and I was thinking about curling into a sad ball. Trainer said nothing about releases of any sort. The kids just winged it, because they had no idea that there are actually techniques - and grabbing mane, or the crest release, is so user friendly. Trainer would yell "kick, kick kick!" at the kids as they approached the fences. Kids would flail at the horses' sides. Do whatever with their hands. No one cared. Horses would sling around the corners counterbent, and the wrong lead, totally strung out, and the answer to getting them to the next fence was "Kick harder."

"Hunter eq, this is not," I said to Fin. He didn't know what that was, but he agreed. Oy.

Unfortunately, that's the style in a lot of the UK. At least it still was a few years back. It's very "rough and ready" and people don't realize that there is more to it than just getting the horse over the jump.

As for releases, I'm sorry but if I can see pulling on the bit, or nearly half of the bit coming out of the corners of your horses mouth due to pressure on the reins, that isn't a release. Just generally speaking here, not about anyone in specific, but it does happen as a part of some people's regular jumping style.

It also just doesn't look right, IMO, when your hands are planted just in front of or at the withers and your upper is over/well infront of your hands. Not sure if I'm describing it well, but yeah. Sometimes people also need to close their hip angle and l not just go up out of the saddle with a somewhat straight body, but there was also the extreme in the hunter/jumper would where people were essentially throwing themselves at the horses ears/laying on the neck. I think there's a nice middle ground there.

Edit: forgive my typos, please ?
 
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LEC

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I watch a lot of kids ride and think they ride better than ever. We used to be taught a more forward seat jumping but it led to huge issues with jumping before the movement. Now it a bit more upright and looks a lot better.

The one big difference between USA and UK is that nobody in UK knows distances. They just are not drilled and taught. How many yards/ft for a trotting pole, how many yards on a double etc how does 10ft distance on a grid impact how you approach it vs a standard 12ft?

How many feet should a standard human walk stride be for walking a distance etc
 

clinkerbuilt

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I watch a lot of kids ride and think they ride better than ever. We used to be taught a more forward seat jumping but it led to huge issues with jumping before the movement. Now it a bit more upright and looks a lot better.

The one big difference between USA and UK is that nobody in UK knows distances. They just are not drilled and taught. How many yards/ft for a trotting pole, how many yards on a double etc how does 10ft distance on a grid impact how you approach it vs a standard 12ft?

How many feet should a standard human walk stride be for walking a distance etc

This was a kids' "learn to jump" sample from (?) over 30 years ago (ignore the feet please), and I agree there's more emphasis on hip balance now than auto "forward".

I'm thankful to have found instructors now who habitually emphasise release, approach lines, balance and stride counts. I remember in the Olympics commentary last year that Lucinda Green (!) commented on how much hunter classes in the US had improved the jumping form coming through to competition, so there's an awareness there...
(eta the actual snap)
IMG_9195.jpg
 

SibeliusMB

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The one big difference between USA and UK is that nobody in UK knows distances. They just are not drilled and taught. How many yards/ft for a trotting pole, how many yards on a double etc how does 10ft distance on a grid impact how you approach it vs a standard 12ft?

How many feet should a standard human walk stride be for walking a distance etc
I hate to agree with this but unfortunately this has been my experience so far in the UK, and the reason why I don't do grid schools with the yard staff anymore. The first grid school I was asked to trot into a 21 or 22 ft one-stride....impossible to do safely unless you're riding a 19h freak of nature. I asked it be shortened three feet, so she did....and then she also shortened the second one-stride at the end of the grid, which was set to a 1.10 oxer. :rolleyes:

In another grid school with another staff member, I asked for a bounce to a one to a one, as we used to use that pretty regularly in our weekly grid schools back home in the US to "reset" my horse's jump and get him to slow down. He gets very ahead of himself mentally, and when he's rushing in his head, he rushes with his feet. The "trainer" refused to do the bounce and then informed me "bounces are never used to slow horses down. They're used to get horses jumping off their hocks..." and continued to explain that to me like I was a five year old child who had never jumped before. I think he was genuinely trying to be polite, but I was appalled by the condescending tone of voice. :mad:

The last (and I mean LAST) grid school I did with a third member of yard staff, they set four trot poles only 2.5-3 feet apart from another. That would be fine if I was riding a pony....My horse usually needs 4-5 feet between trot poles for it to be comfortable for him. He bumbled his way through them and I asked her to please roll them out, but she declined, saying that this is supposed to get him to lift up his feet and elevate....WHAT!? Maybe I was educated on another planet but no...if I want my horse to develop push over poles, I need to raise either (or both) ends of the poles. I've never been told to shorten the trot poles and expect the horse to just go up instead of out. Sig got so frustrated in these grid schools because he tries very, very hard, and when he feels like he's making a mistake or being continually forced to jump the same thing over, and over, and over, it just spins him up. So for his sake I've gone back to what I know, and am shopping around for another jump trainer to bring in.

I am still very impressed by the independence of most riders here in the UK and the workmanlike attitude I've seen. I've seen some truly inspiring riding. There are issues, and I do agree with others about the releasing over the fence (neckstraps are a wonderful thing!), but as said before, every system has good and bad examples of riding.
 
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Fieldlife

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I hate to agree with this but unfortunately this has been my experience so far in the UK, and the reason why I don't do grid schools with the yard staff anymore. The first grid school I was asked to trot into a 21 or 22 ft one-stride....impossible to do safely unless you're riding a 19h freak of nature. I asked it be shortened three feet, so she did....and then she also shortened the second one-stride at the end of the grid, which was set to a 1.10 oxer. :rolleyes:

In another grid school with another staff member, I asked for a bounce to a one to a one, as we used to use that pretty regularly in our weekly grid schools back home in the US to "reset" my horse's jump and get him to slow down. He gets very ahead of himself mentally, and when he's rushing in his head, he rushes with his feet. The "trainer" refused to do the bounce and then informed me "bounces are never used to slow horses down. They're used to get horses jumping off their hocks..." and continued to explain that to me like I was a five year old child who had never jumped before. I think he was genuinely trying to be polite, but I was appalled by the condescending tone of voice. :mad:

The last (and I mean LAST) grid school I did with a third member of yard staff, they set four trot poles only 2.5-3 feet apart from another. That would be fine if I was riding a pony....My horse usually needs 4 feet between trot poles for it to be comfortable for him. He bumbled his way through them and I asked her to please roll them out, but she declined, saying that this is supposed to get him to lift up his feet and elevate....WHAT!? Maybe I was educated on another planet but no...if I want my horse to develop push over poles, I need to raise either (or both) ends of the poles. I've never been told to shorten the trot poles and expect the horse to just go up instead of out. Sig got so frustrated in these grid schools because he tries very, very hard, and when he feels like he's making a mistake or being continually forced to jump the same thing over, and over, and over, it just spins him up. So for his sake I've gone back to what I know, and am shopping around for another jump trainer to bring in.

I am still very impressed by the independence of most riders here in the UK and the workmanlike attitude I've seen. I've seen some truly inspiring riding. There are issues, and I do agree with others about the releasing over the fence (neckstraps are a wonderful thing!), but as said before, every system has good and bad examples of riding.

Thats interesting. I don’t jump. But I do trot poles with my 16.3hh warmblood.

Guide I use is

Walk poles:

2½’ to 3’ feet( 76-91cm) apart or 80- 90cm

My feet size 7 feet (pigeon steps)

2.6-3.1 or 2.75 to 3.22


Trot poles:

4½’ to 5’ (137-152cm) apart

My feet 4.5 to 5.2
 

LEC

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I see world class trainers or trainers who have competed at a good level so we discuss distances a lot. The impact and changes that they make to a horse. It’s a real thing over here not to educate yourself in them though. I know Lucinda green is obsessed that we should ride by feel but you also need to know your distances to know what canter you need for the fence. Is it short/long etc especially now with a lot of curved lines. Ingrid Klimke had a tape measure for her distances! That’s how precise she was.
 

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Ok so I came back to give @Fieldlife the link to this video. It's the best I could find in terms of seeing what an automatic release is and how a well known US trainer, Bernie Traurig, teaches it.


I've seen a LOT of diversity in releases in the last 5 years. I am the show jumping steward at the Retired racehorse Project's Thoroughbred Makeover competition and I promise, especially last year when we held the '20 and '21 classes competition in one week long extravaganza, there are MANY variations on releases. Likewise at my shows in the 1m classes on up to the 1.40's I still see some big differences.

Including a few pics from my own riding and you can see while it's roughly the same there are some differences
 

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SibeliusMB

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@Fieldlife you are spot on with your measurements. I am sure the yard staff are now convinced I'm That Crazy American that thinks she knows everything, but I can't keep subjecting my well educated horse to this stuff and expect him to not be impacted by it. I have never, never, ever seen walk poles being used as trot poles "but the horse just has to trot higher." ....What.

I see world class trainers or trainers who have competed at a good level so we discuss distances a lot. The impact and changes that they make to a horse. It’s a real thing over here not to educate yourself in them though. I know Lucinda green is obsessed that we should ride by feel but you also need to know your distances to know what canter you need for the fence. Is it short/long etc especially now with a lot of curved lines. Ingrid Klimke had a tape measure for her distances! That’s how precise she was.
Agreed. Distances really are necessary for a rider to make the best decisions on course for their horse (if it's a long five and you're on a smaller strided horse, knowing to package up and wait for the six, etc). You can absolutely ride by feel and be well disciplined in your distances. Plus, a lot of courses involved unrelated distances, where feel is important. Good riders need both skills, not one or the other.
 

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@Fieldlife you are spot on with your measurements. I am sure the yard staff are now convinced I'm That Crazy American that thinks she knows everything, but I can't keep subjecting my well educated horse to this stuff and expect him to not be impacted by it. I have never, never, ever seen walk poles being used as trot poles "but the horse just has to trot higher." ....What.

@SibeliusMB Chad managed to fit his huge self into my spaced and measured 3 trot rails at 4'6" at a canter, and cantered them all 1 stride in there. Swear to God!!!


I wish I had video. He had trotted it a couple times but decided to switch it up. Ha ha ha

Em
 

CanteringCarrot

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Re the poles thing and distance, I think shortening and lengthening the distance between poles can be a decent exercise, when done correctly.

Sometimes I'll set up 3 or so sets of poles (3 to 5 poles) around the school, and some will encourage my horse to lengthen, some to shorten, and some in the middle/normal. Raised poles have their place in this too.

Setting poles just out of my horses comfort zone taught him more about lengthening at the trot, while also having some level of suspension in his gait. He doesn't do this naturally ? so it depends on what you're trying to accomplish.
 
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