Kali is out of sorts :(

[PolarSkye]

A month today he has his first competition (UA dressage) after 11 months hiatus following a suspensory injury and we've got him looking/feeling stronger and fitter - he's not lame, he is supple and relatively free (he's 16 and has some arthritis now so he doesn't move/look like a four-year-old any more - at least not when he first comes out) but over the past month or so he has dropped a lot of weight/condition and just has a bit of a "meh" attitude. He isn't chucking his toys out of the pram totally - but his brain isn't fully engaged when he's in the school . . . he's trying, but it's half hearted. On the ground he has become quite grumpy and bolshy, which isn't like him - he put his teeth on me (not a bite, but a definite gesture) when I was leading him in from the field the other day.

I can't work it out. His coat is lovely and shiny, his eye is bright, his gums are good. He is eating well and is getting mountains of good quality hay and haylage, alongside Copra/D&H ERS Pellets (packed full of oil), molasses free chaff and linseed - not to mention turmeric (yes, I know), extra magnesium and pure MSM.

He wasn't this lean when he was hunting!

His teeth were done just before Christmas (and they needed doing), he isn't stressing in his stable, he sees the physio every four weeks and she hasn't found any issues and he is sound.

I have some theories:

1) He could be a bit wormy . . . although I worm regularly, he's out with a horse who has probably never been wormed (I wormed him before I put Kal out with him) on pasture that has always had non-wormed horses on it and has never been poo picked. I'm moving yards in a couple of weeks so will be worming Pops before I move him (not much point doing it before then).

2) I have been rather poorly so wasn't taking care of him regularly for about five days/he had a variety of other people looking after him and he went off his food.

3) I am a little stressed about being on current yard/the impending move so perhaps he is picking something up from me.

4) Although I have been rugging him up (he is clipped) perhaps he is feeling the cold a little more this year due to his age and I have been under-rugging him.

5) Although he isn't coughing, doesn't have a snotty nose and is eating up well, he could be suffering from a low-grade virus and fighting it is robbing him of condition.

6) He's a bit school sour - don't get me wrong, we vary his work and he hacks a couple of days a week, does flatwork under saddle three times, is lunged once and has one day off . . but, although he is doing more pole work, he hasn't jumped (aside from a couple of pops back in October) for nearly a year - and he LOVES to jump. This wouldn't account for the weight loss, but it would explain his "meh" attitude in the school.

I realize you're not vets, haven't seen him, don't know him, etc., but is there anything I could have missed?

For now, I am rugging him more than I normally would, upping his hay/haylage and food rations and keeping an eye on him. As I said, I will worm him with a good broad spectrum (probably Panacur Five Day) just before I move him. Beyond that, I sort of feel that if we move him and (taking into account further possible weight loss due to the move) he doesn't pick up, I should have the vet take bloods.

Workwise, we're going to try and change things up a bit more - today he will go in the school, and after a decent warm up in walk (it's cooooold) N will get off his back and just send him forward, forward, forward and then he'll do some canter poles and pop a small cross pole at the end - something fun and energizing to get his brain engaged and buzzing rather than working on improving the walk, or the halt, or the long and low, etc.

What else can we do?

P

 

[humblepie]

The losing weight, nipping etc sounds a bit like could be ulcers but if he is eating lots of fibre and out quite a bit, that would I think be strange. I think some of them do need more rugs as they get a bit older although 16 is old. I know my 19 year old is more rugged up at present even though unclipped and he has never been a horse to feel the cold in the past. Poor Kali, hope you get to grips with the cause.

 

[bouncing_ball]

I'd get a view from a good bodywork (physio / osteo / massage / chiro / bowen) and see what they say. Are all rugs comfortable? No signs of pain anywhere when you run your hands firmly over him. Sounds like some kind of pain to me - whether muscle / joint / guts / teeth etc. I'd deal with the move first, and book a body worker to see him fairly soon after.

Panacur guard is a wormer with some resistance against it, and doesnt cover everything.

Worming with Pramox / Equest + Equitape - would cover ALL types of worms.

 

[PolarSkye]

The losing weight, nipping etc sounds a bit like could be ulcers but if he is eating lots of fibre and out quite a bit, that would I think be strange. I think some of them do need more rugs as they get a bit older although 16 is old. I know my 19 year old is more rugged up at present even though unclipped and he has never been a horse to feel the cold in the past. Poor Kali, hope you get to grips with the cause.

I treat/feed him as though he has ulcers - hence the high fibre/low starch/sugar diet. He has always been girthy - hence treating him/feeding him as though he has ulcers. Re the rugging, I've rugged him up more this winter than I ever have . . . and, despite being clipped, he hasn't grown as much of a coat - last year he was clipped three times, he will have his last (third) clip next week and only to remove cat hairs and because he is going out to compete - he hasn't really grown anything since his last clip in early December.

It'[s not just the weight loss that's worrying me, it's his attitude to work (he loves to work) . . . he did pick up yesterday when we put poles out and kept moving them so that he had to think about where to put his feet . . . I'm wondering if part of his problem is that he's a bit bored/sour.

P

 

[PolarSkye]

I'd get a view from a good bodywork (physio / osteo / massage / chiro / bowen) and see what they say. Are all rugs comfortable? No signs of pain anywhere when you run your hands firmly over him. Sounds like some kind of pain to me - whether muscle / joint / guts / teeth etc. I'd deal with the move first, and book a body worker to see him fairly soon after.

Panacur guard is a wormer with some resistance against it, and doesnt cover everything.

Worming with Pramox / Equest + Equitape - would cover ALL types of worms.

He sees a (vet-approved) physio regularly - she has been coming every three weeks until Christmas when we extended it to four and after seeing him on this past Saturday is happy to push it out to every five. It isn't his teeth, he isn't sore anywhere in his body, his saddles fit him, he has a touch of arthritis in his right hock but it isn't horrific and he works through it.

He had Equest in October . . . would be wanting to give him something else to limit resistance.

P

 

[Scarlett]

My mare was the same - just a bit 'meh' and grumpy. Put it down to a virus as everything else checked out ok, gave her a couple of weeks of Aloe vera (magic stuff!) and she is shiny, cheerful and has put on weight again.

I would worm count before worming. Don't fill him needlessly with chemicals, you could make him worse.

 

[JenBlues]

Have you had the vets run a blood test? My old boy had spells of this when he was anaemic. Picked up easily on a blood test and treated with an iron supplement. Hope he perks up soon

 

[PolarSkye]

My mare was the same - just a bit 'meh' and grumpy. Put it down to a virus as everything else checked out ok, gave her a couple of weeks of Aloe vera (magic stuff!) and she is shiny, cheerful and has put on weight again.

I would worm count before worming. Don't fill him needlessly with chemicals, you could make him worse.

I had thought about worm counting - do the labs give you a break down of which parasites they find, if they find any, or do they just report on total eggs found?

P

 

[PolarSkye]

Have you had the vets run a blood test? My old boy had spells of this when he was anaemic. Picked up easily on a blood test and treated with an iron supplement. Hope he perks up soon

Not yet no - thought I'd move him and see if he picked up and then run bloods. Tbh, there are so many variables here (see above) that I'd rather not go straight to vet before we move him and see if he improves.

He doesn't look like a rescue case - but he is definitely lighter/leaner. And then there are the behavioural changes.

P

 

[HaffiesRock]

I had thought about worm counting - do the labs give you a break down of which parasites they find, if they find any, or do they just report on total eggs found?

P

I use Westgate labs and they give you a full report on everything they have found. I have never had eggs found, but see their posts on Facebook daily, showing what has been found. I would highly recommend them.

I hope you find the cause soon and it is nothing more than a bit of grumpyitis due to the winter.

 

[Luci07]

Without pressing human emotion onto your horse, I have found a couple of mine did seem to get sour when they are doing the groundwork and not getting out to the parties. Nothing I could put my finger on but just not quite right. Mine was getting like this and then had a weekend of jumping and his mood completely changed. When you are out competing, you regularly "bottom out" your horse but in the winter, we can't really do this. It's another reason why I am so keen to get mine out hunting!

 

[PolarSkye]

I use Westgate labs and they give you a full report on everything they have found. I have never had eggs found, but see their posts on Facebook daily, showing what has been found. I would highly recommend them.

I hope you find the cause soon and it is nothing more than a bit of grumpyitis due to the winter.

Have used Westgate before, just couldn't remember whether they reported which eggs (if any) they had found.

Yes, I hope the grumpiness is just down to him feeling the cold (he doesn't "do" cold) . . . and that by feeding him more he picks up - going to add Speedibeet to the Copra and think about giving him lunch - we did this last year when he was hunting but it could be that he just needs the extra calories - there's not much grass in the field, I am putting hay out but the other three aren't letting him have any and he's such a pushover that he'd rather go without/have a quiet life.

P

 

[Happy Hunter]

I would go for 2,3,5 and 6.

Dr Green will hopefully cure all these - But like you say it's hard to know exactly.

 

[PolarSkye]

Without pressing human emotion onto your horse, I have found a couple of mine did seem to get sour when they are doing the groundwork and not getting out to the parties. Nothing I could put my finger on but just not quite right. Mine was getting like this and then had a weekend of jumping and his mood completely changed. When you are out competing, you regularly "bottom out" your horse but in the winter, we can't really do this. It's another reason why I am so keen to get mine out hunting!

I do think that at least part of his problem is that he's bored/a little school sour. He doesn't really enjoy hacking alone - there isn't anyone to hack with at current yard - and his reward/chill out has always been a fun jump in the school. While I don't want to make him sore/overdo it, I'll be curious to see what a little jumpies in the school does for him today. Also, he'll be having a ride in a lorry soon (when we move) and that might perk him up a little .

He does love parties.

P

 

[PolarSkye]

I would go for 2,3,5 and 6.

Dr Green will hopefully cure all these - But like you say it's hard to know exactly.

I do think that his mental state has something to do with the weight loss/attitude . . . and he certainly picks up on my mood (never known a horse so sensitive). There has also been a lot of change on the yard recently - two new ponies in the space of a month (only one of them lives in the barn, but he'll be aware of the other one) and he has a new neighbour because we turned the feed room (the space right next to his stable with Loddon-style bars) into a stable and moved a mare in there - he loves her, but still it's a change in routine/circumstances.

I'm not worried with a capital W, but I am concerned and wanting to keep a weather eye on him . . .

P

 

[Tiddlypom]

Didn't you put him on Turmeric recently? Did that coincide with his change of demeanour?

I nearly pm'd you to warn you that Turmeric makes my sensitive cob very bolshy. I believe that it can aggravate an 'ulcery' horse. But then I thought I'd mind my own business.

 

[Nicnac]

Could it be because you've told him he doing dressage next month?

Seriously, he may very well lose more with the stress of the move so would, if I were you and I'm obviously not, take bloods now so you are forearmed should he be adversely affected by the move. If he has a virus at least you know what you're dealing with and have a couple of weeks to sort prior to the move.

Hopefully it's just January blues and he is, as you say, feeling the cold and will be better in new place. If he's not getting a look in to the hay due to the others butting him out, that could also make him a bit meh.

 

[Doormouse]

My friend's horse was diagnosed with ulcers recently, showed all the classic signs. When they scoped her they also found bot fly larve in the stomach, not sure how much they effect weight and behaviour but might be worth a thought.

 

[PolarSkye]

Didn't you put him on Turmeric recently? Did that coincide with his change of demeanour?

I nearly pm'd you to warn you that Turmeric makes my sensitive cob very bolshy. I believe that it can aggravate an 'ulcery' horse. But then I thought I'd mind my own business.

He's been on turmeric for a couple of months now . . . but you're right, it could certainly be aggravating the ulcers and it's something to consider. When I upped the turmeric to a tablespoon I had to add charcoal because he got a squitty bum - a sure sign it was aggravating his tummy. Perhaps I'll try dropping the turmeric dosage and see what happens . . . and why would you feel you need to mind your own business, I asked for advice/thoughts/comments - and yours are most welcome .

P

 

[PolarSkye]

Could it be because you've told him he doing dressage next month?

Seriously, he may very well lose more with the stress of the move so would, if I were you and I'm obviously not, take bloods now so you are forearmed should he be adversely affected by the move. If he has a virus at least you know what you're dealing with and have a couple of weeks to sort prior to the move.

Hopefully it's just January blues and he is, as you say, feeling the cold and will be better in new place. If he's not getting a look in to the hay due to the others butting him out, that could also make him a bit meh.

LOL - yes, it could well be a protest to having to be a poncy pony next month .

Jury's out on taking bloods now . . . there are so many variables (see my post about new ponies on yard/new neighbour in barn, etc.) . . . will have a think further about this.

I'm sure that being denied access to the hay is a factor . . . but they've now finished the bale and, as I'm moving, I'm not buying another (the other three aren't mine and I'm tired of feeding other people's horses). I think I'll bring him in at lunch time to give him some lunch . . .

P

 

[PolarSkye]

My friend's horse was diagnosed with ulcers recently, showed all the classic signs. When they scoped her they also found bot fly larve in the stomach, not sure how much they effect weight and behaviour but might be worth a thought.

Blimey! Will have a chat with my vet.

P

 

[TPO]

I'd previously discounted using turmeric as my horse is an ex-ulcer horse. He's an exracer so a typical ulcer horse and was scoped; they found scars of grade 2 ulcers that had already healed and only a few grade 1. I'd treated him as an ulcer horse since he arrived.

Anyway due to other factors the end of the road was reached (again!!!) so with nothing to lose I decided to try turmeric. I'd read that it can irritate the digestive system but latterly that it's anti-inflammatory on the gut.

So getting to my point eventually... He became very grumpy and out of sorts in the two weeks he was on it. It was slowly introduced and fed as advised. He maintained his good condition and was shining but was just a but "bleugh" and crabbit.

Took him off it and approx 3 days later he was back to normal.

I also didn't see any improvement while feeding it. Granted it was only 2wks but some people claim to see massive changes almost immediately

 

[Scarlett]

He's been on turmeric for a couple of months now . . . but you're right, it could certainly be aggravating the ulcers and it's something to consider. When I upped the turmeric to a tablespoon I had to add charcoal because he got a squitty bum - a sure sign it was aggravating his tummy. Perhaps I'll try dropping the turmeric dosage and see what happens . . . and why would you feel you need to mind your own business, I asked for advice/thoughts/comments - and yours are most welcome .

P

Two of mine couldn't cope with Turmeric - within 2 months of starting it they had lost lots of weight and were very lethargic, this was in spring when there was loads of grass etc. Had to get Liphook involved and the vet told me that she's seen it before in horses with sensitive bellies and to stop it immediately. I stopped it and had to start them on a gut supplement. I have no way to prove it was the turmeric but I've found a load of similar stories.

 

[PolarSkye]

Took his rugs off today and you could play a tune on his ribs . . . honestly, he's dropped so fast it's scary. N rode him and, despite being lethargic and a bit "bleurgh" to start with, once he saw the poles and I put a (tiny) cross pole up he perked up no end and finished full of beans and with a smile on his face.

So.

I'm going to stop the turmeric. I am going to worm him - and he's moving fields as of tomorrow morning - back into his original field which has always been poo picked, has been rested for a year (clean) and has always had horses on it who were regularly wormed. I will keep him warm and continue to give him lots of high quality forage, but I'm not going to change his feed or anything else.

If I change too much, we won't be able to pinpoint what the problem is/was. I know he will drop some when we move him, but I'd like to give him a chance to pick up a little before then.

He certainly enjoyed having a wee jump today .

P

 

[nikicb]

Sorry to hear about Kali, such a shame when he was doing so well getting back into things. Just to add to all the useful stuff above..... I too would be tempted to run bloods before you move. If he has a virus, it would be better to know before you move so you don't spread it to another yard unnecessarily. I know you don't have much choice as far as moving is concerned, but you might be able to keep in isolation for a few extra days etc. Just thinking really about the owners/horses on the new yard and how they might feel. Hope he perks up again soon. xx

 

[PolarSkye]

Sorry to hear about Kali, such a shame when he was doing so well getting back into things. Just to add to all the useful stuff above..... I too would be tempted to run bloods before you move. If he has a virus, it would be better to know before you move so you don't spread it to another yard unnecessarily. I know you don't have much choice as far as moving is concerned, but you might be able to keep in isolation for a few extra days etc. Just thinking really about the owners/horses on the new yard and how they might feel. Hope he perks up again soon. xx

This is a good point. Will talk to vet further.

P

 

[JFTDWS]

I think most of the likely culprits have been discussed. But fingers crossed he's feeling better soon!

 

[Tiddlypom]

Interesting to hear other people's experiences with tumeric. It may just be a coincidence that Kali's gone a bit 'off' since he was started on it, but it's something to rule out, in any case. It certainly affected my chap, and the change in his temperament was pretty instant so he didn't stay on it long enough to lose condition.

Wish I had mentioned it to you at the time, but it just seemed a bit random (and my lad is a reactive drama llama to diet changes at the best of times.)

Good luck with it all, and with the forthcoming yard move. I must have missed that you were moving, it's always a stressful time, isn't it.

 

[PolarSkye]

Interesting to hear other people's experiences with tumeric. It may just be a coincidence that Kali's gone a bit 'off' since he was started on it, but it's something to rule out, in any case. It certainly affected my chap, and the change in his temperament was pretty instant so he didn't stay on it long enough to lose condition.

Wish I had mentioned it to you at the time, but it just seemed a bit random (and my lad is a reactive drama llama to diet changes at the best of times.)

Good luck with it all, and with the forthcoming yard move. I must have missed that you were moving, it's always a stressful time, isn't it.

I can't, hand on heart, attribute the change to turmeric . . . but I also can't rule it out . . . and given that he's a girthy/sensitive soul wrt to his tummy, it makes sense to ditch it.

As you say, some horses are reactive drama llamas . . . Pops certainly is . . . but we haven't seen a dramatic reaction - until now . . . assuming that's what we're looking at.

There are so many other possible factors . . . but hopefully process of elimination will help us sort him out . . .

P

 

[EmmaB]

Could you get him tested for cushings? Mine only showed a few signs - lack of enthusiasm (which I put down to old age) lost weight and muscle no matter how much I fed and last winter (when he was undiagnosed) he was clipped in October and didn't grow his coat back until July the following year. This year on his meds he was clipped a couple of months ago and its now growing back, so not growing the coat back could definitely be a sign.