Kalli being PTS next week. Hard decision: is it the right one?

Bless you hon. I can't for the life of me understand your vet's reluctance to refer to physio. My vets do it really quite often as they really believe it works. Works in people so why on earth wouldn't it work on horses after all!

I'm sure you've already pushed for it but could you have another go asking.

I think if you do decide PTS you can make the decision with a totally clear conscience. By the sounds of it you have fought very hard to get her right.
 
So sad to read this having, she is a beautiful mare and should the scan today not bring anything up then you should know that the decision you make will be nothing short of the right one xxx Thinking off you both xxx
 
That is so sad. Before taking a decision to PTS I would also scope her for gastric ulcers. We have a mare on our yard who became dangerous to ride and all the vets thought it was behavioural. She had a bone scan, the lot. It was only writing about her on here that several helpful HHO'ers suggested ulcers. She went to 3 top equine hospitals and no one had found a thing wrong with her. Only her owner and me were still convinced it was pain related behaviour. They all looked at us as though we were a pair of silly bunny huggers. Finally, her owner insisted she was scoped and they found the ulcers. Now after treatment, she is a completely changed horse and back to her normal self. Gastric ulcers do not always show obvious symptoms. Often ridden problems such as severe napping are the only signs.

I would certainly want to rule these out before putting your mare to sleep.
 
Just read your first post on the initial problem and all that you describe is identical to the mare with ulcers on my yard. Initially strong and heavy in the hand but then the short stilted stride, the napping and refusal to go forwards. She felt as though she had 'the handbrake constantly on'. Initially there was no rearing or bucking but eventually as the problem got worse, when she was pushed she reared.
 
Having been aquainted with Kalli for a fair long time and seen and heard about her behaviour both on here and other places I think PTS is a sad but realistic approach.

If she stresses beingleft, doesnt get onwith other horses, and is dangerous to handle and ride then it would be unfair on everyone to continue.

Although we are all horse lovers if the insurance is getting ropey about all of this and its beginning to cost K's to the owners then as much as we love our horses money is a huge factor in how we care and how we make decisions.

Its a shame that the vets arent taking you seriously but TBH pressure can be put on them to do so I wouold be interested to know whic vets you used if you would care to PM me with the names.
 
K, you have not made this decision lightly. You and her owner will have agonised long and hard. Please don't be unduly influenced by others. FWIW, I think you have made a very brave, responsible decision, for the good of a lovely horse. Someone I know recently made a similar decision. His mare was relatively young (12), had turned into an unpredicatable, dangerous horse. All avenues that were affordable (Yes, sadly a fact of life that we have to take into account finances) had been explored. The vet (!!!!) suggested possibly having a foal might settle her down. At least your vet hasn't made this suggestion :mad: He made the decision to have the horse put down - entirely correctly. Didn't stop him sobbing his heart out on the day. Hold your head up with a clear conscience.
 
Only you can make this choice, as only you know everything you & poor Kalli have gone through up to this point. Whatever you decide, there is no reason for guilt, you can only do your best & none of us are perfect owners. Ulcers can seriously affect behaviour, but if she has bone pain anyway it is of questionable use with what else she has wrong with her.

Personally I'd dose her with pain killers to give her a week or so pain free whilst the arrangements were made, then free her from her pain. It may be that the behaviours are now learnt & difficult to stop as she has been like it now a fair while. If you, as the person closet to her & most attuned to what she is like in pain & not in pain thinks that she is suffering, then maybe you should trust your instincts. If her neck pain is irreversible, then the fact she is lame doesn't really matter. Your vet may be able to bring her sound, but she will still be in pain from the neck. Even if your vet doesn't believe you, trust yourself. If you really think she is suffering, you have your answer.
 
windsorblue said:
K, you have not made this decision lightly. You and her owner will have agonised long and hard. Please don't be unduly influenced by others. FWIW, I think you have made a very brave, responsible decision, for the good of a lovely horse.
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^^^ THis.

It really annoys me when you know someone's not taking this horrid decision lightly, they've done all the tests, they have a positive decision on the state of the horse from their vets and you still get all the sentimental ones sticking their oars in, suggesting this or that (which will have already been explored) or questioning the decision which is bound to then put doubt into the poster's mind. It's totally unfair and uncalled for. Please people, respect someone's decision even if it's not the one that you would take even although this decision is the right one for this horse. It's a hard enough time as it is without casting further doubt into their minds.

Think of the horse, be realistic and face up to what's best for it, nothing else matters and give the OP the support they deserve.
 
Kallibear, what an absolute nightmare for you. Just to give you a bit of background, I am a Vet Nurse of 20 years and also an almost fully qualified human physio (career change looming). I also have a much loved Clyde x mare. I've read through all the thread and your links to previous threads. The one thing that jumped out at me, particularly seeing as a neck problem has been diagnosed, is neuralgia, particularly possible Trigeminal neuralgia. The pain from this increases under exercise (when blood pressure rises and veins/arteries enlarge, therefore increasing pressure on already painful nerves).This causes absolutely unbearable shooting pain in the head/neck/face areas. The specialist physio you mentioned would be able to look into this. You are the client, your vet should refer Kalli to this physio urgently, don;t understand why he hasn't, you and Kalli have nothing to lose.


Even though this may go some way towards giving you answers, if it is TN sadly there isn't really any treatment for it...but at least you would have a definite answer. Unless, if you look into TN and it rings lots of bells..then there is the best answer you are going to get, and you will know yourself if the symptoms fit. It is a very complicated issue in humans, never mind horses :( But there is some information out there on it on horses..try reading some info on humans first to get an idea of what it is..The Brain and Spine Foundation website is good. For horses, Lincoln Uni Vet Med dept has done some initial research on this.


After looking into TN myself before, I think this invisible condition may be a reason a lot of horses are labelled anything from headshakers to dangerous..rearing under saddle can be a classic symptom. Horses will usually just have a dull pain when not under sadlle..so behave better. Bits can make mild TN worse, due to the pressure. My own Clyde x mare has always been a bit of a headshaker so now only ride in a Bitless Bridle adn she is much better. But sadly, Kalli may have the extreme type of TN, where they may never have been a headshaker..just acute pain, uneven balance,intemitent lameness due to the neurological pressure ..possible with Kalli when she was her old 'lazy' but nice self, the TN was then at a milder, chronic stage..and we all know we can function with low level problems,but not want to or be able to go dancing etc...and the deterioration in her behaviour has reflected the worsening of the TN to an acute stage :(


I may be totally wrong, so difficult when just posting..please do some research and see if the condition could match your horse who you know so well, and have tried so hard for. I really feel for you, Kalli is a beautiful horse,and her behaviour, for whatever reason, looking in her eyes, is not 'her', I'm sure...Sending you strength.At the very least I hope in some way my theory might help you to prepare a bit more psychologically. It's illogical, but I have some kind of gut feeling, from what you describe..that an extreme form of TN, related to her old neck injury..could be the answer you have looked for all this time. If I was nearer I would come to support you, I feel so much empathy for you.Pm me anytime if I can help in any way xx
 
Maesfen said:
^^^ THis.

It really annoys me when you know someone's not taking this horrid decision lightly, they've done all the tests, they have a positive decision on the state of the horse from their vets and you still get all the sentimental ones sticking their oars in, suggesting this or that (which will have already been explored) or questioning the decision which is bound to then put doubt into the poster's mind. It's totally unfair and uncalled for. Please people, respect someone's decision even if it's not the one that you would take even although this decision is the right one for this horse. It's a hard enough time as it is without casting further doubt into their minds.

Think of the horse, be realistic and face up to what's best for it, nothing else matters and give the OP the support they deserve.
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To be fair to most posters, I don't think that they believe for one minute that they believe the pts decision is taken lightly. The OP is asking if it is the right one and people on the whole have made suggestions of things that they think might possibly help, but if not to then pts.

It is human nature to want to 'make things right' and consider unexplored possibilities and I'm sure the op will know what are viable options and what aren't, but it will probably help to consider options that may not have been suggested before.

Personally in my own situation once the decision has been made I wouldn't ask for other's opinions, as they don't know the horse or myself and I'd want to be certain that it was the right thing without interference from others, but the op has asked and so is bound to get differing opinions. I don't consider any of them unsupportive though:confused:
 
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Maesfen said:
^^^ THis.

It really annoys me when you know someone's not taking this horrid decision lightly, they've done all the tests, they have a positive decision on the state of the horse from their vets and you still get all the sentimental ones sticking their oars in, suggesting this or that (which will have already been explored) or questioning the decision which is bound to then put doubt into the poster's mind. It's totally unfair and uncalled for. Please people, respect someone's decision even if it's not the one that you would take even although this decision is the right one for this horse. It's a hard enough time as it is without casting further doubt into their minds.

Think of the horse, be realistic and face up to what's best for it, nothing else matters and give the OP the support they deserve.
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Maesfen, did you read the OP's 1st sentence?

Thoughts and suggestions welcome: someone might come up with the magic answer

As far as I can see, every poster has either sent simple good wishes, for a hard decision, which was not lightly made, or offered suggestions for further things to try as requested.
I fully understand Kallibear's frustration with the situation which they find themselves in.
 
I have not readall of the posts but would it be possible to turn her away from now until next spring...let her live out 24/7 and just be a horse for a while. She may calm down, relax, chill, exercise herself healthy, have a break from drugs and being examined, take the pressure of yourselves. She may come good. Vets dont have all the answers, there is no miracle cure for everything, sometimes nature knows best. From the sounds of your posts it sounds a little frantic clutching at anything that could be the problem or solution, just give her some freedom, grow a winter coat etc. Good luck with whatever you do.
 
So sorry to hear this.

TBH I'd be looking for a second opinion from another vet and failing any useful answers from them I'd be following Daisy2's advice.

I'm not at all against horses (or anything else) being PTS for a good reason but it does sound as though your vets have given up in the face of something they can't identify. Arthritis will get worse but in the short-medium term is manageable and without a diagnosis for all the rest (or a clear welfare need) I'd be tempted to see if time off helps.

There is a poster on here who has a retirement home (can't think of name right now but they had a birthday party for a ridiculously old Shetland recently). They, and probably a few others, would be able to advise on roughing off and turning away even the 'least likely' candidates.

Best wishes.
 
Have not read all posts and I understand you are desperate to find a possible solution. I would seriously question your vet though...I cannot understand when people say their vets won't do a work up because horse is not lame enough. Any decent lameness specialist will investigate to the extent that if they can't see a lameness inhand they will watch the animal being ridden and appraise that way. My own mare aggravated both her hind suspensories and it was only when nerve blocked and ridden we could really identfy it. I am not saying there is a miracle cure for your mare...it may still be the end of the line but if she was mine and I had the money i would consider a full work up at a new vets who is a lameness specialist
 
Let her be a horse for a while....and then make a decision if she is clearly still on pain. Shoes off and let her be
 
Leah3horses said exactly what I was going to say. My mare has been behaving worse and worse with headshaking which then turns into a napping/broncing session and my vet turned up early last week and saw me riding. His first words were - "I think your horse has Trigeminal Neuralgia". It was something I had been already thinking, but was too scared to bring the subject up as I didn't want to hear it.
She is off to hospital for a CT scan on Friday next week.
Leah3horses explained it perfectly - exactly as my vet described it.
He also said that there is a new operation at Liverpool Vet hospital which involved something along the lines of cauterising the trigeminal nerve. My concern about this was that it would also denerve her whole face (that is of course if TN is what it is), but he said that he didn't think it did - it was only one branch of the TN that it worked on. It is Derek Knottenbelt who has done the research on it, and although it isn't a definitive cure, and it's something that I would only do as a last resort, it might be worth you looking into it - I certainly will be if all else fails.

Can't remember if you've already mentioned this, but could allergy be involved? Would it be worth trying large doses of Piriton for a week or so to see if this does anything?

I hope you can find an answer, but if not, then at least you know that you tried everything you could before PTS. It is YOUR decision at the end of the day - you do not have to justify yourself to anyone else. Good luck.
 
How awful for you and for Kalli. No easy answers I am afraid but I think sometimes you do have to draw a line. It is easy to suggest alternatives but if you feel you have reached the end of the line then I am sure you did not do this lightly. If it is any consolation I am sure it is much much harder to PTS than to keep on plugging away.
So sorry it came to this. Best wishes for the right outcome for you and her x
 
Thank you again for the replies. To try and cover but a few:

Maesfen: I very much appreiciant the sentiment, thank you, but as someone else said, opinions are welcome: they might come up with something. I am very thick skinned and not easily swayed by someone on the otherside of the computer so not easily upset ;)

RE diet: she is already on a EPMS-suitable diet (just hay and grass with oil in her handful of chaff for her daily supplement)

RE: Turning away: she's already had pretty much 9 months off what with the winter snow then her behaviour then us breaking things then her behaviour again. She's lived out 24/7 (currently in at night as her best friend comes in) but it has no effect on her movement or temperament.

RE Alternative treatments: We have already had a Chiro, Bowen, Sports Massage and Rieki (!! :rolleyes: ), none of which had any disernable effect: they all said she was stiff and inflexible through her neck and didn't move well behind, reccommending a vet examination.

RE useless vets: they are very frustrating but a second second referal isn't an option now due to money (insurance). Plus we're happy that they have found as much muscular skeletal issues as is possible.

Todays ovary scan showed nothing but we did spend a long time chatting to the vet who did it ( a friend who runs an AI stud) and have come up with a plan, esp having read some others experiences (like ulcers and TN syndrome)

On monday I will be phoning the vet and asking them to go over everything with me (last week it was her owner there as I was at work, and owner is still of the age (18) where she hesitates to fight against adults in authority) I am less easily cowed and will be asking some difficult questions until I get the answers I want.

I will first of all be insisting on scoping for gastric ulcers: if nothing is found we'll pay directly for it. If something IS found the insurance will pay. It will go along the line of 'just humour me'.....

Secondly I will be insisting on a physio referal. If they beleive she WAS in pain but now it's just a memory and stiffness then physio is EXACTLY the thing she needs. Some white lies may be required (that she's going for proffesional reschooling with someone who specialises in her type of issue but first we want her as flexible and supple as possible blah blah blah). Having seen this physio work before, it will be a couple of weeks at least; the horse goes to her centre and is worked on daily by her staff, both for massage and excercises until the pain is gone and new, correct muscle memory is developed. They also ride them, which may be an option later. I trust the physio far more to tell us if she's painful than the vets.

Scoping and physio are the two very last options left for her now and we've come so far and tried so much that it's silly to give up now. Her owner understandably wants closure (esp depondant last night) and doesn't want any more hope then dissapointment, but these last two are quick (the scoping) and enjoyable (she'll love physio). I suspect this is just putting off the envitable but then we will be happy we have tried EVERYTHING possible (with no thanks to the bloody vets :mad: ) and PTS is the only option left.
 
Good for you. Wish everyone with a horse (or a surrogate owner such as yourself) was as caring & responsible. Whatever happens it's done for Kalli, which is all any of us can do for our animals.
 
Well if it does come to the fact she is pts at lest you and her owner have done everything to find an answer(many people wouldn't) and that you have done your best by her.
 
Sounds like a good plan to me!

Fingers crossed that you get to the bottom of her issues, and if not at least you know you have done your utmost to get her sorted. Sending you best wishes for a successful outcome.
 
Is this the lovely mare you had at a trec comp at oatridge last summer? I was faffing around with a heather moffat saddle parked next to you!! I remember she kindly squished your hand between the jockey door and the car!

I have no further advice on what's been said already but I have in my mind what I will do if I'm ever troubled with the PTS quandry and vets and science can't help me (as you have done I too would not be able to rest until I had searched as hard as I could for the answer). There is a lady called Anne dee who is an animal communicator. I'm originally from Ayrshire where she is from and over at least the last ten years I have heard many positive stories about peoples experiences with her and only one negative (her horse had nothing remarkable to say and I don't think she felt she had her moneys worth because of it!). This was always going to be my last card to play. I've no idea if there is any reality to it or not but if she can even give you peace in your mind then it would be worth it.

On another note, if you think the mare would be happy in retirement in the field, she may well be an ideal candidate for the e&o labs blood bank. They get to live at rest in fields in summer and barns in winter in return for donating blood (mostly for use in microbiology plates) I think fortnightly. They are not sold on from there. Google e&o labs for more info. Nr stirling I think.

Fingers crossed for you that she has ulcers and can be sorted but if not hopefully I've given you some other options for you to think about and maybe help you come to a decision you are happy is the right one for all concerned.

From the bottom of my heart I wish some good luck to come your way.
 
There are some really nice and supportive people on this forum, aren't there! :)

In terms of diagnostics, any point in exploring the equiscan? Its a thermal imaging "thing" - I think it costs £300 and something for a full body scan, so not the end of the world and I know of quite a few people who have managed to pinpoint exact locations of problems using it. Might be worth a go, on or off insurance.

RE the physio referal, wouldn't one or other of the previous vets she has seen refer her? I'm joinin the camp of people who are incredulous that the vet would rather you PTS than tried physio - have you put it that way to him by the way?

Nothing further to add OP, but best of luck with her.
 
OP- you sound very responsible. Well done for trying so hard but still having a responsible view at the end if you need too. i.e. PTS.

DEFINITELY get a veterinary physio to see the horse. The definition of physio is 'physical therapy' and most injuries need this to help the body return to as normal a function as possible. It is not a one off thing or just a few sessions (normally) but something that the owner will also need to continue with. It can be a lifelong commitment for some injuries but it can work wonders to help relieve pain and discomfort when the body has been 're-educated'.

Good luck. I really hope you get a positive outcome.
 
Playing devil's advocate here but has anyone thought that the vet is unwilling to do anything further because he knows/can see the hopelessness of this case and the benefit to the horse?
I'm not saying that's right or how he's thinking but it is something to think about; I know my vet would do something similar because he wouldn't want me to waste my money/time on something he considered hopeless. They don't suggest PTS without there being a very good medical reason for it, that's all I'm saying.
 
Maesfen said:
Playing devil's advocate here but has anyone thought that the vet is unwilling to do anything further because he knows/can see the hopelessness of this case and the benefit to the horse?
I'm not saying that's right or how he's thinking but it is something to think about; I know my vet would do something similar because he wouldn't want me to waste my money/time on something he considered hopeless. They don't suggest PTS without there being a very good medical reason for it, that's all I'm saying.
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I agree with this 100%. We all want to do our best for our horses including saving their lives,but the vet are the experts,not us owners,or animal communicators and such like.
 
Horsesforever1 said:
I agree with this 100%. We all want to do our best for our horses including saving their lives,but the vet are the experts,not us owners,or animal communicators and such like.
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However if the vet has said to give her to WHW to reschool her out of it as they believe the pain is simply behavioural from remembered pain, then frankly I'd be a bit suspicious too! Refusing to x-ray and do physio seems a bit odd too. If the horse was only fit to be pts then I'm sure that this is what the vet would recommend without the option of resorting to re-schooling, which if there is a serious problem, would be far worse than simply doing a few more diagnostic tests to see if the problem can be found.

I disagree that vets are the experts who's opinion should be followed to the letter; listen to the vet by all means, take on board what is said and go by definitive diagnosis, but always keep an open mind and be prepared to think outside of the box. Vets aren't infallible and there are numerous posts on forums like this where they have got it wrong. They are only human after all!

I am very pro pts to avoid suffering, but I believe that you need to be 100% sure that you've explored all avenues to help the horse initially.
 
touchstone said:
However if the vet has said to give her to WHW to reschool her out of it as they believe the pain is simply behavioural from remembered pain, then frankly I'd be a bit suspicious too! Refusing to x-ray and do physio seems a bit odd too. If the horse was only fit to be pts then I'm sure that this is what the vet would recommend without the option of resorting to re-schooling, which if there is a serious problem, would be far worse than simply doing a few more diagnostic tests to see if the problem can be found.

I disagree that vets are the experts who's opinion should be followed to the letter; listen to the vet by all means, take on board what is said and go by definitive diagnosis, but always keep an open mind and be prepared to think outside of the box. Vets aren't infallible and there are numerous posts on forums like this where they have got it wrong. They are only human after all!

I am very pro pts to avoid suffering, but I believe that you need to be 100% sure that you've explored all avenues to help the horse initially.
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Yes – the WHW comment was especially bizarre. Because I'm pretty sure that's not at all what they do.
 
You dont sound happy with the vet and I would have a second opinion. The out come could well be the same though but at least you can make your decision based on good judgements. If she is still going to be dangerous and at least you are doing the right thing by not selling her on etc(good to hear someone doing right by their horse) then PTS if its untreatable.

Sounds like you are just exhausting all avenues. A very hard decision for you but at least you are being realistic. Good luck your decision will be the right one.
 
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