kauto star

He was run in low grade stakes races as a 2 / 3 yr old on the West coast. As a 4 yr old he was shipped to the east coast to Bill Mott who rested him for 6 months, then brought him back to a couple more low grade races, then the 3rd race at Aqueduct in a 1 mile allowance on dirt he won by 8 lengths, and never lost another race for 2 yrs.
 
Danoli, such a lovely exuberant horse, Earth Summit for three National wins in different countries and Morley Street for being so difficult to judge and Challenger du Luc for refusing to win for AP, ever!
 
referring to the final point in your post Lucretia this was not my intention, I did change the title to make it clear who I was referring to in my main post, there was no other intent behind this.
 
i am fairly old cefyl but my father is greek and loved going to the track and as he worked nights as often as not the racing was on the tv during the day. one of my ealiest memories is being taken to kempton or sandown to watch the jumping and Gay Trip was the first horse i remember winning the national. brigadier gerard and mill reef were household names in our house which is why i am fairly anorak like about horses that ran up til the early 80's when i left school and got a life!
as for american horses, secretariat was a legend obviously but i was priviledged enough to be working on the same stud that seattle slew stood and his battle with affirmed was a fantastic race, he was a great great horse and it was an honour to have been in the same barn and patted him. there have been other horses i have loved that were very very good like Easy Goer and Holy Bull but the Slew is probably my best ever American horse, though i suspect he wouldnt have seen which way Big Red went, certainly not in the Belmont anyway.
And if want to talk world greats the i would include the mare Lets Elope from Australia and one of their sprinters called Schillaci (sp) never seen a horse as fast as that, not even Lochsong.
 
how i loved Lanzarote, now there was an extravagant horse. and Bula and Burrough Hill Lad, the latter a great, great horse plagued by injuries.
oh and Monksfild and sea pigeon and night nurse....
 
Easy Goer - what an epic battle with Sunday Silence to the wire in the Preakness.

And on the topic of Sunday Silence what an horse with such an inauspicous start to become a great in the US, and a legend in Asia. One of the recent years memorables Deep Impact, his son, another son Heart's Cry, the only one to beat Deep Impact in Japan. Sunday Silence was a true black, and in a pre-race interview with his trainer Charlie Whittingham the colt stood up and nailed old Charlie on the head, I think Charlie was about 73 yrs old at the time.

Sea Pigeon and Night Nurse as you said, did anyone mention Dawn Run? Bula, did'nt he meet his fate in the Grand National, the same year that Zeta's Son also lost his life?
 
dawn run has been mentioned several times and i cant remember where Bula was killed but i think a park course like sandown actually but i could be wrong.
and to get the measure of captain christy's superiority and how the handicapper is not always to believed, Bula won 21 from 26 including several championship races. the captain beat him by thirty lengths. when he beat pendil at cheltenham pendil had won 11 races on the bounce. he might have been a tree for all he could do to stop the inevitable. possibly only Arkle's beating of Mill House was a better performance than the first, and i cannot think of another since, Des included, who cold give another dual king george winner a thirty length beating, thats what i mean by breath taking. his career like Bula's, Arkle's and Lanzarote's was prematurely ended who know wht he might have achieved otherwise.
 
No mention of one of my personal favoutites on here - Istabraq. *sulks*
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Totally agree that I can't really compare Kauto and Dessie, simply because they are from two different generations of race horses.

I do think that Dessie's colour came into play, certainly as far as the public were concerned, BUT, there have been plenty of grey racers over the years, and none have been as awsome as he was.
His performances were outstanding on so many levels. His colour was simply an added bonus imho.

Also agree that the death of Gloria Victis was a tragedy. The superstar that never got the chance to truely shine. I cried buckets when he met his untimely end.
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Who knows what he could have achieved, and therein lies the rub.

All great superstars have to have talent, BUT equally, they have to have the gods on their side, and stay injury free. No matter how carefully they are cared for, freak accidents and illnesses happen all too often, as highlighted with the untimely death of Best Mate.

I don't feel it is correct to imply that Denman was 'broken' because he beat Kauto in the Gold Cup, in fact, when I first heard of the [physiological] size of his heart, I always had this niggle that it was likely to cause him problems at some point. An over sized heart is not usually a good thing...

Kauto is a modern day superstar. That is without question. And he has a lot more to achieve, if luck stays on his side.

However, judging him on what he has achieved so far, right at this moment in time, I would not put him in same league as the alltime greats.
I think that this season will be the decider for him, and will either put him up there on the racing throne, or cast him aside as 'a good horse in his day'.

I hope he does it. We all like to see a success story, but IF Deman is properly fit and healthy for the Gold Cup, I think he will destroy Kauto.
 
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i suspect the Gold Cup thread for cheltenham will be a long one.....

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T'is good to have differing opinions though is it not?
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As long as people don't start getting personal *rolls eyes*
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yeah dont go there, but note how i am quite able to have a discussion when no snide remarks are made!!;)

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Yeah but that could just be because you bow to my superior knowledge...
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As far as other horses go, there are loads of them. See More Business might have won another Gold Cup had he not been carried out by AP.

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Am I right in thinking it was Cyborgo (sp?) that carried See More Business out, just before the wing of a fence, possibly on the first turn? He'd broken his pelvis and was being pulled up and unfortunately SMB was on his outside....

With regards to great racehorses in general, how about the awesome Zarkava? Though I would like to have seen her in training at 4! And what of Sunline? And Spain and Hishi Amazon and her dam Katies? And the immortals Oh So Sharp and Ruffian and Open Mind!! Spectacular Bid was phenomenal. I agree re. Hawk Wing - his Lockinge win was just incredible!! And what of Giant's Causeway? And also Montjeu and Dubai Millenium (2000 was a stellar year for flat racing fans). And ummmm Man O' War? LMAO I could go on and on and on!! Instead I will go back to bed
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P.S. GTF - Cigar retired to the Kentucky Horse Park - where Funny Cide has recently retired to and also where Alysheba has recently been retired from stud duties.
 
SN, yes, it was Cyborgo, I just checked. Looks like he went onto a ptp career in Scotland after than, but I don't remember seeing him...........
Zarkova is something else, considering she nearly put herself on the floor jinking into the rails just after the start of the Arc ......
Mostly the flat horses don't stay in training long enough for my liking, Giant's Causeway and the Rock were just incredible, they had such battling qualities, I'd love to have seen them run as older horses.
In fairness, I think most of the Coolmore names are up there. How very smart of them to grab Montjeu as a stallion, I think a certain rival does a fine line in cutting off his nose to spite his face by not touching the Sadlers Wells lineage.....
Great to know Cigar has a life still.........beautiful horse......and as for Funny Cide, I've never quite forgiven him for beating GC!! Pics would be cool, Lu!
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As well as forgetting Istabraq (who I think Binocular is the nearest to whom I've seen since, although Hurricane Fly [by Montjeu] is scarily brilliant too) I can't believe I didn't mention 'Gorgeous' George Washington..... his Guineas win was astounding considering how hard he tried to throw it away...he made the hair stand up on the back of my neck. What a tragedy to lose him in such an undignified way.
It's so easy to go on and on.........
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I agree GTF there are so many horses on both the flat and the jumps that have made my hair stand on end or beam from ear to ear.
My main passion is for the staying chasers and two mile speedsters. There have not been many hurdlers that have rocked my boat over the years though. There have been a few whose names don't spring readily to mind. I think mainly because many of the hurdlers I know and remember have achieved much higher rewards when going chasing.
I did have a soft spot for Viking Flagship though. I always followed him and loved the way he jumped. Moscow Flyer was another who could jump well at speed but sadly could also make mistakes and from a betting proposition ( as I am a gambler, albeit small these days) he was too risky.
I also followed Strong Promise as he was trained by a friend of mine ( Chris Kinane, he was asst to the late Mr Hubbard at the time, but Chris did most of the work). I cried buckets when he lost his life at Aintree
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I also ditto about Gloria Victis as well and after having backed him to win the Racing Post chase, annihilated his field off top weight, I was convinced he would run well in the gold cup. I remember the day well. I was at uni. I had to tape the racing as I couldn't afford to miss the lectures that day. Went home on the bus with cotton wool in ears ( seriously lol) so I couldn't hear anyone discussing the race, if anyone did. Watched the days racing and saw him fall and was gutted. I saw him limp away in the box and hoped he could be saved. I used to tape and watch the highlights too at night as I don't have racing uk and the highlights used to show later races too ( not aired on ch4) so I didn't find out he had been pts until that night. Gawd I cried
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I can remember seeing Tony at Uttoxeter on the Sat. He was so forlorn. He only had one ride. I can remember going up to him putting my hand on his shoulder and saying 'I am so very sorry'. You could see he was visibly still upset. That man loves horses it is so apparent.
I still believe to this day connections were right to run to horse. He was a big individual, jumped extremely well and although having a tendency to jump right and favouring right handed tracks ( Chelt-left) he was on the upgrade. He may have been young to run in the race but his physique, attitude and ability didn't match his tender age.
I know many pundits at the time argued about it post race and the Pipes got a real hammering from some quarters of the press and public which was totally out of order in my honest opinion! Gosh I don't even have enough fingers on my hands to count the number of times I have seen horses pitched in races which they have absolutely no chance of winning and have seen horses broken as a result. Like when you see horses badly out of form put in decent handicaps or graded races when they have failed to complete in upteen races before that start. Clearly something amiss and yet they still run them and then you wonder why these horses either break down or cannot give anymore and yet little or nothing is said about that. But no Mr Pipe got a real hammering over running a horse in the form of its life in a race which it had every chance of winning just because it was a 6 year old and fell and was pts as a result of its injury. I don't believe for one minute that its age or lack of experience over fences had anything to do with its mistake. I know at the time I watched the race back a few times and I believe it was a case of horse and jockey getting wires crossed. Victis just didn't jump correctly at that fence for one reason or another and as a result he came down. How many times have we seen KS fluff his lines, and ok while it can be said (Haydock race aside this season) he mainly gets it right even so, what would we be saying if he was making mistakes and falling.
No I believe that Victis made that one error at a crucial stage two fences from home. I don't believe he was tiring either, like some said at the time. He was a bold front runner and while it remains a question as to whether he would have held his position up that hill to the line, I don't think anyone could say for certain one way or another. Front runners can win at the track. I know it was over hurdles and not over the new course but remember Make a stand's dazzling start to finish display in the Champion hurdle in 97?
Sorry rant over......
I would dearly have loved to have seen Victis go on to great things and like French Holly too these were immensely talented horses whose lives were cruelly robbed by an accident. No ones fault but an accident.
I know I have gone on but I can remember at the time there was so much condemnation for trainer, jockey and owner that I thought it was callous. It was very sad that the horse got killed but I can remember thinking when I was reading stuff ( not on here btw) 'have these people ( those that were saying it) got no dignity or compassion at all'. I don't think they thought that owner, trainer and jockey and even those who looked after the horse at the yard were grieving at all. They had lost a horse dear to them as well.
Caz
 
Caz, I'm mostly in agreement with you, apart for Gloria Victis. I wouldn't have replied, if you hadn't been so determined in your POV!! So, sorry, but I didn't think at the time they were right to run, I was very worried for the horse, and so it proved. He was killed. You have to go back to Mill House for the previous 6yo to win, and he was exceptional.
GV had some erratic jumping form, and whilst he was impressive in the KG and the RPC, he was clear and under no pressure jumping wise over the last two or three obstacles. The Gold Cup is a hard race, no quarter given, and he was never going to be able to stroll up the hill in front to coast to victory. Only three races before on his only other UK run on a left-handed track he'd been jumping markedly right when under pressure (2m 4 at Newbury), and he was unproven over both the trip and an undulating track like Cheltenham. He made a mistake under pressure jumping upsides other horses. I don't doubt for a minute he was a Gold Cup horse in the making, but it was a year too soon.
It was greed, pure and simple, and I was one of those loud in condemnation. It's not as if the criticism came after the event, many good judges reckoned they were making the wrong decision beforehand. As far as the compassion in the yard goes, the yard staff and the work riders were the ones who had my sympathies, they lost a friend, not a goldmine and path to glory.
The connections of one of my most favourite horses of all time, Beef or Salmon, did exactly the same by running him in the GC as a novice, but were lucky to go home with him, albeit with him damaged and put off Cheltenham for life. I'd say their decision to run him as a novice probably cost them a couple of future Gold Cups with the horse. I know Michael Hourigan has voiced that he probably did the wrong thing sending him over.
Novices are novices, and even the best of them still lack the match practice that can make the difference between success and failure, or life and death.
Anyway, I don't mean to argue with you, but that is one of those debates where there is no middle ground, and I saw it very differently.
Horses do get killed racing, it's a horrible fact of it, but there are ways of minimising risk, and I get upset when the horse pays the penalty in an avoidable instance.
AP is a different person now, but in those days horses were secondary to his will to win. His performance when Valiramix was fatally injured a couple of years later at Cheltenham didn't exactly endear him to me. Winning, not horses, was where his loyalties lay. He famously said he'd rather put a horse on the floor at the last trying to win, than jump it safely for second. Hmm....

On a cheerier note, nobody's mentioned Ouija Board. I just watched RUK replaying Zarkava's Arc today, and it reminded me of the bad luck OB had when she ran in her year. What a mare, so tough to travel round the world as she did, and I can't wait to see her babies on the track!
 
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On a cheerier note, nobody's mentioned Ouija Board. I just watched RUK replaying Zarkava's Arc today, and it reminded me of the bad luck OB had when she ran in her year. What a mare, so tough to travel round the world as she did, and I can't wait to see her babies on the track!

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It will be interesting to see how her now yearling colt by Kingmambo turns out - from what I have heard, he's no picture. She's in-foal to Monsun, that's one I'm looking forward to seeing!!
 
GTF we both have our opinions on different subjects so don't apologise for arguing with me lol. I won't ever think any less of you because we disagree about something
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I can honestly say though I am disappointed to hear that AP had said such a thing. He has always given me the impression that he does feel for horses as well as having the strive to win.
I know whenever he has reflected about Valiramix in particular he has got very upset and I am sure post race he was crying after his fatal fall. I don't think it was all down to him losing as he said in post race interviews that he was sad to lose a horse with so much potential.
I do agree with you about BoS though because I just don't understand why the trainer kept sending the horse over. To me he clearly didn't like the track and it just makes you wonder if they do remember where injuries occurred? It is said that horses are very intelligent and have good memories. I know my horses have proved that since I have had them as there have been situations in which I have seen just how good a memory they do have.
Just one thing though wasn't it the Feltham novice chase Victis won at Kempton before the Racing post not the KG? Not nit picking it's just that the former is a novice chase. But hadn't he also been chasing in France too before he came to the UK so did have a little bit more experience that some of his UK novice chase compatriots. Obviously it is all water under the bridge now and we shall never know what he would have achieved
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I also find myself thinking about Best Mate's victories too. I mean yes he won 3 gold cups which is an achievement in itself. But I suppose you also have to ask yourself why was he so very lightly raced in the years he won those races. He had 3 runs prior to his 2002 win, then 2 in 2003 and 2 in 2004. I do know that I did hear a rumour in the press once that he had back troubles but I don't know how true they were.
I also couldn't get my head around the day when he did actually meet his demise as to why he was contesting a trip way short of his best, the haldon gold cup at Exeter. A trip and a race which he had not contested or won over since 2001, 4 years before that fateful day. I know he was returning from a break but surely to ask a horse who had mainly been contesting trips in excess of 2 miles 5 furlongs, 3 miles and the gold cup trip to suddenly perform over 2m and 1 1/2 furlongs first time out with top weight was maybe asking a little too much. I have seen similar when proper 3 mile hurdlers are tried over 2 miles, they just can't cope. Many make mistakes and are rushed over all the obstacles because they are going much faster than they would like over a shorter trip than they feel comfortable with. I know he had to start somewhere but my own belief on this one is that the race did contribute to his death. I understand that a heart attack can happen anywhere at any time and that he was a true athlete. But I do still believe that sadly Hen got it wrong that fateful day and he would have been better off starting in a hurdle race somewhere as he was rated 10lbs less over the smaller obstacles.
Not trying to debate issues btw or to trying to defame what was a great horse. I did love Best Mate, backed him when runner up in the Supreme novice hurdle during his hurdling days and tipped him to one of my racing mates as the gold cup winner before KG run in the first year he triumphed at Cheltenham. So I do have a huge admiration for the horse.
I do think though hand on heart that the gold cup is a very hard race and that many horses in my opinion don't come back after a win in the race. Those that achieve multiple successes therefore must be truly great. The Hennessy at Newbury in November is also considered a hard race on horses too hence why Denman's demolition job and his equally impressive won in last year's gold cup in the very same season must be heralded.
They are talking now in terms of a grand national maybe for that horse this season. I would rather see how he fares in his comeback before judging though as I want to see with my own eyes just how well recovered he is after what was in my opinion a major setback this season. I don't have all the statistics in front of me right now as my Aintree folder is hidden away lol but I do know the Hennessy has been a key race for the Grand National, Irish winners aside that is ( in their case the Irish National from previous season or year before has been a pointer). The Hennessy is what gave me Red Marauder when he won the National, got 40's on him the year he won.
Anyway getting back to OB yes she was amazing and it will be a privilege to see her foals on the track. Wasn't there someone on here who saw her at their stud? I'm sure it was OB?
 
Now this will be off topic, but had just spent the last 15minutes writing my contribution to this post and bloody computer deleted the entire thing!
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One thing I was going to say was I thoroughly enjoyed watching Natagora, Zarkava and Nahoodh racing this year - they were three terrific horses ( though as Im sure you'd agree Nahoodh hasnt shown herself to be anywhere near as good as the other two).
Was lucky enough this year to meet Funny Cide ( he was BCs track pony this summer), Curlin( and his pony Poncho), Ginger Punch and Red Rocks (conquerer of Curlin on grass in the Man O'War).
I vaccinated foals on the farm Funny Cide was bred on - nice but a million miles from the KY studs - the owners are very hands so its much more like the British or Irish studs!
Racing this year, I liked the Duke, Yeats, Jukebox Jury, Bushranger ( ave met all of theses so perhaps Im biased!

I seem to remember Persian Punch was a pblic favourite in Britatin a few years ago - however he was never given much notice in the Irish racing news/publications.
As for Kautovs Dessie - I wasnt old enough to remember when Dessie was at his peak but Id still say Kauto has a way to go before he reaches the same level.
 
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I know whenever he has reflected about Valiramix in particular he has got very upset and I am sure post race he was crying after his fatal fall. I don't think it was all down to him losing as he said in post race interviews that he was sad to lose a horse with so much potential.

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He's a different person now, I'm sure. But the first thing he did (after looking at the horse on the ground) was to throw his helmet in temper. Only after the horse had struggled to it's feet was he even concerned, and then only as it was patently fatally injured. I think the upset held more than a degree of remorse and guilt. But as I say, he's moved on. He has never been anything but an awesome jockey, and now he is the finished article, riding horses with a view to their futures, not just the immediate winning post. I do believe that moving from Pipe wrought that change.....
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Just one thing though wasn't it the Feltham novice chase Victis won at Kempton before the Racing post not the KG? Not nit picking it's just that the former is a novice chase. But hadn't he also been chasing in France too before he came to the UK so did have a little bit more experience that some of his UK novice chase compatriots.

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Ahem, yes you're right!! I was just thinking Kempton, and automatically put KG..........
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He ran twice in France at Auteuil and Nantes over fences, (I've looked this up now!!!) but at no further than 2m 5. And he didn't win. I argued all this at the time with racing mates who thought he should take his chance. I believed the trip and undulations would find flaws in him, and they did. I also thought that he had enough speed to maybe not stay. He fell 'cos AP had him under serious pressure and that bloody second last fence got him. (So glad they've resited it now...)

Anyway, it's academic now.
Best Mate was a beautiful horse. I thought he was brilliantly handled by HK, if he'd run like other horses do (frequently!) he'd never have won 3 Gold Cups. I think heart attacks can just happen. He wasn't under pressure when he went, his time was just up.
Now the likes of Crow Wood's demise at Wetherby, that was IMO avoidable..........he fell very heavily on his previous outing, came back in a reasonable novice chase, jumped poorly, wasn't pulled up (tbh, he was running on so he couldn't be) and fell heavily again and was destroyed. He'd been such a good horse to them over hurdles and on the flat, he had NO need to be running over fences when he was jumping so badly...........
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As for Denman in the National, well that could go totally t1ts up. Heavy topped horses that look infallible often aren't over those fences. It could be the worst PR for racing ever...........

SN, have you seen pics of the foal? I wonder why they picked those stallions, I'd have whizzed her off to Montjeu, or Rock of Gibralter!!
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On a cheerier note, nobody's mentioned Ouija Board. I just watched RUK replaying Zarkava's Arc today, and it reminded me of the bad luck OB had when she ran in her year. What a mare, so tough to travel round the world as she did, and I can't wait to see her babies on the track!

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It will be interesting to see how her now yearling colt by Kingmambo turns out - from what I have heard, he's no picture. She's in-foal to Monsun, that's one I'm looking forward to seeing!!

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i will back that one for the leger now......
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SN, have you seen pics of the foal? I wonder why they picked those stallions, I'd have whizzed her off to Montjeu, or Rock of Gibralter!!
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No idea as to the wisdom of those matings. Maybe the choices were market driven - neither stallion is Coolmore or Darley........... No, but I know people who have seen him in RL. One of our best mares (with her Danehill Dancer filly) travelled back from Schlenderhan with her last year.
 
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I also find myself thinking about Best Mate's victories too. I mean yes he won 3 gold cups which is an achievement in itself. But I suppose you also have to ask yourself why was he so very lightly raced in the years he won those races. He had 3 runs prior to his 2002 win, then 2 in 2003 and 2 in 2004. I do know that I did hear a rumour in the press once that he had back troubles but I don't know how true they were.


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My turn to do a little bit of name dropping....(sort of)...we've got racing people on our yard and one of them used to work for HK up until fairly recently. I was told last week that BM used to get terrible nosebleeds after he raced which was why she barely ran him.

Make of that what you will but I always thought one nosebleed was nothing to worry about but regular (and bad) nosebleeds indicated a serious, underlying problem...

I will slink away now as I now absolutely nothing about racing!
 
well you are right about long term nosebleeds and their effects anyway. in several US states horses can run on a drug called lasix which apparently helps with bleeders. and as far as best mate goes that would be a legitmate reason for his light racing as lasix is illegal here and he would need extra time to recover at the very least and it is also difficult to train bad bleeders as the worse ones can start doing it on work days let alone in races. and yes i do believe there is an underlying problem for that sort (waits for a veterinary sort to explain) so slink back here you are not that ignorant!
 
I am trusting the person who told me to have told the truth, and I think he left on good terms so I guess no reason to lie about BM. Could be wrong though as I don't know those people particularly well.

I always liked BM but always wondered if there was another reason behind his light racing, or if it was that they didn't think he was actually good enough to contest many races (ie, the more you race, the more chance you have of losing. A horse that runs 5 times and wins 100% looks statisitically better than a horse who races 20 times and wins 50%, at first glance - make sense?).
 
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