KC registered puppies

[cblover]

Genuine question and not wanting to start a war....

We're looking for our next special baby in the form of a King Charles Cavalier puppy. Our last one died in April 21 and we miss her dreadfully. Our house is nearly complete its renovation and we're starting our search. I'm much more clued up about the health issues they can have, than I was when we bought Maddi 14 years ago and I'm learning as much as I can.

So....I keep seeing lots of adverts for pure bred pedigree Cavaliers but some aren't KC registered. They have all the same health tests and good results but not KC registered. Why is that? Does not being with the KC have any negatives to the puppy itself? if all the same tests are done, they are still pedigree and pure. I've read some lovely heart felt and caring adverts, with obviously healthy puppy pics on them (I'm checking each one for health tests and whether there is proof available to view) but I'm starting to question whether I can widen my search to look for non KC registered ones, as long as they are health checked and pedigree.

Am I right to do so or is it a no no? Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Parents too young or old, endorsements on the male or female, male or female not registered themselves, female has had too many litters or just tight/can't be arsed spending the money.

I wouldn't, personally, there's never usually a good reason. The Kennel Club is not perfect but it is better than nothing.

What are the health tests? How can they prove that the health tests have been done on the dog that they say that they have, without it being tied to a pedigree number or microchip number, etc? How do you know how closely related the breeding animals are, without a paper trail?

None of us can tell obvious health from a pic, unless we have x-ray eyes and I would write a lovely heartfelt and caring ad too, if I thought I'd get a big return for very little investment. Kind words butter no parsnips....a lot of these ads are very specifically written from a template and some even use stock or old pics.

 

[blackcob]

There are almost no good reasons not to register with the KC, but plenty of bad ones. In most cases probably the parents are endorsed progeny not eligible for registration, which in itself could be fairly innocuous, but I'd want to know why.

I'd also be very, very surprised if anyone would go to the bother of doing full (expensive - aren't CKCS recommended to be MRI screened?) health testing on dogs that don't have the most basic bit of registration in place. What are the health tests they are claiming and where or with whom are the results recorded?

 

[cblover]

Thanks both, I appreciate your replies. The tests I see carried out are CC - Curly Coat free, DE - Dry eye free and EF - episodic falling free. Some test for heart murmours with a doplar and mention their results. Like I say, I wouldn't just take their word for it, I'd definately need to see written proof, signed by a vet. Not sure about who the results are recorded with but I'll be asking.

I think for now its best to stick with KC registered ones. I'm trying to do my best here prior to chosing one...its all in the preparation as they say.

 

[CorvusCorax]

This is a bit out of date but might help

http://www.thecavalierclub.co.uk/health/helthintro.html

And here (this illustrates how important registration is - much easier to check results)

https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/search/breeds-a-to-z/breeds/toy/cavalier-king-charles-spaniel/

Priority health schemes and tests
The Kennel Club's Assured Breeders must use the following (or equivalent) schemes, tests and advice. All other breeders are strongly advised to also use these.

The Kennel Club's heart scheme for Cavalier King Charles Spaniels (supported by the Veterinary Cardiovascular Society)
Eye screening scheme (BVA/KC/ISDS) - Find results for the pre 2020 MRD open register. This only lists dogs that were diagnosed as 'affected by MRD'. MRD results published after 31 Dec 2019 can be found in their Health Test Results Finder entry
DNA test – EF - part of The Kennel Club's CombiBreed package* (see below). Find lists of tested dogs
DNA test – CC/DE - part of The Kennel Club's CombiBreed package* (see below). Find lists of tested dogs
Important health schemes and tests
We strongly recommend that all breeders, both assured breeders (ABs) and non ABs, use the following schemes, tests and advice.

CM/SM screening scheme (BVA/KC)
Check inbreeding calculators
*CombiBreed - simple to use and easy to organise all-in-one DNA tests for breeders
The DNA tests listed above marked with an asterisk (*) are included in our CombiBreed health test package. This includes:

EF (episodic falling)
CC/DE (Curly coat/Dry eye)
As part of this package, both of these tests are carried out from a single swab. Assured breeders receive a 10% discount.

Find out more about our CombiBreed health packages.

Find out about a particular dog's results
Please visit our Health Test Results Finder to discover the DNA or screening scheme test results for any dog on The Kennel Club's Breed Register.

You can also view the inbreeding coefficient calculation for a puppy's parents, or for a dog you're thinking of breeding from.

Health issues in Cavalier King Charles Spaniels
Health screening is one way that responsible breeders are reducing the risk of passing on pre-existing conditions. There are three main health issues currently screened for in Cavaliers:

Mitral Valve Disease (MVD)
Syringomyelia (SM)
Eye conditions
Mitral valve disease
Mitral valve disease is a common health problem in older dogs of all breeds, although it has been found to have an earlier onset in the Cavalier. The disease causes a degeneration of the heart’s mitral valve, often picked up as a heart murmur in younger dogs. Many dogs diagnosed with mitral valve disease continue to live to a good age and enjoy a happy life.

All Cavalier King Charles Spaniels that are being bred from should first be graded under The Kennel Club heart scheme.

Syringomyelia
Known by some as “neck scratchers disease” where the dog is seen scratching in the air near the neck, usually when excited or on a lead. The term syringomyelia is a condition where fluid filled cavities (syrinxes) develop within the spinal cord. While some dogs show no or only mild symptoms, unfortunately, in some cases the condition progresses and deteriorates, causing the dog pain and neurological problems. Medical interventions can help to alleviate health problems, but very sadly in some cases this is not possible.

Diagnosis for syringomyelia is by MRI scan. Veterinary clinics operating low-cost MRI scanning can be found on the Cavalier Club website together with advice and further information on syringomyelia.

Eyes
The main inherited genetic eye conditions in Cavaliers are cataract (congenital and juvenile) and multifocal retinal dysplasia. Fortunately both diseases are now much less common, as reputable breeders test their stock prior to breeding. However, you should check for the condition if you intend to breed from your Cavalier.

Health screening is an important part of illuminating health problems in any animal, but should you have concerns about any area of your dog’s health always seek and follow professional advice from your vet.

 

[cblover]

Many thanks, much appreciated. I'll have a look through it all.

 

[blackcob]

The tests you mention are DNA cheek swabs so easy and cheap to achieve - being cynical, they look good on an advert and allow a claim of ‘health tested’ for the bare minimum of input, or even no input if it’s possible for the dog to be clear by heredity for those conditions. Of course they are still
important but it’s a low bar.

The really important bits of heart scheme grading and the MRI not so much, they’d require a fair amount more £££ and pre-planning, and I gather that finding a litter from two fully health tested CKCS in this regard is unfortunately rarer than hen’s teeth. This is why I’d be surprised if anyone was doing it outside of the KC system.

 

[ester]

Of all breeds (given the current situ with ckcs breeding in other countries where it’s been deemed illegal as there isn’t enough genetic breed variation to produce ckcs without genetic health issues) you really do need to find a cross produced with more than cheap easy to do dna tests to decide it’s a good mating.

 

[satinbaze]

Sunday is Humberside Cavalier King Charles club show at Newark show ground. If you are close enough it maybe worth going and you can chat to reputable breeders and see if anyone has fully health tested litters planned.

 

[NinjaPony]

CKS is not a breed you want to be casual with re health tests… so many genetic issues prevalent in the breed that you’ll want to really read up and check any breeders thoroughly! Lots of great advice above. They are charming little dogs, really hope that the serious issues can start to become less common with decent breeding.

 

[Boulty]

You definitely want all relevant DNA tests done which have already been stated further up the page & a recent (I think there is info on cavalier club website as to how recent) Doppler heart check (NOT just auscultation!). Would also try discuss what the family history of heart issues is (a breeder who's been around for a while should be able to tell you this about their line at least), you're ideally looking for dogs to be clear of cardiac disease (& ideally Doppler scanning clear too as signs will show on this earlier than symptoms develop) until over 5 years old.

From when I was looking I found it seemed uncommon that dogs were MRI scanned & very rare that both parents had been so in the end I settled for dogs further back in the family tree having ok scans & parents who weren't showing clinical signs of SM plus all DNA tests being clear on both sides (breeder believes they've irradiated dry eye, curly coat & episodic falling from his line but does still test & dad was tested too) & both parents with recent clear Doppler heart scans & both over recommend breeding age.

I suspect the only reason the puppy I ended up with was available is because his testicles decided they liked it in his abdomen so obviously he'd have been no good for showing or breeding. He's an absolute mentalist though & is VERY full on for the breed he is (by God he moves nicely though. He never walks anywhere he either struts, floats or erm tears about like an idiot ?)

Got put in touch with breeder by phoning the cavalier club puppy coordinator a few times (think I spent about half an hour on phone to them then about 90 minutes on phone to breeder followed by about 10 emails back & forth & think we were there about 2 or 3 hours when we picked him up)

Your post has reminded me to chase re KC reg though... There was a COVID related holdup on it all being processed at the time we took him home & they were supposed to pass it on when they got it back but can't remember receiving it (although they weren't the most organised with replying to emails etc & my spam filter is also a bit daft!)