keeping an un-neutered bitch

MotherOfChickens said:
So I wonder why vasectomies in dogs aren't on offer more-I realise that it won't change other male behaviours but then, it could be done later on if needs be. This would be more desirable in large breed dogs than castration surely given the known effects of early castration.
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Oh god that reminds me of Vasectomy-gate....... a man who I met whilst fundraising for GRWE wanted to adopt a rescue greyhound/lurcher but refused to have it castrated, demanding it was given a vasectomy instead to avoid injuring the dog's masculinity... It made the front page of the BBC news website at the time, the man was somewhat (ahem) discredited as being a unusual personality at the best of times, and the dog in question was quietly re-homed with a friend of mine :D
 
Lévrier;13153715 said:
Oh god that reminds me of Vasectomy-gate....... a man who I met whilst fundraising for GRWE wanted to adopt a rescue greyhound/lurcher but refused to have it castrated, demanding it was given a vasectomy instead to avoid injuring the dog's masculinity... It made the front page of the BBC news website at the time, the man was somewhat (ahem) discredited as being a unusual personality at the best of times, and the dog in question was quietly re-homed with a friend of mine :D
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But why is the thought so strange? Given the problems in neutering male dogs, why not vasectomise them instead?
 
MotherOfChickens said:
But why is the thought so strange? Given the problems in neutering male dogs, why not vasectomise them instead?
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Why would you do this though, it doesnt stop the dog from having urges and they can still mate but obviously firing blanks, you either have them neutered or you dont.

Levrier I remember that, chuckled about that for days, wasnt he going to sue them lol?
 
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Dobiegirl said:
Why would you do this though, it doesnt stop the dog from having urges and they can still mate but obviously firing blanks, you either have them neutered or you dont.

Levrier I remember that, chuckled about that for days, wasnt he going to sue them lol?
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Because of the health issues associated with castration in dogs-especially large breeds. Not all dogs all the time but as an option. Just like to know a scientific reason other than 'that's just what we do for our own convenience'
 
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These threads on spaying are always interesting. I have kept bitches all my life and apart from breeding a couple of litters, all have been spayed after two seasons.
I have never had an overweight dog, never experienced incontinence or coat change. My 8 year old flatcoat has a beautiful shiny perfect coat.
I would never have known about these troubles without this forum. The only trend I find worrying is bitches being spayed before they have ever had a season.
 
Really interesting thread.

My bitch is 18months old, I have no plans to breed from her. She's just had her first season, when is ideally the right time to spay her?
 
Normally I would say 18 months is a good age, but if she has only just had her first season it is more complicated. Normally I would say let them have a couple of seasons so you can establish a pattern and spay mid season, however that could mean waiting another 18 months! Perhaps have a word with your vet.
 
Also depends on the breed...large breeds mature later so at least 3 seasons would be ideal..
Small breeds pref after first or second season...in very tiny breeds eg chihuahua,you also have to take into consideration the dog's weight,so they can do ok with the anaesthetic.
In both ,you would spay 3 months after the season has ended.
 
RTE - if you aim for 2-3 months from the end of her season you should be fine. You have a much lower risk of mammary cancer if you spay after first rather than after second, and lose all benefit if you wait until the third. For large breeds I advise either after first or second depending on how mature they are, but for small breeds would be happy to spay before the first season at 6 months old if they are fully grown. I volunteered in Fiji for a while as a new grad and we routinely neutered 12 week old puppies; it is a much quicker, easier op, and the charity has been doing this for years with the animals all growing up with no ill effects.

To the OP - as a vet, for me there is no question, you should always always spay a bitch. Dogs/castration there is pros and cons and it really comes down to the individual dog and its temperament etc, but for bitches the pros so far outweigh the cons that it should be a no brainer. I operated on a 4 year old bitch with a pyo a few weeks ago, so it isn't just an old dog disease.
 
Murphy88 said:
To the OP - as a vet, for me there is no question, you should always always spay a bitch. Dogs/castration there is pros and cons and it really comes down to the individual dog and its temperament etc, but for bitches the pros so far outweigh the cons that it should be a no brainer. I operated on a 4 year old bitch with a pyo a few weeks ago, so it isn't just an old dog disease.
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Thank you, I do understand that for bitches it's best and if I go ahead with this rehome, I will be looking into ovarectomy rather than the standard spay.

I've spoken to 4 vets this morning at work-all were SA vets before going into a different field. None of them have neutered dogs and all of them consider that ovarectomy to be a good option. None of them were pro castration for males in normal circumstances for responsible owners and certainly not at a young age.
 
Thanks MM & Bella, really helpful.

Murphy88 said:
RTE - if you aim for 2-3 months from the end of her season you should be fine. You have a much lower risk of mammary cancer if you spay after first rather than after second, and lose all benefit if you wait until the third. For large breeds I advise either after first or second depending on how mature they are, but for small breeds would be happy to spay before the first season at 6 months old if they are fully grown. I volunteered in Fiji for a while as a new grad and we routinely neutered 12 week old puppies; it is a much quicker, easier op, and the charity has been doing this for years with the animals all growing up with no ill effects.
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Thank you Murphy. I was always under the impression that it was inherently dangerous to spay too early because there was a connection with bone cancer, is this not the case? She's a Golden Retriever, I'm not bothered about her coat particularly as for me it is a trivial irritation compared to real health impacts, however with her being a larger breed I worry about weight gain - she is quite lean at present.
 
Ours don't put on any weight, you just watch how much you give them. Our 8 year old lab is as lean and mean as ever.
 
Clodagh said:
Ours don't put on any weight, you just watch how much you give them. Our 8 year old lab is as lean and mean as ever.
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Thanks C that's really helpful to know. She's not a food orientated dog anyway, but as I've never had a larger dog before I'm not really sure what to expect! She's very active so I would hope she will be fine.
 
You can tell she is spayed, they get sort of heavier around the shoulders and it really does ruin their coats! Like you though, the coat was the least of our worries. We get ours spayed after one season and haven't had any incontinence problems.
 
RTE, none of my three girls put on weight either after being spayed. In fact I've had people tell me my lab is too lean...they're just not used to a fit, working type and think all labs should be 'cuddly' sigh.
 
Mine haven't put on any weight either. In fact I had hoped Freya would bulk up a bit as I was feeding her loads and she was still lean but her weight hasnt altered at all. She weighed exactly the same last time she was at the vets as she did when she went in for her op.
 
A vet I did work experience with told me that after spaying, you should pretty much cut food down by roughly 30%. That's seems a lot to me, but she was adamant this was correct (depending on the individual dog of course).
 
ponyparty said:
A vet I did work experience with told me that after spaying, you should pretty much cut food down by roughly 30%. That's seems a lot to me, but she was adamant this was correct (depending on the individual dog of course).
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I have had to do that with one of my lurcher bitches who is probably a collie cross but not with the other one who is a very saluki shape. It probably depends on the individual bitch' s metabolism as well.
 
Murphy88 said:
…….. I volunteered in Fiji for a while as a new grad and we routinely neutered 12 week old puppies; it is a much quicker, easier op, and the charity has been doing this for years with the animals all growing up with no ill effects.

……..
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Assuming you to be a qualified Vet, I find that statement quite astonishing.

Alec.
 
Alec and MoC - I'm not saying that 12 week spaying should be recommended over here, more trying to make the point that depending on the population it's not as simple as "OMG, every bitch spayed under 6 months old will end up fat and incontinent". The animals that came in for vaccinations who had been spayed in the preceding years had no apparent health problems related to early neutering, and the nurses at the charity said they hadn't noted any particular trend to problems related to early neutering. Now obviously dogs in Fiji don't usually live nearly as long (when I was there, there was one permanent small animal vet in the whole of Fiji = 300+ islands), and frankly I suspect the charity would continue with that program even if there were issues later in life because if you rehome an entire puppy it will almost certainly end up pregnant at the first season then have to be spayed while pregnant or volunteers like me end up euthanising days-old litters of puppies.

RTE - hmm, given you have a retriever it's a difficult one. There is a study out of UC Davis in GRs that showed an increase in certain cancers in neutered animals compared to entire, but actually it was males that had more problems if neutered <1yr compared to females who had higher rates (mast cell tumours and haemangiosarcoma) if neutered OLDER than one year. Unfortunately we really need specific studies in bitches to properly understand the links. It's not applicable to other breeds as GRs have higher rates in these cancers anyway, which is why they were chosen for the study. That's probably not much help to you in making a decision, sorry!
 
Muphy88 I agree that the charity you spoke of probably has little choice, but I am a scientist so bound to pick you up on a statement like that ;) . I have not heard back about this bitch which is a great shame, she looked awesome. Had I got her, I'd have spayed-should I end up with a younger one I would be seriously considering ovariectomy.
 
I haven't read the whole thread, sorry if it has already been posted, but I read this a while ago http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/spay-neuter-and-joint-disease/

Anyhow, in Sweden it is still not that common to spay bitches unless there is medical reasons to do it, and the surgery is usually quite costly. I had to spay Jonna (she's 10 years old and was showing early signs of pyometra) the 18 of January, according to Yahoo's currency converter, it cost almost £1300. But since it was a pyometra, the insurance company paid about £1035 of the cost.
By the way, the operation was relatively uncomplicated, except that they had some trouble with stopping the bleeding from the wound, so the cost isn't caused by that it was a complicated operation.

Jonna's home going paper specifically says "Pay attention to her weight after spaying so that she does not become overweight! You may have to reduce her ration or switch to a feed adapted for neutered dogs." Weight gain is common enough, for my veterinarians to also feel the need to remind owners about it, when they come back to remove the stitches. Although, the veterinarian who took Jonna's stitches, did say that it was nothing wrong with her current weight, and that she presumed that I was already aware that I would have to be observant about Jonna's weight in the future.


ETA I'm sorry to hear that you haven't heard anything back about the dog you were interested in, MotherOfChickens.
 
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that's interesting to read FL, I was aware that thinking was different over there wrt to this thankyou. I've not heard anything, it's a mystery-one minute we were exchanging emails and mutually agreeing that it sounded good on paper (the bitch was advertised) at least and nothing since-despite chasing up. I will keep looking although tbh it looks as though we might wait until next year to get the puppy breed of our choice. A male who won't be neutered ;)
 
MurphysMinder said:
I have kept females entire, but the majority have been spayed later in life. I lost a much loved bitch a few years ago at 12 years of age from pyometra, I just had never got round to having her spayed. My current 2 aged 8 and 4 are both spayed, and I would never again keep a bitch into old age without spaying. I have never had problems with them putting on weight after spaying, and whereas one did become slightly urinary incontinent in old age , so did another entire bitch so cant really put it down to spaying.
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^^ This.

Nearly lost our old Lab bitch to Pyrometria, at the age of 12 she had to be spayed but thankfully she came through the operation fine.

We have 2 younger bitches that I think we will probably have spayed when they hit 7-8.

To be honest, if you arne't going to breed get her spayed. I don't know where you live OP (Country or city) but when a bitch comes into season in the city, unless you are going to drive to the country or walk very late at night and early in the morning, there is a risk that boys may come searching for her unless you just don't walk her for 3 weeks.

We haven't bothered yet with spaying our two as we live in a rural area with a very well fenced, huge, farm yard so they can exercise and be safe when in season, so no safety issues for us.
 
Damnation said:
^^ This.

Nearly lost our old Lab bitch to Pyrometria, at the age of 12 she had to be spayed but thankfully she came through the operation fine.

We have 2 younger bitches that I think we will probably have spayed when they hit 7-8.

To be honest, if you arne't going to breed get her spayed. I don't know where you live OP (Country or city) but when a bitch comes into season in the city, unless you are going to drive to the country or walk very late at night and early in the morning, there is a risk that boys may come searching for her unless you just don't walk her for 3 weeks.

We haven't bothered yet with spaying our two as we live in a rural area with a very well fenced, huge, farm yard so they can exercise and be safe when in season, so no safety issues for us.
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thanks- I live in the middle of nowhere apart from when I am work. Doesn't look like I will get a bitch now anyway-unless its from a rescue (unlikely-the only rescues who'll look at me are for Eastern European dogs) and it will then already be spayed.
 
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