Keeping dogs isolated for immunity

[Clodagh]

I wonder if the increasing lengths of time dogs are expected not to interact after their jabs is having any impact on the number of poorly socialised dogs around? It was first jab at 6 weeks and off you go in my youth, now it seems to be 14 weeks odd. Not saying pups sho0uld be weaned at 6 weeks, I agree we have moved on from there. I did get our two labs at just 7 weeks though.
If pups only meet other pups at 'parties' and learn to throw themselves on every dog they meet for a play that must give them a skewed view on life. Surely it is better to meet a dog who tells them to sod off sometimes?
If dogs only meet other dogs while being carried, making them higher and relying on their human for safety how do they learn to have their own conversations?
This is a genuinly interested question, not having a dig at anyone, we all tend to do what our vets recommend.

 

[Abi90]

I agree completely that it shouldn't be so long! It's not fair on the pup and it's difficult to socialise them with adult dogs if you don't know anyone well enough to take your puppy round their house.

Apparently the 4 weeks thing is that they've just changed the vaccine and it supposed to cover more and be better. Some practices are still using up the old vaccine and some are now stocking the new one.

I also think it's potentially futile to some extent, unless you're disinfecting everything every time you come indoors you are bringing nasties in with you, and cats and foxes will walk through the garden carrying nasties.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

I wonder if the increasing lengths of time dogs are expected not to interact after their jabs is having any impact on the number of poorly socialised dogs around? It was first jab at 6 weeks and off you go in my youth, now it seems to be 14 weeks odd. Not saying pups sho0uld be weaned at 6 weeks, I agree we have moved on from there.

I talked to some vets I work with about this, they all agreed that they knew of far more dogs PTS through poor socialisation than through lepto. My vet said to get him out two weeks after his first jag but to keep away from water/rat 'likely' areas for a week after his second (4 weeks after the first). I live in the country lol, so I avoided obviously rat-risky areas but got him out as soon as I could. I had thought of carrying him places in the first two weeks but he was already almost 10kg, so that went out the door-I was just careful what we did and with whom we did it with. He was 10 weeks when I got him, last one was 12 weeks and I didn't have any worries socialising either-its perfectly doable.

I didn't want my pup to be the only dog in the house, it just turned out that way so doing the best I can. We have lots of other dogs at work, he gets off lead playtime with them and a couple of older dogs. we also go on on lead walks with known and unknown (through FB group) dogs. He gets walked in dog heavy places that I have no intention of walking in usually!

 

[blackcob]

Who is saying 14 weeks, and what is their reasoning? Haven't encountered that one yet, our protocol has stayed the same for a while and allows for pups to go out and about a week after their second DHP, so around 11 weeks. Only the final leptospirosis vacc is given later but the risk of contracting that is considered lesser than the need to socialise the pup early.

Our puppy parties are no longer a free for all either and often use an adult stooge dog. The free for all approach is amazingly popular with clients though and definitely what they expect, whether it's good for their puppy or not, which might be why so many practices still do it.

 

[Abi90]

Black cob. I was told by my vet when he had his first jab at 8 weeks that he couldn't go out, second jab would be 4 weeks later and then he had to wait a further 2 weeks after that to go out. Taking him to 14 weeks old by the time he could go out.

Our puppy parties are not a free for all. It's carefully structured to make sure that less confident puppies are not bowled over by the more boisterous ones and involves human socialisation too as he gets passed around the group.

 

[dollyanna]

Most good resources/trainers will recommend meet and greets with adult vaccinated dogs in "safe" areas such as their homes as much as possible in that period before they are safe to go on the ground in public for exactly this reason, but most people probably don't do enough or make the effort, thinking they'll just wait and do it in a few weeks when it's easier.

 

[bonny]

I have a puppy who is now 4 months old and was told by my vet to walk him as much as I wanted. He told me he despairs at the number of puppies he sees who arrive in cars and are carried and who are already overweight. The only dogs he would advise going slowly with excerise when young are the very big breeds and even then he said most people over do it.......

 

[galaxy]

Black cob. I was told by my vet when he had his first jab at 8 weeks that he couldn't go out, second jab would be 4 weeks later and then he had to wait a further 2 weeks after that to go out. Taking him to 14 weeks old by the time he could go out.

Our puppy parties are not a free for all. It's carefully structured to make sure that less confident puppies are not bowled over by the more boisterous ones and involves human socialisation too as he gets passed around the group.

Ask your vet to do the second parvo jab at 10 weeks so you can start walking him 10 days after that, then have just the lepto at 12 weeks. Just keep away from water courses.

My vet did this. It's totally fine. Just some vets are doing what you described which is not good for socialisation!

Also you can invite dogs to yours or take pup to people's houses to socialise. Just make sure the dogs have been vaccinated

 

[Abi90]

Ask your vet to do the second parvo jab at 10 weeks so you can start walking him 10 days after that, then have just the lepto at 12 weeks. Just keep away from water courses.

My vet did this. It's totally fine. Just some vets are doing what you described which is not good for socialisation!

Also you can invite dogs to yours or take pup to people's houses to socialise. Just make sure the dogs have been vaccinated

He's got the second one tomorrow. He's had dogs visit and he's been to meet others. It's just the excess energy from being cooped up and not enough external stimuli that was beginning to get difficult!

 

[Clodagh]

Our puppy parties are no longer a free for all either and often use an adult stooge dog. The free for all approach is amazingly popular with clients though and definitely what they expect, whether it's good for their puppy or not, which might be why so many practices still do it.

That sounds like such a good idea. My old lurcher hates puppies and teaches them everything they need to know abnout manners, but never hurts them, I don't know how I will teach the next one as Sash will be gone and the labradors are just too polite and easygoing.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

I have a puppy who is now 4 months old and was told by my vet to walk him as much as I wanted. He told me he despairs at the number of puppies he sees who arrive in cars and are carried and who are already overweight. The only dogs he would advise going slowly with excerise when young are the very big breeds and even then he said most people over do it.......

Different issue and I'd love to talk to the same vet when he encounters young dogs with joint issues. There's a reason you can't start eg fly ball with babies. Their joints aren't fixed at such a young age. My lot had to wait til the second jab plus 7 days, they're lean and gorgeous, always have been except when I found Bear practically inside a bag of kibble in the early days. Looked like he'd swallowed a basketball!

 

[SusieT]

its called science - its advanced therefore dog vaccinations have changed - vaccinations can finish at 10 weeks so you are well within the good socialisation window - its no excuse for poor socialisation -10/12/14 week old pups are all easily socialised.

 

[twiggy2]

At work we have been giving the third (L4) vaccine for over a year now and our advice is still that pups can go out a week after their second vaccination.
2nd one is not given before 10 weeks and must be between a 3-4 week window of the first so depending how quick of the mark breeders and owners are the pups should be on the floor out and about from 11 weeks.
We suggest pups are fine to visit vaccinated dogs in their homes or for vaccinated dogs to visit.
Also taking the puppy to places like train stations, shopping centres etc is great mental stimulation for them but they should be carried till the week after 2nd vaccs.
Also try some search/ hide and seek and brain games at home, you could also take pup to visit people without dogs the new environment is still stimulating.
Also make pup work for food, don't just put a bowl of it down, throw it over the patio or lawn so it takes time and effort to find.

 

[CorvusCorax]

Pups get fat because they are fed too much, and of the wrong foods, not because they don't get 'exercised' enough. Exposure to lots of experiences, brain training and learning to learn is exhausting enough for young pups.

 

[Dry Rot]

However did we manage before vaccinations? I am old enough to remember when they became generally available (1950's for distemper). Yes, canine distemper was a scourge but not a killer of healthy adult dogs. So a bit like Strangles in dogs). One big commercial kennels (500 to 750 dogs) used to deliberately introduce canine distemper so they could advertise their dogs as proofed against the disease.

 

[Moobli]

I have always taken my pups out from the moment I get them (7-8 weeks) to meet friendly vaccinated dogs known to me and also to get them accustomed to traffic and noises that they don't see at home (I live out in the sticks). I also have adult dogs at home, and there are my husband's working dogs.

In terms of exercise, my pups get as much running around on soft ground (such as in the garden) as they wish but it is not forced exercise - they stop when they are tired. In terms of lead exercise on hard ground I try to stick to the rule of thumb which is a ratio of five minutes exercise per month of age (up to twice a day) until the puppy is fully grown, i.e. 15 minutes (up to twice a day) when three months old, 20 minutes when four months old etc. I do lots of fun, short training sessions and scent work and make them work for their food - either as rewards in these sessions or as suggested above, by scattering their food in the grass for them to search and find.

I think by far the biggest problem is that dogs are over-bred and many breeders do far too little with pups while they are in their care and don't pay enough attention to the temperament and personality of the dam (and sire) in terms of their temperament and that of the maternal and paternal grandparents, ggrandparents etc. Genetics play a huge role in a dog's adult temperament. Socialising and habituation are important (from as early as possible), of course, but I strongly believe that if the puppy has a strong genetic background then it is going to be a much more balanced and stable character to work with and it will bounce back from any knock-backs or gaps in its socialisation. Whereas a puppy with a weak, genetic background will always be more nervous and fearful - although good socialisation will improve this. However, a pup of this type will never bounce back as quickly, or as completely, as a pup with strong genetics.

This article says it much better than I can ...

http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/why-i-hate-socialisation/

 

[Moobli]

Pups get fat because they are fed too much, and of the wrong foods, not because they don't get 'exercised' enough. Exposure to lots of experiences, brain training and learning to learn is exhausting enough for young pups.

I agree with this, but also think that there is still the belief that puppies should be chunky and cuddly - ie "puppy fat", but all the vets I have spoken to in recent times think it is far better to have lean pups that aren't putting too much weight and pressure on their growing bones and joints.

 

[monte1]

Having just got a new springer puppy four weeks ago after sadly losing one of our cockers in a horrid accident in July.
i will add my views, FWIW
our puppy arrived four weeks ago aged 8 weeks, breeder had the first jab done few days before, but second could not be done till age 12 weeks ( new vaccine)

I feel it is a personal decision regarding taking them out, versus not getting to see the world and socialise at those crucial early stages, so from day one she was out in the car crate with my other dog, ( we carried her a lot!) but came and met the horses, saw the sheep and other sights and sounds, she also met several of my friends dogs at BBQ parties( at their own homes) she took it all in her stride

from 8 weeks she came with us to the local pub - not put down on the floor or walked around waterways etc) I am careful where i take her for a pee and dont mix her with dogs, I do not know are vaccinated, but she has been everywhere our older dog goes and learned plenty.

she finally had her second jab last week and yesterday we took her to her first proper outing on lead, ( lovely small local country show) she had a wonderful time was very calm and confident when meeting people and dogs and made lots of friends.

from day one we started basic training and she sits waits for her food and will fetch a ball back for you ( it is all a big game to her!) hoping she will make a good gundog in couple years!
so I guess I am saying it is all a calculated risk and you have to decide whether to keep you puppy couped up or take them out and manage the risks as best you can.