Kicking out when cantering (videos)

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NicandLiv

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This is Dee. Irish Cob mare. Had her since October, she is 14 years old and hasn't been cantered with a rider on her due to her previous owner being too fearful of her.

Below is a video of her a couple of days ago when she was being dreadful, like.. bullet through the head dreadful

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtlZDUDyQTs

To me the kicking in that video is different to the kicking out in the cantering video.

What are all your opinions on the kicking out when cantering? Is it just one of those things the more I do it the less she will do it? Not sure if she is excited, or throwing a strop or what... As I noticed her tail went up a bit whenever the canter is being asked for.

She has had her back and teeth checked and saddle fitter out recently too
 
Was the previous owner scared of her because of this same behaviour? Personally if a horse did this with me I'd be looking at excluding pain or discomfort. But you say that she's been checked so guess that rules back pain out...probably.
 
I am no expert but to me she looks crooked and hollow and I think therein lies your problem. I would be working to straighten her in walk and trot and get her using her backend and bending. To me she needs lots and lots of suppling exercises - shoulder in , travers, serpentines, decreasing and increasing circles. If you let her trot around with her head in the air she is not using her back end and she will be tense and uncomfortable. It takes months of exercises to build the correct topline muscles, especially in an older horse. Could you get a trainer for a few sessions to give you some good schooling exercises to work with?
 
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Obviously first things first - vet/farrier/dentist/physio, but I don't think there's NECESSARILY anything wrong with her as such - I know if I was suddenly asked to do sprinting, having never done it in my life, I would complain! It could just be she doesn't have the appropriate topline and is finding the work hard, and also has probably learnt that these behaviours get her out of work.

Does she still do it when you give her a loose rein and get into a light/forward seat? At the moment I wouldn't worry too much about steering and stopping, just think forwards and try and ask for transitions using your seat rather than your hands. Reward her when she does anything remotely helpful. Does she still do this hacking in company on a loose rein?

My ex racer did this solidly for about three months when I first got him, he found everything hard, understandably (circles, being asked to lower his head, me sitting his canter etc) and if he finds something difficult, his first reaction was, and still is to an extent, NO.

He's been physio-d and vetted repeatedly over the years and given a clean bill of health, in fact is being McTimoney'd later today. The trick was to build him up so gradually that he was firstly strong enough to canter a circle with me on him, before actually attempting it, and secondly wasn't being asked to do things too far outside of his comfort zone. I try to do most of my schooling on hacks, so he doesn't realise he's actually working. He won his last couple of dressage tests, which I never though could happen! And he does still have his moments, but strangely only when he's asked to do something he doesn't want to... If she has used this behaviour in the past, and the old owner has immediately backed off from asking whatever it was she was asking, the horse has probably learnt that this behaviour releases pressure.

I would say you need to really build up her strength and topline (lots of lunging in a pessoa, pole work, hill work) and work on the basic aids from the ground. When you are asking her to stop with the reins, she's resisting, which generally is simply a lack of understanding. Treat her as a horse that hasn't been broken in!
 
Lovely little horse :).

I'd get a mouth check done in case it's a problem with rein contact and maybe have someone look at her back legs to make sure there isn't a problem there.

If she's never been cantered in circles she probably finds it really hard. The kick out just looks like she's objecting to something - probably you insisting that she does as she is told and it's probably a strategy that has worked for her in the past. I would call that expressing an opinion rather rudely rather than bad behaviour.

Can you get her out hacking and do some cantering out? If it's not caused by pain I would think if she doesn't get away with it it will just improve as she gets fitter and understands that it doesn't get her anywhere.
 
Does she do it on the lunge?

At best you have a horse which is very stiff and not balanced enough with a rider on to go into (and maintain) canter on a bend. This needs plenty of time on the lunge to help her get her balance and keep her cantering on a circle. As mentioned above she is very crooked so time spent schooling in walk and trot to get her really stepping under and working over her back will ultimately get her canter work stronger.

At worst she has an underlying issue with her back which isn't being picked up and needs more investigation.

Do you lunge her before you get on? Have you tried cantering her in a forward seat? If so, do either of these things make it easier for her?
 
My first port of call would be the saddle. It may fit the horse but I'm not convinced it fits you. Vids not great but it seems to me far too much of your weight is to the back of the saddle which will be causing pressure issues.
 
10 years of unschooled, inverted stiffness and bad manners by the look of things.

Subject to pain being excluded, I would get the tack off, put a equi ami on her on the longest setting and spend time getting her to stretch. When she can take a contact down and forwards and lift her shoulders move onto to ridden work with lots of transitions in walk and trot, add lateral work in leg yield to strengthen the hind legs. Forget canter until all this can be achieved easily. Once it is in place I would canter for the first time on a slight hill out hacking.

With respect I think your rider in the clips is hanging onto the front end and exacerbating the hollow, inverted frame that the horse wants to carry herself in. Until the horse is carrying itself and able to step under it will struggle to canter. It will be a long job at her age, I bought one in July 2012, only 6 year old but exactly the same problem. Mine is a heavyweight maxi cob, very powerful mare, it took nearly 12 months to establish the basics, get rid of unwanted muscle and persuade her she could go nicely. Here are a couple of pictures for you. Two show the horse resisting and against the hand, inverted and hollow. Then showing some improvement with a more active hind leg and more open frame.

Please don't reach for the draw rein on your girl. The rider on my mare is very very experienced and rides with a totally independent seat.

Hope this helps you to fix your problem, in a nut shell, you want long and low, build the back and hind leg up which will in turn lighten the front end, activate that back end and allow the horse to physically be strong enough to canter.



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She looks to be unbalanced, quite crooked, and agree with AA the rider in the vid is riding with the hand brake on making it impossible for the horse to stretch forward and down compounding the hollowness so not helping with the issues.
I also agree that working from the ground first to help build a bit of topline and get the horse working forward, so basically what AA says
 
Fantastic thank you for all your replies, it seems most of you have the same opinion which is great. She has had a head to toe check by a physio and nothing is ''wrong'' with her pain wise, it's just her attitude. Yes her previous owner was scared of her because of her kicking and she said whenever she kicked out, rider would get off and walk her back home.

I cantered her once on a hack, which is when she first did one with me on her (the woman in the video is a friend of mine who is much more experienced as I am a novice and haven't learnt to canter myself so I am enlisting her help to ensure that everything is done as best as possible.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPDLguzD8G0

When I did this, it took a while to get her going, it was like she was saying "am I really allowed to go faster?" She kept trying to break into one but slowing down, but to be honest I think that's more me and quite possibly I was giving the wrong aids etc so she may have been confused. She never kicked out on this one, haven't cantered her in a hack since as she's moved yards and she takes a little while to settle in and gain confidence.

Lunging well... This is a tricky one.

This is how she has been taught to lunge. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3KVkXdOwfc

So now I am not doing that, as I don't think it's useful at all. Whenever I get the lunge whip out she goes doolally, kicking trotting cantering kicking some more. I have been doing it without the lunge whip and using more body language, but yes if I ask her to go faster or do more work she will kick out then go a bit mad cantering around (even if I only asked her to trot) . The main issue we are working on is getting her into a larger circle, and getting her to stop stopping and coming into me which is what she has been taught. I have never lunged her before riding.

I will definitely enlist the help of someone though, as I am a novice I want to ensure whatever I do for my mare is the best I can possibly give her, I don't want to ''ruin her more''.

I will look up some more stretching and bending exercises and work on that with her for now in walk and trot. I did manage last night to get her bending round my leg for the first time, normally if you move your leg/foot anywhere (even putting it back in the stirrup) she just shoots forward as she's really sensitive. I will spend some time working on lunging and getting her lunging properly.

She always walks and trots with her head in the air, how do you encourage her head to go a bit more downwards?
 
Personally I think she is 'just' resisting the leg aid. in all the vids the kick happens just after the rider uses their leg - particularly the outside leg. She is not all that well balanced always leads to the left but visit any riding school and you see horses as unbalanced as this cantering about willingly enough. IMO this is about re-educating the horse to the forward aid so that rather than the riders leg being an annoyance (which she may not know the real meaning of) it becomes a request for something. I would work lots of transitions walk halt, walk trot etc being really really clear about leg on to move forward leg passive as soon as she moves off. try to do less and less. She looks pretty forward going on the whole and if she was owned by someone quite nervy they may not have used their legs much at all (being more worried about stopping) so the mare have very little idea what the legs actually mean.
 
Hello again, on phone so will be brief. I would spend a bit of money and get someone to teach you how to lunge a 'green' horse. By the looks of it she may be 14 but she is missing a number of the basics. A horse that turns in on the lunge needs to be driven forward and away from the handler. This doesn't have to be harsh but they need to learn what is 'your' space and 'their' space. They soon get the hang of it and yes many will buck at the start but if the handler is confident they will stop. Without a good basis on which lungeing is established you will struggle to correct the ridden work. She needs time to get her confidence and build up muscle without a rider on her back. Good luck xx
 
Then I have been riding her completely wrong! OH dear, naughty me. I only use voice commands with her and never any leg as she goes straight from voice, and whenever I've used my leg she flinches or jumps, so I just thought that hey.. why not just stick to voice commands lol. She walks, trots, canters, stops, and turns on voice commands which she picks up really quickly. After I've ridden her for 5 minutes, I rarely have to use any rein contact because I just tell her what to do and she does it.

Okay. Will definitely be using leg and trying to teach her it's a positive thing, not a negative thing.


Yes will definitely be getting someone in to teach me how to lunge properly and safely :-)
 
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Oh bless her she sounds very genuine and a bit confused. Leg isn't a harsh 'tool' but rather another method of communication with a horse. Once they understand it it offers them a bit of a security blanket to remind them they need to move forward and used correctly helps to balance out the weight of the rider. :-)
 
She is lovely. I've only been riding since September last year, and I purchased her 4 weeks later. I would say hindsight I probably shouldn' thave done it, but I don't regret it for a second. I'm loving everything she is teaching me, and I think with the skills I have I am bringing the better side out in her a lot.

She came from a well known puppy farm in Pulborough, then sold to a lady where it didn't work out after 2 years and now I have her. So sometimes I have to kind of step back and appreciate that it's still new territory for her, this whole riding and respect thing. Hopefully if the weather is nice this weekend we can have a nice in hand hack (there is a pig around the corner from us in a field, not a chance in hell will I be riding her past that first time!)
 
NicandLiv said:
Then I have been riding her completely wrong! OH dear, naughty me. I only use voice commands with her and never any leg as she goes straight from voice, and whenever I've used my leg she flinches or jumps, so I just thought that hey.. why not just stick to voice commands lol. She walks, trots, canters, stops, and turns on voice commands which she picks up really quickly. After I've ridden her for 5 minutes, I rarely have to use any rein contact because I just tell her what to do and she does it.
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well if she already knows the voice commands that's a great start - all you need to do is to start pairing the voice command with a very subtle leg aid. Just press your calves where they hang against her sides (not enough to make her jump - no one else need see it, think of it as a secret signal between you and her) and very soon she will understand that a small squeeze means walk on and so on. she will probably feel much more secure when she knows this - because she may well not have any idea what the legs mean at the moment so she is just annoyed or worried because every now and again someone gives her a little kick.
 
if i was you i'd send her off to someone experienced for a little while till she gets the basics right. At the moment she looks confused, stroppy and uncomfortable. The person riding isn't doing any favours as she's allowed to go back to trot once she kicks, so her evasion is working.

If you're not sure of how to teach her then get someone in who does. I am riding 30 years but i still had to get get someone to take my exracer for few weeks to teach him the basics properly. Best money i ever spent, and he came back a happier horse who understood what was being asked of him.
 
The basics need to be re established as she doesn't understand how to go forwards nor does she understand what the aids are, plus the rider needs to be taught to sit up & make the horse respond to simple leg and seat aids.

Get her lunging properly in side reins- going forwards into walk trot and canter with list of transitions, don't take any nonsense about the whip - put the whip pressure on even more if she's silly. Don't let her drop the contact on the lunge line- if the lunge line goes baggy then you know she's not going forwards enough.

When she's lunging perfectly, on the aids, in balance walk trot canter with lots of trans, then she'll be perfect under saddle ( providing the rider is riding correctly!)
 
NicandLiv said:
Fantastic thank you for all your replies, it seems most of you have the same opinion which is great. She has had a head to toe check by a physio and nothing is ''wrong'' with her pain wise, it's just her attitude. Yes her previous owner was scared of her because of her kicking and she said whenever she kicked out, rider would get off and walk her back home.
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Just to add this in - a physio is not qualified to rule out pain, yes they might be ok to check her over muscle wise and there might not be anything obviously wrong, but you need a vet fully rule out pain issues. With my mare she kicks out in canter, always thought it was just attitude and being mareish - physio also ruled pain out as they couldnt find anything. I still wasnt sure that she wasnt in pain, I still had a niggling feeling so vet came out and she had some swelling below her pastern which was causing her pain. This swelling had built up over time due to her conformation, she has straight hocks which means she takes her weight in the wrong place on her hooves, leading to pain and discomfort. Solution was to put different shoes on her with extended bars at the back to help even out the pressure on her hooves.

So please get a vet out for one last check - it could be a case if she's been doing this with her old owner that some sort of pain/discomfort has built up over time and it will need sorting out. Mares also suffer with hormone problems, so you can talk to your vet about that whilst they are there. Kicking out in canter can also be a common symptom of kissing spines or ulcers, again these are things that only vets can diagnose.

It really will be worth getting the vet out to give her a once over, show him these videos and explain what she is doing - at least then you can rule all pain out and know its behavioural.

I agree with everyone else - looks like your little mare doesnt have any basics established, she is unbalanced, hollow and not at all supple. No offence to your experienced friend but she is not helping either, her position is making things worse so probably kinder for your horse if you stop your friend from riding and go right back to the start. Start with groundwork, get some lessons on how to lunge properly and work on that for a few weeks/months. If she cant work properly in walk/trot (i.e. with her head in the air - she needs to learn to work from behind using her back end) then dont worry about canter for a while, its like the saying - you shouldnt run before you can walk.

Once the groundwork is good and she is working well on the lunge, then start to ride - and it will be best for both of you if you start riding her rather than getting someone else to ride. You need to learn, and the only way you'll learn is to get on and ride her. But make sure you have an instructor present to help with your riding, find someone qualified (not just a friend) to teach you and your mare.

Good luck!
 
A good way to rule out pain is to give Bute and see if the behaviour persists. If it does then you can be a little more sure that it's not pain related and crack on with re-schooling. If shes much better without I would investigate further into pain related issues, a good vet would be my first port of call.

Do you have a good instructor OP? If not I would look into getting one (I'm sure people on here can recommend someone good in your area). As good as the advice is on here some situations need an experienced person on the ground talking you through it step by step.

Good luck, she looks a nice sort just needs some manners and direction.
 
Please do get a vet out to check your horse. It is a really basic step to take when a horse displays unwanted behaviour. Aside from the kicking, she is very stiff on both reins, very unwilling to move forwards and very short in her stride all of which indicate a problem. I am sorry to sound harsh but it is really important that you get a vet out. This horse either has a physical problem or is exceptionally green (could she have been a broodmare previously?).

If physical causes are excluded then you need to get a decent rider to teach her how to work properly. With all due respect to your friend, she's not up to the job, you need a proper professional but you also need to take into account that changing a horse's way of going takes months so it will be a substantial investment.

At the end of all this there is no guarrantee this is a horse suitable for a complete beginner (again no disrespect intended, we were all beginners at some point). Bying a horse a few months into learning to ride is an extremely ambitious gamble, buying a horse with a known history of problems is incomprehensible to me to be honest. You will need to spend a lot of money and time on this horse to have half a chance of getting anywhere with her.

Sorry to be so direct but unless you take action now you may well get into more and more trouble with your horse.
 
I did forget to mention she was imported from ireland to be a broodmare. Not entirely sure if she had any foals or anything about her past as she never even had a passport (lady who owned her before me got her one).

I am currently on the look out for somewhere I could possibly send her to for a couple of weeks for complete re schooling
 
I appreciate your comment about buying a horse too quickly and completely take it on board.

She has come a long way since I got her. She used to bite being tacked up, nap when schooling and hacking out all the time. Bolting when hacking out in company and by herself, actual bucking bucking, rearing at dentist and farrier and if you asked her to do something she didn't want to do she would rear under saddle. Moved when being tied up and whenever you groomed her she would shove you out of the way. Bargey when being led. I have spent a lot of time with her everyday building trust and a bond, she has both vet and farrier brilliantly, stands perfect now to be tacked up and groomed, stands whilst you mount, doesn't nap at all on hacks and doesn't bolt, perfect being led my 7 year old often leads her round doing in hand stuff with her and riding her as well. hasn't reared under saddle at all. So I am not completely useless lol. I have seen her progress and turn into a really good pony that my daughter has lessons on (she never has bucked or kicked out with my daughter on) and is happy generally within herself.

I will still enlist a professional trainer to help me school her. I would ideally want to be involved as much as possible in this but will send her away if situation needs me to do so.
 
If she doesn't buck or kick out with your daughter on, that could shed light on the situation - It could be that your daughter isn't asking much of her, so she has no reason to kick, which is fine, but equally it could mean that it is something to do with her back and the extra weight is an issue. If your daughter puts her leg on, does the horse react?

Who is riding her in the videos?
 
NicandLiv said:
I appreciate your comment about buying a horse too quickly and completely take it on board.

She has come a long way since I got her. She used to bite being tacked up, nap when schooling and hacking out all the time. Bolting when hacking out in company and by herself, actual bucking bucking, rearing at dentist and farrier and if you asked her to do something she didn't want to do she would rear under saddle. Moved when being tied up and whenever you groomed her she would shove you out of the way. Bargey when being led. I have spent a lot of time with her everyday building trust and a bond, she has both vet and farrier brilliantly, stands perfect now to be tacked up and groomed, stands whilst you mount, doesn't nap at all on hacks and doesn't bolt, perfect being led my 7 year old often leads her round doing in hand stuff with her and riding her as well. hasn't reared under saddle at all. So I am not completely useless lol. I have seen her progress and turn into a really good pony that my daughter has lessons on (she never has bucked or kicked out with my daughter on) and is happy generally within herself.

I will still enlist a professional trainer to help me school her. I would ideally want to be involved as much as possible in this but will send her away if situation needs me to do so.
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Given you have managed to sort her bolting/rearing/bucking/napping/barging behaviour so effectively, I am not sure what the problem is?

Surely you are able to address the issue of bunny hopping in canter? :confused:
 
NicandLiv said:
I should be able to, I can't unless I know why she is doing it and that was the reason I asked I wasn't sure if it was out of excitment, being stroppy if its a common thing etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57CcQ0KTxhw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

that's my daughter riding her. ignore the way tje bridle has been put on. it was the first time she tacked her up by herself
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Your daughter is very very over-horsed on her IMO - size wise and capability wise.

Appreciate that you are trying to sort the issue, but on this occasion I would be considering selling her to someone more capable, or at the very least sending her away for a long period of time with a professional.

Good luck.
 
she doesn't do more work in regards to pushing her on, my daughter doesn't trot yet but she will do things like making her go over poles, tarpaulin etc both in hand an under saddle and gets her to bend round her leg in a circle and serpentines as well and dee just happily does it.
 
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