Kind of continuing from Diggerbez's post..Trailblazers SJing upto 1.15, thoughts?

[KatB]

Thoughts?

Do you think this should be more the "norm" so people are competing at unaffiliated for longer? Trailblazers have now started doing classes upto 1.15m and as a result are scrapping the 65cm classes...

Personally I think it's a bit pointless, as I can't really think many people would jump unaff upto 1.15, being as the fact there were regularly only 1 or 2 people in a 1.05 unaff class...the only people I can think that may do are the eventers over the winter who don't want to BS, or people with horses who have a lot of winnings BS, so don;t want the risk of putting more money on the horses card, but need ring experience for whatever reason....but then they are unlikely to go to things like the TB finals.

I also know locally 65cm was very popular..

So, what are peoples thoughts?

 

[Jane_Lou]

I agree - at our local venues there are a max of a couple in the 1.05m so really can't see it being popular. We can't do Trailblazers sj as adults on ponies are not allowed to jump in the senior classes so we may do BS once I get a job! It seems daft to me - BS allow ponies to be registered as horses and jumped in adult classes and obviously we compete BE - the reason trailblazers give for not allowing this is the distances - BE and BS clearly don't think this is an issue and our long striding 14.2 had no problems!

 

[vam]

I kind of agree. I did a tb 65cm class as a bit of ring expierience but it was very popular with the ponies and younger riders. After 85cm the class numbers really dwindle and i cant think of one person that i know that has a horse capable of jumping a 1.15 course that isnt already aff.
Personally i want to pure sj and will aff next year when we're jumping 90cm purely so im jumping proper courses even at that height. Dont think i would jump in tb classes instead of aff for that reason especially as they get bigger.
Im sure there maybe people who will jump in them but i wouldnt introduce them at the cost of the 65cm classes.

 

[millitiger]

I think 1.15m is probably a step too far for regular unaffiliated (for getting the numbers to make it viable) but I do wish more venues held up to 1.05 (with 1.10 2nd round) as it is impossible around here to jump that height despite lots of show centres.

I only want to sj that height as practice for BE and can't afford to BS as well- I think when you get over 1.10m you will be BS'ing anyway.

Btw, what is the second round height at Trailblazers?

 

[Lanky Loll]

I think its a good thing - I haven't commented on DB's post, but this would be a return to "where we were" in the 80's / early 90's, and being Trailblazers should mean a better standard of track than just the average unaff.
We used to see unaff opens up to 3'6" / 4ft locally, but over the years it really seems to have "dumbed down" to around 2' 6" which I don't think is helpful to progression.
Back when I first went aff it was because it was a bit ridiculous asking my 12.2 to jump the 14.2 or horse open tracks all the time in order to jump a decent fence. British Novice (or Badminton as it was then / British Nervous as Dad calls it ) was unaffiliated first round and you had to register to jump the 2nd's.
With the reduction in track size at aff/BS I don't know that we've seen an improvement in RIDER skills, we just see more horses jumping the small opens that are a great money spinner for the venue but does it really encourage progression? We used to do BN / Disco / Newcomers / 1m open / Fox ... and you'd see horses progress now people might jump BN but then jump open after open without moving on, even though there are LOADS more qualifiers and stages about than there used to be.

 

[_Rach_]

I agree and disagree.
I agree that the 1.15 height is a class that not many will do, but then on the other hand 1.10 isn't that big and im sure there will be lots of entries. Maybe not this side of Xmas but coming in to the 2011 season i bet there will be a few more, specially those wanting to have a crack at novice next year (me )

But then again I wouldn’t go to the finals. 1 -because it’s to expensive and 2- isn’t there a 20cm height increase? Therefore the 1.10 class would be up to 1.30 and the 1.15 up to 1.35!!!!!! And 1.30& 1.35 to me is HUGE.

Trailblazers is also quite cheap, compared to BSJA(as far as im aware) and im sure there is more than just myself that couldn’t afford to compete and train through the winter if i had to use aff classes to jump the height that I wanted to? Surely there isn’t much point in jumping 1.05cm all winter when I will need to jump bigger come next year.....

So I suppose you could say the same for the 1.15 class people competing at INT still need to do something through the winter and this is a cheaper option and remember we are in a recession

 

[RW1]

Two of my local show centres are only doing upto 95/105 as they dont feel there is a market or want for the 110cm and 115cm classes. Those that qualify for 110cm/115cm are likely to be affilated combinations- will they pay to go to the championships at huge expense - I doubt it, Trailblazers IMHO doesn't put the same level of value on a horse that jumping round affilated 110/115 does.

 

[RW1]

Re heights of Trailblazers - I havent been to a 2nd round SJ before or finals in SJ but from watching a couple of videos on youtube of people jumping the 75cm the course does look 75cm - I dont think it goes up drastically but maybe someone who has been can confirm?

It doesnt say the course increases on the website unlike say Chiltern and Thames comps which say for instnace in a 80cm (FINALS will be at 90cm).

 

[siennamum]

I think its a good thing - I haven't commented on DB's post, but this would be a return to "where we were" in the 80's / early 90's, and being Trailblazers should mean a better standard of track than just the average unaff.
We used to see unaff opens up to 3'6" / 4ft locally, but over the years it really seems to have "dumbed down" to around 2' 6" which I don't think is helpful to progression.
Back when I first went aff it was because it was a bit ridiculous asking my 12.2 to jump the 14.2 or horse open tracks all the time in order to jump a decent fence. British Novice (or Badminton as it was then / British Nervous as Dad calls it ) was unaffiliated first round and you had to register to jump the 2nd's.
With the reduction in track size at aff/BS I don't know that we've seen an improvement in RIDER skills, we just see more horses jumping the small opens that are a great money spinner for the venue but does it really encourage progression? We used to do BN / Disco / Newcomers / 1m open / Fox ... and you'd see horses progress now people might jump BN but then jump open after open without moving on, even though there are LOADS more qualifiers and stages about than there used to be.

I agree, I think BS & Unaff jumping has become rather pitiful. In part I think it's because unaff has focussed on height of fences rather than height of animals and so all classes are simply speed classes. The only way for people to progress is to go affiliated there is simply no proper unaff competition any more. If Trailblazers could make it work that would be great.

In the late 70's your average unaff open was 3 ft 9 to 4ft, here's a pic from a local RC show:

 

[Gamebird]

Port Royal used to do unaff up to 1.20 but the classes above 1.10 rarely ran through lack of entries. I turned up a couple of times to do the 1.15 and 1.20 to find that there was no-one else in them. They did let me jump round anyway but they soon disappeared from the schedule. They do a max of 1.10 now. It's crazy really as these were BSJA built courses at a BSJA venue for unaff prices and offered reasonable prize money. I think they were trying to draw in the eventers too but it never happened.

I put a 'proper; open class on at a show I organised recently. It was 1m-1.10m but with proper spreads, related distances etc. It was exactly the same track as the previous class (90cm) but I wished that I hadn't built it so big as at least half the entries didn't get round , despite a lot of them having been round the track already in the 90cm class.

 

[Santa_Claus]

Ah but Gamebird if more than £10 first prize (i think that s the limit can't remember!) then BSJA members cannot enter the unaffil class. Not that this rule isn't broken on numerous occasions but it does exist and it will stop people entering But then that rule also stops BSJA judges/course builders etc assisting at those shows but we know that still happens at multiple venues

I would jump trailblazer bigger classes (1m05+ ) IF anywhere near me held them, but they don't, not a clue where the nearest one is to be honest as even West Wilts (normal closest one at 2h45) only goes up to 95cm!! I do though know I am in a minority as most eventers wanting to jump 1m+ go BSJA even if just on a ticket to guaruntee course quality (don't blame them!). Also a BSJA 1m05 open will fairly happily be the same as a BE novice course bar the two fences at 1m10 but if you jump clear you will be jumping 1m15 anyway

 

[dieseldog]

You can only qualify for the TB 2nd rounds if you are on a Grade C, not sure if there are any restrictions applied to eventers. Personally if I was jumping 1.15s I would rather do it BS as you get prize money.

Maybe the people jumping the 65cm class are not going to the finals? TB only makes its money if you register and then go to the finals. Show centres are not going to stop putting on a 65cm class, it just wont be a TB one.

The Crickland SJ series seems far more accesible to unaffliated riders than TB as you can actually afford to attend the final if you qualify!

 

[dieseldog]

I would jump trailblazer bigger classes (1m05+ ) IF anywhere near me held them, but they don't, not a clue where the nearest one is to be honest as even West Wilts (normal closest one at 2h45) only goes up to 95cm!!

West Wilts do go up to 1.05. Santa - where can you go unaffiliated?

 

[Santa_Claus]

I thought they only did up to 95 looking at their website other day. Either way I won't drive 2hr45 for an unaffil class when I can go just over an hour to do a better built course bsja yes extra entry fees and ticket cost but far less on deisel

 

[alwaysbroke]

QR

personally I will be sad to see the end of the 65cms class, it was a great starting point for children and young horses to start their competitive career over a well built track.

Now, usually I keep quiet, but I an going to put on a tin hat and be brave.

There is one local show around here that we wouldn't consider going to jump at the courses are so badly built, it just not worth doing. The local show we attend with Mini D_K (age 7 ) has the sj built by an experienced horseman, who is passing on his knowledge to members of the committee.
The standard of SOME of the jumping at theses show this year has been appalling, it seems to get worse as the classes get bigger. Six to 7 yrs ago, the courses were up to height, the open class getting to 3'6-3'9, now in the interests of Health and Safety it is felt that is not safe to build the Open course much bigger than 2'9. Some horses are raced at the jumps, on non existent lines, how these horses get over safely astounds me, its a case of hold your breath until its over. I would hate to see some of these combinations attempt a course of above a metre at Trailblazers.

Going back to the original point, I dont think bigger classes at Trailblazers are required, the entries get less as the height goes up, wouldn't organisers prefer the much larger entries at 65cms? To me it seems a shame to get rid of such a good starting point for alot of people.

(Disclaimer I am not a perfect rider and do get my lines wrong, but try to learn by my mistakes)

 

[stencilface]

Thing is, I think most people who have a horse that is capable of jumping 1.15 would affiliate it, seeing as there is a range of classes above and below that height to also do. Trouble with trailblazers is that the courses at the champs are at least 10cm bigger than the first rounds. Now if you have a horse that qualifies for the 1.15m finals, then it must be capable of jumping 1.25m - 1.30m.

If I had a horse that was capable of doing a 1.30m course, I certainly wouldn't bother with unaffiliated tbh.

I don't think most eventers would need the practise bigger than 1.05 - 1.10m would they? The majority of eventers (as in numbers) don't compete above that height anyway do they?

 

[Puffin]

I'm not sure there would be the demand for the bigger classes either; a few years ago I was bringing a horse (previously jumping Newc/fox) back into work after a tendon injury and took her to Trailblazers to check if she was up to it before registering. I planned to do the 1.05 but after waiting for hours I gave up and did the 85, I'm glad I did, there were 6 in the 95 and the 1.05 was cancelled.

I too am one of those who will rarely take a horse unaffiliated unless I know who’s building the course as its so variable, I’d rather jump less often over an 80-90 cm BS warm up and give a green horse a chance to jump out of rhythm and balance than have to haul it round absurd corners and down weird distances.

I like the idea of not having to pay BS fees, but really, you get what you pay for.

 

[jumptoit]

Personally I think they are a good idea for people who aren't sure if they are ready, for instance if I jumped 1m 15 BS I have to jump 1m 15 at PC areas provided I complete, so it could be with 80 faults!

But what isn't so great is there are a) none within 2 hours of me and b) they won't let seniors ride ponies but if there were some then I would just go HC .

ETA: Rather surprisingly I went to a local PC indoor SJing to find 8 in the Ponies 1m and 4 in the 1m 10 when there had only been 3 or 4 in all the lower classes and there were equal numbers in the horse sections!

 

[OneInAMillion]

I can see why they have done it, many people are not able to afford BS so it allows then to do a little more rather than be possibly stuck at 1m05/10

 

[diggerbez]

i think on one hand that its a really good idea- as suggested above it'll give people who don't want to/ can't afford to affiliate BS the chance to jump bigger fences that have been properly built. however, i agree that i don't think that it'll work as the vast majority of people with horses capable of jumping 1.15 regularly/well will have affiliated- precisely because there are so few opportunities of jumping this height unaffiliated! So its all a bit 'chicken and egg' really

 

[Gamebird]

I don't think most eventers would need the practise bigger than 1.05 - 1.10m would they? The majority of eventers (as in numbers) don't compete above that height anyway do they?

I didn't register my eventer BS until I was looking to move up to intermediate so went straight in at Newcomers and worked up through 1.15s to Foxhunter. There were always plenty of eventers in the Fox and usually quite a few staying on for the 1.30.

If you mean by volume then I'm sure there are hundreds of eventers out jumping BN/Disco every weekend however there are definitely plenty of eventers in the bigger classes over winter and as the eventing level gets higher so the SJing aspect gets more and more technical and demanding and the need for match practice also increases so I would be more likely, not less, to be going BS regularly with a top end eventer than a lower level one.

 

[stencilface]

I didn't register my eventer BS until I was looking to move up to intermediate so went straight in at Newcomers and worked up through 1.15s to Foxhunter. There were always plenty of eventers in the Fox and usually quite a few staying on for the 1.30.

If you mean by volume then I'm sure there are hundreds of eventers out jumping BN/Disco every weekend however there are definitely plenty of eventers in the bigger classes over winter and as the eventing level gets higher so the SJing aspect gets more and more technical and demanding and the need for match practice also increases so I would be more likely, not less, to be going BS regularly with a top end eventer than a lower level one.

Yes, but as you said - you'd be going BS to get the technical and demanding aspects of the course at the level. IME of trailblazers the course a lot of the time stays the same, or if not exactly the same, they move the numbers round, but don't change the technical difficulty of the course.

What with the eventers also needing to practise their dressage at BD over winter too ( ), I doubt there would be enough demand in most areas to warrant having regular 1.15m + unaff classes. I might be wrong, but there are not any (that I can think of) regular comps in my area (Yorks) that are unaff and above 1.10 on a regular basis.

BS is just better, where else would eventers get all their ammo for having a go for SJers wearing all the bling (which there was a shocking abundance of at Arena UK - much more than more northern venues )

 

[Mabel98]

Ah but Gamebird if more than £10 first prize (i think that s the limit can't remember!) then BSJA members cannot enter the unaffil class. Not that this rule isn't broken on numerous occasions but it does exist and it will stop people entering But then that rule also stops BSJA judges/course builders etc assisting at those shows but we know that still happens at multiple venues

I would jump trailblazer bigger classes (1m05+ ) IF anywhere near me held them, but they don't, not a clue where the nearest one is to be honest as even West Wilts (normal closest one at 2h45) only goes up to 95cm!! I do though know I am in a minority as most eventers wanting to jump 1m+ go BSJA even if just on a ticket to guaruntee course quality (don't blame them!). Also a BSJA 1m05 open will fairly happily be the same as a BE novice course bar the two fences at 1m10 but if you jump clear you will be jumping 1m15 anyway

West Wilts normally does a 1.05 class but there are very few entries. They do clear round if not enough people which is great as you still get to jump that height

 

[Mabel98]

West Wilts do go up to 1.05. Santa - where can you go unaffiliated?

Oops, sorry, just read this!

 

[DarkHorseB]

I think it would be a real shame if it is at the expense of the 65cm class. While I don't personally want to go and jump that height now they are very, very popular.
Agree at our local centres 1.05m plus very low entries. However if a market for 1.15m then great though I would prefer to BSJA anyway if I was jumping that height. Qualified for Trailblazers final last year but was so expensive cost was prohibitive and would not bother doing 2nd rounds again.

 

[Thistle]

1.05's don't run near me anymore due to lack or entries, 'tis the main reason why we go affiliated.

 

[Super_starz]

Our local runs unafiliated through the week upto 1.15cm (not trailblazers) for me they are great as there isn't loads of bsja in the area at the moment so its great practice. there isn't huge entries each week, but enough to run them.

 

[Stormy123456]

I like the bigger classes unaff. I can't afford to BS aswel as BE (having become a member, done one event, and Ballet have to have the rest of the season off - and basically payed £250 for one event!). Now that she's getting back into the swing of things, I plan to jump 1.10m + (ambitious, but possibly possible) over the winter, and if I had more time I'd be aiming to jump a unaff. 1.15m track next year-ish.

Luckily I live near Weston Lawns, which goes up to 1.20m, unaff I think. When I've done the 1.10m classes before, they've had about 5 entrants. Not sure how many do the 1.20m! I don't think I am good enough (SJ being our weakest phase), to warrant going BS (nor can I afford it), so the unaff. is really good for me.

 

[SplashofSoy]

They yard where i livery runs unaffiliated SJ and classes start at 55cm. Last one we had a huge number of entries, there were 35 entries in the 65/75 classes. There were 4 in the 95 and only 2 in the 1.05. When it comes to unaffilated the smaller classes are usually better attended and this is the market for those size classes. Dont think Trailblazers etc should sacrifice the smaller classes for the larger ones but should try and cater for all.