King Cotton Gold - what do people think?

I think he's a nice horse and he has a super temperament. He's ridden by an amateur and is going out competing in British Eventing. He showed plenty of jump at the SSGB and at his gradings the panels gave him a decent mark for his paces. I think you are wise to stick by him Magic. You should get an honest, trainable horse from him and it might just be very nice indeed.
 
I am so excited to see this discussion!! First I must declare my bias...I'm King Cotton Gold's owner and afraid also his rider, so first for the good news...I am not hereditary! I'm afraid I have to confess to just being an enthusiatic amatuer who has stumbled across this fabulous stallion and won't let go! (look at my eventing record...I'm rubbish!) I do realise my riding has a lot to be desired and I look a bit shoddy in the arena straight after Pippa Funnel, and I may reconsider attemping dressage in my XC saddle again, however this is the whole point of King Cotton Gold!
Last summer, Oliver Townend asked for the ride on him and after much deliberation, for the time being, I said no. Possibly a mistake, but the point I am trying to make is that King Cotton Gold represents everything I think we are losing with modern sports horse breeding. I appreciate these modern wonder stallions, I really do, and I recognise that if you want to win an olympic gold in dressage of SJ, you probably need one, but the availability of AI to all and sundry means our livery yards are flooded with "sons of Arco" types that most normal riders like me just can't ride. They are blooming hard to sit on and pretty firey and spooky...you have all seen them and probably ridden them.
King Cotton Gold harks back to the days of sound, safe sensible horses where even an enthusiastic amatuer can "have a go", maybe even get to Babminton one day, I won't win, but wow, wouldn't it be great!....and that's the point I am trying to make. He's taken me from PN to having a bash as 2* in two seasons, and yes, I'm afraid the falls were my fault...he is really clever actually... but the point is he jumped beautiful clears without the slightest hesitation next time out.
Re paces, it's true his trot is not flashy warmblood, but look at all the top eventers, they don't move like warmbloods because that sort of movement can lead to lameness when you put the kind of miles on that you need for an eventer. King Cotton Gold still has Grade 1 x-rays aged 12! And don't forget the paces you can't train so easily; the walk and canter are to die for and his jump is phenomenal, but I'm afraid I was too scared to jump higher than 1.20 at Addington! (see his scores from IHB and from the SSH grading...one of the hardest societies in UK to get licenced by). Its difficult not to see past those floaty, expressive prancing continental stallions, but whatever you choose to breed from, think long and hard about what you want. Is it an olympic champion, or do you want a little piece of magic and a lifelong friend who might just have the courage and heart to let you rub shoulders with the big boys one day....even if you are as rubbish as me!!
Wish us luck!!
 
Sonyac814 thanks for the input & again I apologise for being so blinkered. As I was also reminded that honesty in a horse can overcome many things, something I had forgotten. I have said in the past that you cant breed heart or the will to want to do the job. Temperment is all important & there is a bigger market for the sane reliable mount.
 
Sonya I am so glad to see your reply, its really easy for people to knock your horse on a forum like this and sometimes its quite unfair. I for one hope you have plenty of sucess in the future with your boy ! Good Luck :)
 
Sonyac814 said:
I am so excited to see this discussion!! First I must declare my bias...I'm King Cotton Gold's owner and afraid also his rider, so first for the good news...I am not hereditary! I'm afraid I have to confess to just being an enthusiatic amatuer who has stumbled across this fabulous stallion and won't let go! (look at my eventing record...I'm rubbish!) I do realise my riding has a lot to be desired and I look a bit shoddy in the arena straight after Pippa Funnel, and I may reconsider attemping dressage in my XC saddle again, however this is the whole point of King Cotton Gold!
Last summer, Oliver Townend asked for the ride on him and after much deliberation, for the time being, I said no. Possibly a mistake, but the point I am trying to make is that King Cotton Gold represents everything I think we are losing with modern sports horse breeding. I appreciate these modern wonder stallions, I really do, and I recognise that if you want to win an olympic gold in dressage of SJ, you probably need one, but the availability of AI to all and sundry means our livery yards are flooded with "sons of Arco" types that most normal riders like me just can't ride. They are blooming hard to sit on and pretty firey and spooky...you have all seen them and probably ridden them.
King Cotton Gold harks back to the days of sound, safe sensible horses where even an enthusiastic amatuer can "have a go", maybe even get to Babminton one day, I won't win, but wow, wouldn't it be great!....and that's the point I am trying to make. He's taken me from PN to having a bash as 2* in two seasons, and yes, I'm afraid the falls were my fault...he is really clever actually... but the point is he jumped beautiful clears without the slightest hesitation next time out.
Re paces, it's true his trot is not flashy warmblood, but look at all the top eventers, they don't move like warmbloods because that sort of movement can lead to lameness when you put the kind of miles on that you need for an eventer. King Cotton Gold still has Grade 1 x-rays aged 12! And don't forget the paces you can't train so easily; the walk and canter are to die for and his jump is phenomenal, but I'm afraid I was too scared to jump higher than 1.20 at Addington! (see his scores from IHB and from the SSH grading...one of the hardest societies in UK to get licenced by). Its difficult not to see past those floaty, expressive prancing continental stallions, but whatever you choose to breed from, think long and hard about what you want. Is it an olympic champion, or do you want a little piece of magic and a lifelong friend who might just have the courage and heart to let you rub shoulders with the big boys one day....even if you are as rubbish as me!!
Wish us luck!!
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Nice to see you on here Sonya814

I saw KCG at Hartpury last year and was impressed with him there. I think it is great that you are enjoying every minute you spend with your stallion and that he puts a smile on your face every day. That is exactly what it is all about.

There are those that will love him and those that won't, but it doesn't matter, because you do.

I hope to see both him and you again at next years SSGB.
 
Sonyac814, good luck and I do hope you make it to Badminton!

I do have to say, however, that most of the people who were at the SSGB are experienced breeders and hopefully able to look past big names and flashy paces and look at the horse underneath in a balanced manner.

With all due respect, I stand by my assessment that KCG is a very nice horse with undeniable good temperament and ability, but is not in my opinion breeding stallion material from what I saw of him. When he has progeny under saddle consistently doing well at advanced level, then I will be very happy to offer you my very humble apologies for misjudging him.
 
GinnieRedwings said:
When he has progeny under saddle consistently doing well at advanced level, then I will be very happy to offer you my very humble apologies for misjudging him.
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Ginnie be fair, how can you judge a stallion on that basis if his offspring dont go to homes that can produce a horse to advanced level? The Billy Stud keep their youngsters & produce them. Any that show real talent then get taken under the wing of the Funnells for more 1 2 1 treatment. Their stallions therefore are expected to have offspring at the higher levels.

KCG did disappoint in the fact he did not have that 'Look at Me' presence & I would have liked to have seen him following through in his movements. But I would not put him down just for the lack of advanced level offspring. Sponeck was a well bred, talented horse (though soured in his younger days) who should of done far better as a stallion. His offspring have done better overseas then they did in this country. But if they dont get the mares &/or the people to produce them, then you can hardly put all the blame at the door of the stallion.
 
Again, so great that he is generating debate and I for one am really looking forward to seeing the first crop of foals this year, and of course the true test of a stallion is the offspring. (2010 was only his first year at stud).
It is a good thing that people have different opinions and look for different things in stallions otherwise only one would get a look in, but just for the record (and a bit of adverting:)!!) here's the opinion from the SSH grader (the grader was a Dutch event rider!).
"A well kept horse, with good conformation, a good walk and canter. An easy and adjusting jumper". and from the vet "12 y.o event horse with good x-rays!! Short coupled great type for all round competition horse, good active paces. I like this!" He was one of only 3 stallions who made the cut that day (Amoureax by the way didn't, so they weren't all rubbish... as I think he is a lovely dreassage type!)
Surely the fact he has been licenced by 2 World Breeding Federation Sports Horse bodies and has never been rejected by one means he's definately breeding material... but probably not for a Grand Prix dressage horse. (try Franklyn Sugar for that! Now there's a trot!!). I'm also going to cross him to a little pony to breed my little girl her FEI junior mount!

However...here's a thought! Bring him a mare with a flash trot and let him do the rest! Meantime I'm off to get some dressage lessons :eek:

Lots more views welcome!!
 
I have known King Cotton Gold now for nearly 3 years and in that time his stable manners and behaviour have always been impeccable, and he has never been lame. I also think that he is the most stunning horse I have ever been lucky enough to clap eyes on in the flesh! I think that these things coupled with the fact his is out and about regularly competing make him a super stallion prospect for someone to breed their 'horse of a lifetime'. As sonya says, you may not get a world class superstar but what you are likely to get (depending on your mare!) is a trainable, sound horse with a good heart. Surely these attributes would be a good start?

Best of luck with him Sonya and I look forward to seeing some KCG foals on the ground this year!
 
I was really not meaning to be unfair. I was being very candid (as in I meant it!!!), when saying I hoped his progeny's result would make me eat my words.

KCG was not on my radar before last week-end and he didn't impress me - not because of lack of flashy paces (none of the eventers had flashy paces) and not because of lack of a professional rider.

As a general rule, I don't go for flashy horses & I don't like picking stallions that have been over-produced. I think it is very dificult to see a horse's "natural" way of going when he has been highly produced - and all it shows is that either the horse is highly trainable or that his rider is highly talented! I pick young stallions and look at what they look like when they are effectively "stripped to the bone" and all you can see is the horse and its movement.

By way of example, I would probably not chose to use Totilas (even if I could afford him and wanted to breed a top class dressage horse), because I have a suspicion he is very much "made", not "born", and at the moment, there is no guarantee he would pass that on to his offspring (because there isn't any!). On the other hand, I have picked completely unproven 3 year old colts, just on the basis of their "natural" way of going / jump / etc...

Two of the horses I liked best last week-end were not at all flashy. Uptons Deli Circus & Challon Z . Uptons Deli Circus looks like a big pony, but he can move, has progeny at 3 * (I think, someone correct me if I'm wrong), could be handled by a 10 year old from what I saw of him & would breed a great amateur competition or pleasure horse, depending on the mare. Challon Z looks like someone's old RC gelding in the stable (and behaves like it), but boy he can move and jump and has a beautiful attitude to work. He is also not ridden by a professional - in fact his owner rode him well into her pregnancy.

The point I am trying to make is there are so many stallions with great temperament and attitude to work, who could throw foals that could equally go for the amateur, professional or pleasure market, without being too sharp or difficult to ride - look at Jumbo! We have 2 on the yard, one just hacks out with his middle-aged owner, the other hunts all winter, and Jumbo is still very high up on the list of best sire of top class eventers... There is no reason for anyone to compromise movement/style/performance for temperament.

So, going back to my original point, I do wish Sonyac814 all the success & enjoyment in the world with her lovely horse.

I have one question though. He is 12 and this is only his 2nd season at stud. Any particular reason?
 
I've seen King Cotton Gold a number of times now, both in competition and at the Addington Stallion parade. I have to say, each time I've been massively impressed... I saw part of his video from Blaire and his attitude and scope Cross Country was quite superb, (he didn't fall there but slipped up on the flat... along with quite a few others). I found out a bit about his history too. Apparently he successfully Show Jumped up to 1.40m as a 6/7yr old in Ireland as well.

I think what I liked most about this stallion was his intelligence, he seemed quick with his feet, really eager to please and looks very straight forward to ride. Movement wise I thought he was fair to good, but I think if he'd been in the hands of a professional from day one he's capable of a lot more expression. As an Event sire I can't think of a much better choice to put on a TB mare, he'd give bone, jump, movement and trainability. He looked so good Cross Country I'd like to watch some more, if anyone know's how I can get hold of some footage please let me know.
Thanks,

Sam
 
Sonyac814 said:
I am so excited to see this discussion!! First I must declare my bias...I'm King Cotton Gold's owner and afraid also his rider, so first for the good news...I am not hereditary! I'm afraid I have to confess to just being an enthusiatic amatuer who has stumbled across this fabulous stallion and won't let go! (look at my eventing record...I'm rubbish!) I do realise my riding has a lot to be desired and I look a bit shoddy in the arena straight after Pippa Funnel, and I may reconsider attemping dressage in my XC saddle again, however this is the whole point of King Cotton Gold!
Last summer, Oliver Townend asked for the ride on him and after much deliberation, for the time being, I said no. Possibly a mistake, but the point I am trying to make is that King Cotton Gold represents everything I think we are losing with modern sports horse breeding. I appreciate these modern wonder stallions, I really do, and I recognise that if you want to win an olympic gold in dressage of SJ, you probably need one, but the availability of AI to all and sundry means our livery yards are flooded with "sons of Arco" types that most normal riders like me just can't ride. They are blooming hard to sit on and pretty firey and spooky...you have all seen them and probably ridden them.
King Cotton Gold harks back to the days of sound, safe sensible horses where even an enthusiastic amatuer can "have a go", maybe even get to Babminton one day, I won't win, but wow, wouldn't it be great!....and that's the point I am trying to make. He's taken me from PN to having a bash as 2* in two seasons, and yes, I'm afraid the falls were my fault...he is really clever actually... but the point is he jumped beautiful clears without the slightest hesitation next time out.
Re paces, it's true his trot is not flashy warmblood, but look at all the top eventers, they don't move like warmbloods because that sort of movement can lead to lameness when you put the kind of miles on that you need for an eventer. King Cotton Gold still has Grade 1 x-rays aged 12! And don't forget the paces you can't train so easily; the walk and canter are to die for and his jump is phenomenal, but I'm afraid I was too scared to jump higher than 1.20 at Addington! (see his scores from IHB and from the SSH grading...one of the hardest societies in UK to get licenced by). Its difficult not to see past those floaty, expressive prancing continental stallions, but whatever you choose to breed from, think long and hard about what you want. Is it an olympic champion, or do you want a little piece of magic and a lifelong friend who might just have the courage and heart to let you rub shoulders with the big boys one day....even if you are as rubbish as me!!
Wish us luck!!
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Well said. Good luck this season. :)
 
Well said, a tribute to both you and KCG. Good old fashioned honesty! Both in your post and the article which you wrote, which I mentioned in my earlier post. For those of us for whom are horses are more than a commercial enterprise, we need sane, kind, trainable horses that will keep us safe and be great to have as companions.
 
Thanks all for your kind support and Sam, of course what am I thinking!! I have got footage! So everyone can judge for themselves what he's like when I'm a little less terrified!

I've got some great footage of him going cross country from Playback sports which will be appearing on the Horse and Country stud break after Monday. I'm going to download this onto his lovely new website ([URL removed in line with Breeding board guidelines]) as soon as I can, and I've also got some really terrible quality footage of a dressage lesson I had. Apologies in advance for quality, and I'm afraid the long clip (and you do have to watch all as I only get the hang of it nearer the end) is still me....the rubbish rider. However, there is also a teeny wee clip of him with a Grand Prix rider on him! I'm afraid its only one circle in walk and a half circle in trot, and its only the first few seconds she sat on him, but look at that walk!! She also had the trot great by the end. No canter I'm afraid and that's his best pace, but will soon sort that out!

links as follows
(me riding but not so paralysed with fear) [URL removed in line with Breeding board guidelines]

good rider (within seconds of sitting on him) [URL removed in line with Breeding board guidelines]

So that's what I'll do! I'll get a decent video of him with a decent rider and stick that on his website. Then we can discuss again...but I'll still love him no matter what!

Let me know what you think though, GP rider said he had fabulous hocks!
 
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You can definitely see the difference in him.....including with you as no nerves in the lesson compared to at a stallion show as you can see how much more relaxed he is with the longer, lower and relaxed outline and much more suspension in the trot....almost a different horse and truly showing his talent.
 
Well I have just had a told you so & if nothing else he is getting plenty of publicity. I am now looking forward to seeing photos of his offspring & arranging for the mare to be AI'd. I just hope now the Fate's Olympic Gold actually gets conceived & born safely!
 
Hey! Guess what!!
I've just found this little clip of his only offspring at his first XC before his tragic accident!

This is the little fellow that started all of this! I got him from the elderly lady who originally bred KCG. As you know KCG only stood at stud for the first time last year, so no other babies, but as a colt he got into the field with this lady's looney 13hh Arab show pony (I blame the mare myself!) and this was the result.

He was a phenomenal little fellow and after the accident I asked his breeder if she had anymore.
That's when she told me his father was still in Ireland. He had been with Maxie Sculley (the world bareback high jump record holder...ouch!) and had been showjumped by one of Irelands leading young showjumpers, so Sam... think you are correct...but the guy was killed in a car crash. Maxie had been too upset to let the horse go and hence the career break while he carried one of the Irish masters out hunting. (and no dressage schooling!)

Maxie himself had just died, so the lady (who still owned him) sold him to me.

Anyway, probably hard to tell much given the dodgy camera work and the "unlikely" cross, but no doubt the little fellow had real class and an amazing attitude. This is him coming home from his very first XC. Touch of the old Hedingley Brittania don't you think?

[URL removed in line with Breeding board guidelines]

Right I've bigged my lad up enough now...his new babies will have to do the rest of the talking!
 
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Thank goodness sense has prevailed!!

King Cotton Gold is a lovely example of an event type as confirmed by the Irish Horse Board who are in my opinion THE authority on what an event horse should be like given all the IHB world beaters, including all King Cotton Gold's relatives!
I didn't see KCG at Addington, but unless he was on 3 legs, you couldn't fail to see this horse's class, especially over a fence. A saw him at Osberton last year where he put in a flawless XC round in deep mud and would have ended well up the order had he not been withdrawn, quite rightly, in what was probably the worse conditions for showjumping I have ever seen! (Only about 8 horses jumped round out of about 200 starters). You point out Ginnie, none of the eventers "move well". I disagree. They move differently. They need to. An event horse can't waste time and energy up in the air. They need to jump, land, turn and gallop and stay sound in the most terrible of conditions. These continentals can't hold a candle to our British and Irish eventers which is why its the only discipline the Brits still excel in. (imagine jumping a four star drop on one of these huge jumping continentals....hello ground!!)
Please, please breed more! I for one will have your King Cotton Gold baby Magic if you ever want to sell!
 
maggiemoto said:
For those of us for whom are horses are more than a commercial enterprise, we need sane, kind, trainable horses that will keep us safe and be great to have as companions.
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I am not certain whether the above comment was aimed at me, but if was, may I say that if you knew me and read that, you would probably be ROFL right now...

I did also try and explain that there were lots of sane, kind, trainable stallions at Addington, who I liked very much...

Chestnutnut said:
You point out Ginnie, none of the eventers "move well". I disagree. They move differently. They need to. An event horse can't waste time and energy up in the air. They need to jump, land, turn and gallop and stay sound in the most terrible of conditions.
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Thank you for that, I know nothing about movement, conformation and breeding for purpose... :rolleyes:

I like to see people joining a public forum that is after all a place to express personal opinions, only to patronise other users and demolish their... hum... personal opinions.

I have said several times that I wish Sonya all the luck for her & KCG's eventing carreers, and meant it. I also hope Magic104's foal will be the foal to make me eat my words!

But I reserve the right to have not liked him very much on the day and not ever see a point when I would like to use him.

That is my view, but wouldn't the world be a sad place if everyone liked the same things!
 
I have said several times that I wish Sonya all the luck for her & KCG's eventing carreers said:
Eat your words I doubt that, & I have to symphathise with you as last year I made comments on stallion & got grief for it as well. We cant always like the same type of animal & as someone said its just as well. I also hope KCG does well in the future along with his offspring & least he has passed 2 panels of judges.
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I have been watching this post with a grea deal of interest, KCG is a good example of what we should be looking to breed in this country Quality sound rideable horses and I for one am looking forward to seeing his first foals.
I think that we in this country are taken in to much by fashion or the next quick sell! how nice it was to read so many people give this horse a chance go Sonia and KCG will be rooting for you god luck
 
GinnieRedwings said:
I am not certain whether the above comment was aimed at me, but if was, may I say that if you knew me and read that, you would probably be ROFL right now...

I did also try and explain that there were lots of sane, kind, trainable stallions at Addington, who I liked very much...



Thank you for that, I know nothing about movement, conformation and breeding for purpose... :rolleyes:

I like to see people joining a public forum that is after all a place to express personal opinions, only to patronise other users and demolish their... hum... personal opinions.

I have said several times that I wish Sonya all the luck for her & KCG's eventing carreers, and meant it. I also hope Magic104's foal will be the foal to make me eat my words!

But I reserve the right to have not liked him very much on the day and not ever see a point when I would like to use him.

That is my view, but wouldn't the world be a sad place if everyone liked the same things!
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Hi, No my comment re commercial enterprises was not aimed at you at all! The point I was making was that for some of us, if not the majority of horses owners, we want a horse that is sane, etc. just as KCG's owner says. Our horses compete regularly but they also go out on wonderful trekking hacks seeing trains, helicopters, lorries, tractors, pheasant shoots, etc and don't bat an eye, and as we are not big folks, we need horses that are kind and biddable around the stable and fun to be with, that was all. From what we have heard and seen, this is not always the case in some commercial yards, the horse has a job to do and as long as he does it, whether that comes with baggage,that is all that matters.
 
I too have stumbled across this interesting post. I am one who really appreciates this stallion, I was impressed by his adorable personality and impeccable manners the first time I saw him in the stable. I then went and watched him compete and was equally impressed. His scope and intelligence is clear to see when watching him cross country and yet he behaves impeccably outside the ring whilst warming up and standing around waiting. He is a horse that I would love to ride and could imagine having hours of fun with, and for me that is more than enough in itself.

I therefore have a mare in foal to him due at the end of April. I cant wait to see my foal and if I have half of the fun with it that Sonya has with King Cotton Gold then I will be delighted. Afterall, that is why we do it is it not.:)
 
Hi Morag!!

Great to see you on here and so looking forward to seeing your foal. Got website set up for pics so hope we can put your baby on the web.
Said I wouldn't big him up again, but do need to report the following.....its only fair on him!
Had some lessons with Karon Carson who has helped me fix some of the timid riding issues and competed him pure dressage yesterday.
King Cotton Gold won the class with over 71% with an 8 for paces in the collectives and I got 2 bookings from dressage people. So very pleased he is now a dressage stallion too:):).....and actually also quite grateful for the constructive criticism that has now let me show him off to his full potential.
I'll put the test on his site when ready at kingcottongold . com
 
Can we also see some of his foals on here please? I have been waiting for the madam to come in season so I can arrange the AI but she seems to have other ideas! Typical, there were no problems last year, scans were fine, she was regular as clockwork, bloody horses!!
 
Magic! I'm a great believer in sticking with my original ideas simply because if I change them, things are bound (and usually do) go wrong but if I stick with them, things go well if that makes sense. Happened to me time and time again so stick with your instincts and I hope you have a cracker.
Think you might have to have a number behind Olympic Gold though, it's bound to be very popular, lol!
 
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