Kissing Spine and Arthritis

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Today my 13 year old ISH gelding has been confirmed with the above, he had a bone scan, x-rays and nerve blocks due to slight lameness on the right hind...

He had not been showing any signs that would have suggested to me he had kissing spine, he has been jumping 3.3 courses and doing very well in ridden classes, he's always seemed sometimes slightly stiff from behind and I have always had a niggling feeling that he may be showing some arthritis in his hind legs...

The problem came to light whilst doing our walk & trot test, he had a bit of a to do on the box whilst travelling to the show with another horse (kicking out) and just didn't seem great in warm up, the whole test was just wrong, he felt tense, wasn't listening to my aids and just generally didn't feel comfortable, the judge called me over after watching and suggested he may have done something to his pelvis....ever since that day I have felt he wasn't quite right and pushed to get him further checked out as my local vet did all flexion tests and lunging session...

So hence he has come back with the diagnosis after spending 4 days at the local equine hospital....

I need help on getting my head round it all, firstly he is showing KS on vertebra's 15,16,17, arthritis in his right hock, right fore, and base of neck.... the vet has recommended tildren injections into his hocks with the possiblilty he will only ever possibly need 3 over a course of 12mths, cortisone injection in his back and the rest of his days on 2 doses of bute due to the fact that although he has all these issues they are only mild and she feels the KS is actually not causing him that much problem. She says she is trying to look at the bigger picture of the whole of the horse and that he has a lot of LITTLE things going on and surgery is not needed due to the mildness and the arthritis..

I have asked the question of bute messing with the horses liver (as I have heard of this) and she assures me on such a small dosage this would not be the case, she has also given me a run down of the cost and to be honest although I'm not exactly awash with cash I would put his needs before anything else...

Am I though just masking the problem with all these injections and bute, she has told me I should be able to continue the work I have been doing, regular hacks and low level jumping on straight, and my ridden classes but no dressage however this just doesn't seem to be sitting comfortable with me..

Should I be jumping for joy that this isn't major surgery needed and at least I still have my beautiful boy or should I be looking at what appears they are doing the right thing for him but really it isn't..

Appreciate thoughts on this and if anyone else has experianced the two things hand in hand, I know there are a lot of forums on KS but not much on the two together and the prognosis of it all...

I'm fully aware KS does not get better unless treated with surgery but she thinks he has prob had this for a long time and learnt to cope with it as he is not shown any signs of cold backing, refusal at jumps, rearing, bucking and may actually not need any surgery ever...
 
I have not had experience of horses with a kissing spine but i have loads of experience with arthritis or DJD. I have had two heavy cobs who both suffered from arthritis conditions some went well others did not as it very much depends on where it is and the severity. Currently i have a 18 year old who has had his sstiffle injected due to arthritis and it works fine for about 9 months to a year and then you get it done again some times it requires to injections sometimes just one. The injections are expensive around 150 to 200 pounds but can be worth it. Being on Bute is not the end of the world some horses i know have been on it for almost all their working life they are like people it just depends if they react to it Danilon is reckoned to be kinder on the liver and kidneys so that is an option. Some people swear by herbal remedies personally i dont rate any of them but i would never say they dont work because there are loads of people out there who will tell you they do. What i am trying to say in a long winded way is that i have no hang ups regarding the long term use of drugs to keep a horse sound and have not seen any that were adversely effected by them but no doubt there are some who cant take them. When younger one of my cuddies had to destroyed due to severe arthritis in the hocks if what you are telling me is correct your horse should have a happy and productive life on painkillers and you cant ask for anymore than that.
 
sally2 said:
if what you are telling me is correct your horse should have a happy and productive life on painkillers and you cant ask for anymore than that.
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I have to agree with this sentence from the previous poster. Your horse would not benefit from having a KS op as the success rate of this kind of operation is only good if there are no other underlying problems.

You may well just have to accept that your horse has limited abilities now but can be kept usefull and happy on x painkillers a day.

Sometimes as horse owners we expect our horses to be perfect and when they are not, we worry about giving them drugs to make them confortable. If I were a horse I would have been put down a long time ago lol but I know my limitations and this is what we must accept. If on the other hand you want to still compete at the same level etc or do more then you must think about what you want to do with your horse.
 
This post is very interesting for me.
My 6yr TB mare has had problems with working correctly and could never hold an outline, she used to throw her head up. Also she is very stiff behind which used to show when she had more than a week off work.
Had the vet out and we did the usual flexion tests which she did appear stiff but was proven to be sound. We did find her to be very tense in her back and moving away from pressure applied around where the back of the saddle fitted.
She had 6 weeks off 1 week with bute but still no improvement. Was referred to the physio who said it was complex - she is slightly roach backed and physio sure KS was present in T16 - T18 - although like your horse didn't really show KS symptoms and was prob not the cause but something to keep an eye on.
Physio thinks the stiffness behind and also carrys her tail to the right- poss cause of back issues - so thinks she probably has alot going on in her hock area. Physio Massaged her back - lots of the muscle was in spasm, a bit better afterward.
Have been given 4 weeks of long reining over poles to do everyday for 10 mins to get her to use her backend and open out her back.
Too early to say yet but if there is no improvement in 4 weeks then we have to investigate poss lower leg lameness which i am suspecting arthritis.
So yes, similar experience to your horse OP poss arthritus in hocks and KS.
Would be interested to hear updates on your horse.
 
Thank you.... I'm still trying to come to terms with it all... Collected him today after he had his treatment of tildren and injection in his back..4 days box rest and he can then be turned out and will be accessed in 4 weeks. It was lovely to see him and he was in a good mood and just generally seemed great.

I can't help but feeling a little bit down beat about it all as the more I read the more depressing the whole picture looks.. I kind of felt today coming from the hospital fobbed of as because the treating vet said one thing to me and I get there to pick him up and it's completely different. She was going to show me x-rays, said he could be turned out, said I could start riding in 2 weeks and it all changed on collection.. Was very distressing.

I put he was to be on bute however there was none for me and told it would be down to my one vet to decide as and when he needs go on it, my own vet x-rayed his hock and didn't even pick up he was lame, how he is going to judge when he needs it, my faith had completely gone and I just feel because of us going through our insurance we are a way of making some money, I'm sorry but that's just the way I feel right now :'(
 
Hi I only wanted to post as having been through a very long journey with KS I can completely understand you emotions and I know how awful you must be feeling.

I made myself have a mindset that after the diagnosis and having gone through surgery that even if I could never sit on him again, it would be wonderful to enjoy his company as a pain free horse. Luckily for me the surgery worked although he is still a difficult chap!

I think the other posts are right, I would be unlikely to put him through KS surgery as the arthritus will carry on despite you fixing the back, but I think there are lots of other factors to consider. My horse has been not quite right for a couple of months now, he has been stiff and ucomfortable and I have read so much that I have convinced myself he has about 20 serious issues, but actually the hard ground has been really tough for him (and also for many many other horses - at least 3 or 4 others on my yard are saying they feel the same way) and he has been a lot better since we has a little rain! I believe KS can predispose a horse to the other issues like yours has, because the carry themselves incorrectly to compensate and it puts pressure incorrectly on the joints. However his is mild and he is still young and the best thing for him is to keep him moving.

I would personally do lots of long and low long reining to strengthen his back which will help him, it will also keep him mobile and flexible and help his joints work without the pressure of a rider, you dont have to do small circles, I taught Ryan to do pre-lim dressage tests on the long reins, I was surprised howe much I enjoyed it! Clarify the dressage bit as I would have thought jumping was worse than dressage up to novice level as long as you are doing very classic dressage rather than gadgets to get an outline and not pulling him around. You can also look at some of the herbs, I do think some help Ryan, but I have just been investigating something called Boswellia which is supposed to be more effective than Devils claw and has natural anti inflammatory and painkilling properties, I can give you a couple of good well priced websites to investigate as they also sell good quality MSM and Glucosamine which help joints. The herbs can be used with or without bute so may be worth a try.

Feel free to pm me if you want more info, I have similar concerns about my horse as he gets older and am determined to give him as much support to stay fit as I can, he is just about to turn 12 and I believe he still has a very full and long life in front of him, your horse wil tell you what he can manage, he is lucky to have an owner that is listening.

Best of luck to you, I am sure you will get through this.
 
HI KAREN

its heartbreaking to know our horses have these problems but all is not lost

IMO the vets can't think the KS is that bad as mine was on 8 weeks box rest with inhand walking twice a day before going back for assesment

in this 8 weeks we built up from 5 mins to 20 mins walking with physio and 2 weeks ultrasound daily on right hind suspensory (was advised shockwave but opted for ultrasound -- physio lady very kindly lent me the machine and showed me what to do) when she went back they were very pleased with her progress and scanned her suspensory which showed 80% improvement ,her back was more supple but not quite 100% yet her sacrialiac left side was much better also

as for her hocks the vet told me at the beginning they would have expected to see bony changes in a 10 year old and were not to worried about this
we had them injected 4 weeks into her boxrest

(i have had her in magnetic boots and back magnets everyday--not everyones belief but it works for me)

please don't give up yet its early days

we are on 4 more weeks box rest but can upload her work in week 3 with the pessoa 3 times a week and ride in walk only for 20 mins 4 times a week twice a day
she can have a little turnout in a 20m x 20m paddock on week 5 for 1 hour start and build up from there --

then on week 6 she is to be seen again and this is D day as to wether she needs the KS surgery but i'm hopeful we may not have to go down this route as of the progress she as made so far

as for the hocks how bad were the changes

i have a 15yr old cob who was diagnosed with spavin 5 years ago not on bute at all had injections (last for her around 12-18 months and joint supplement daily and rode daily for an hour or two --fair enough not at a level she used to be 5 years ago but still very keen and mobile to do novice dressage and showing she even still pops round a workers course every now and again

i can't remember if i gave you the web address of someone who as wrote a blog on their own experience with KS but here it is again its very very good and helpful
http://kissingspines.blogspot.com/
 
I know you feel down at the moment but give it a few weeks and you will feel better as you begin to come to terms with it all. From what i have read the horse still has a positive future, dont be influenced by the vets they have to remain objective when dealing with any animal simply because the dont have all the answers nature sometimes deals with things better than modern science. Look on this as a learning process you and the horse are going to have to find out what is possible to do and how you are going to do it both you and the horse will have to learn a whole lot of new skills. Unless it completely hopeless all horses have purpose and ability the trick is in finding the purpose and bringing out the ability but like i said i think your horse has a good future you have to remain positive though.
 
Thank you All, although I am still very up and down I am feeling much more positive and am hopeful that he will become comfortable and pain free, I have an in depth convo with vet today and now have a programme that needs to be following, Sat I just felt like I collected him with no sense of direction or what was happening next.

Thank you though for your support and kind words xxx
 
Well I'm 2 weeks in to coming to terms with what is going on, I have put him on cortaflex, and would be interested in Boswella. I had a meeting with my local vet to go through x-rays last week and it was very difficult to see the changes in his hock but once pointed out it does look very mild. I was allowed to start light hacking him as of yesterday and he was so pleased to be out although when I put saddle on his back his head shot up and again when the girth was tighted. I had a more lighter rider on him at first as I'm just paranoid although I am only 10st I just didn't have the nerve to ride him without in the back of my mind I was hurting him (this is going to be a tough one to get over). We only walked and although he still looked stiff it looked to me he was lifting his hock up more than before. He is still dragging his feet downhill though (which from behind looks awful with the way he drops both sides). I have physio scheduled in 2 weeks for pessoa work and my vet is out around that period to see how he is getting on with a tildren injection to follow in a further 4 weeks.

I can't help but feel I am fighting something I have no control over and having read extensive forums ref bone spavin/ DJD for starters it doesn't appear Tildren actually works, and the outlook looks bleak given his other problems. I actually feeling right now that is it going to be worth it.

After nearly a month off he has put on loads of weight, looks depressed in the field as he lones from the herd and was very happy out yesterday, I'm just thinking what quality of life does this lovely boy have haven given his all and been so geniune in everything he does.

Karen x
 
This is all very stressful and upsetting for you I know. when my horse of a lifetime was diagnosed with KS and suspensory damage at 5 I shed so many tears and have continued to do so to this day through the ups and downs of recovery from surgery, rehab difficulties, snow, a bucking bronco, shockwave etc etc. He has had every supplement from green lipped mussels, to bromelaide, to MSM, magnetic boots, you name it! I have given him the best possible chance I could do and am now enjoying riding him again. It will be a long time before I know whether my dreams for him will ever be realised and the heartache and worry has been awful but it will get better and you will know what is right, trust yourself. x
 
My boy had KS that needed operating on, but the vets also found arthritis in his hind legs, with the pessoa he couldn't bring his legs right underneath him, so used 'hill therapy' instead, its a parrelli technique that does the same as the pessoa but doesn't tie them down, so he found it easier to move forward, it might be worth you trying it, google it for more details, the parrelli site gives you a programme to try, which my vet was very complimentry to

I wish you good luck though
 
I really feel for you, don't be disheartened. My horse was diagnosed with a whole host of issues including, bone spavin in both hocks, arthritis of the right stifle and higher suspensory desmitis to the right hind for which he was treated with steroid injections. This made no improvement at all and after £1000.00 and a still broken horse I finally managed to persuade my vet to refer us. Turned out that there was no arthritis in the stifle and the hocks had minimal changes but he did have severe KS involving T11 through to L2, with 3 DSP's almost fused. I was given the choice of PTS or surgery which I opted for. He had 5 DSP's removed in March this year. the whole process has been like riding an emotional roller coaster. If I were you I would ask for your xrays to be sent to Sven at Willesley for a second opinion. He is the leading vet on KS in this country and if his opinion is the same as your vets then you are safe in the knowledge that you have been given the right advice. Not all horses with KS require surgery and the decision to opt for the procedure shouldn't be taken lightly as the rehab is hard work, frustrating and at times feels hopeless but if given the choice again I would go down the surgery route. An awful lot of horses with KS have other issues which are brought about by the way they hold themselves to compensate for the constant low grade pain they are in and in my opinion if the route cause is KS the other problems cannot be improved without the KS being treated either through injections or surgery. My only concern with the injections is that somewhere down the line, it may become necessary for the surgery anyway, depending on the reason for the KS in the first place. Spirits was due to arthritis but the remodeling was complete. I was given the OK last night to get back on board and I'm still smiling! We still have a long way to go though as he has to learn a completely new way to use himself. Pm me if you would like a chat and good luck. PS, it's my blog that was mentioned earlier in the thread, it's basically a diary of Spirits rehab.
 
Hi I know exactly how you feel.

After 9 months of rehabing my daughters pony for possible sacroiliac strain we are no further forward and have spent a fortune on rehab.

We have now at my request been referred to Sven Kold at Willesley, I am keeping all my fingers and toes crossed that it is not KS as I was horrified when I heard that he would need to be box rested for 12 weeks and we would have to start the rehab all over again as he would lose most of the muscle tone we have tried to build up.

At the moment whilst there is no definite diagnosis I still have hope but I am dreading having to decide what to do if they find something serious.
 
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