Kissing spine diagnosis in 5yo, dangerous behaviour

[holly.91]

My 5 year old thoroughbred has been diagnosed with kissing spines, 4 parts of spine touching just under saddle. We are told she needs surgery. She has had ovary scan, lameness work up, back X-ray, teeth and saddle checked. Aside from sudden bad behaviour under saddle (which initially made me suspect), she is dangerous to handle go on the ground such as bringing in from the field etc (rearing, striking) so dangerous that we are wondering if we had the surgery and rehab she would come back with the same attitude? Does anyone have experience of this? We are considering PTS at this point which would break my heart and would be a last resort. She is also prone to colic so sending her off / box rest would likely set this off.

 

[ycbm]

I have had one operated on and known others and I would never have another one done. In your shoes, I could not fault you for having your mare PTS. I certainly wouldn't attempt to rehab her in any way without x rays of C6/7 of her neck to ensure that she doesn't have the common congenital deformation that prevents TB horses from stabilising their front legs.

Sorry you are in this situation, it's a tough road whichever way you choose to go. .

 

[Winters100]

My 5 year old thoroughbred has been diagnosed with kissing spines, 4 parts of spine touching just under saddle. We are told she needs surgery. She has had ovary scan, lameness work up, back X-ray, teeth and saddle checked. Aside from sudden bad behaviour under saddle (which initially made me suspect), she is dangerous to handle go on the ground such as bringing in from the field etc (rearing, striking) so dangerous that we are wondering if we had the surgery and rehab she would come back with the same attitude? Does anyone have experience of this? We are considering PTS at this point which would break my heart and would be a last resort. She is also prone to colic so sending her off / box rest would likely set this off.

Poor you. A very tough situation. I would have a serious chat with the vet about prognosis. Sorry that I cannot say something more helpful, but I am really sorry that you are in this position.

 

[AmyMay]

It’s an awful situation for you to be in . And you have my sympathy.

It’s not a surgery I would ever consider having done.

 

[TheBayThoroughbred]

I have had a horse receive kissing spine surgery, initially my own vet was hesitant, but the surgery is actually very straightforward and has a quick recovery time. However, my boy didn't have any serious behavioural issues, just signs of discomfort. Initially he was still a little grumpy about the saddle going back on, but in a few weeks he seemed to realise that there was no pain, and he's become a lot better, which is very common.

It's hard to know if the ground behaviour is related, maybe give her a few months off of work and see how she is before you go through with the surgery. I am so sorry that you are in such a situation, if you decide to PTS that is a completely understandable and reasonable option, because it is a lot of stress and heartache either way.

 

[blood_magik]

I had one. He was unpredictable and I was lucky that he didn’t seriously hurt me

We went through with the surgery and it was a long road to recovery - I essentially had to re-back him. It took a good 14/15 months before he felt like a ‘normal’ horse but he’s doing well and qualified for HOYs this year with his new owner so it was worth it in the end.

It’s not always the end of the road but it’s also not a quick fix. Sometimes deciding to pts is the right choice

 

[poiuytrewq]

Agree with YCBM
My beautiful lovely TB was diagnosed with mild KS. He also has arthritic changes at *I think (this was last year) C5/6 and that we believe is causing a spinal impingement.
There has been no definitive diagnosis dispite a huge amount of diagnostics.
I’m glad I didn’t go through with operating and perused the neck possibility first.

 

[Goldenstar]

I have had two horses operated on for KS one was 13 and a horse with a great competition record his changes where severe and the operation was great sucess and he was fantastic to ride afterwards sadly he had tumours on his bowel ( which of course we did not know ) and went on to colic frequently eventually we PTs and at PM we found the tomours ,it’s thought the tumours caused discomfort then compensation in his stance lead to the KS .
I don’t know but I would not do the operation again on a horse with a history of colic.

The second is my current horse Sky he presented with a little patch heat in his back on his routine physio visit .
We sent him straight for X-ray and quite severe KS was found he was operated on in August is doing very well the thing with him he had no behaviour issues but he did not have a good walk he never did it’s been transformed by the procedure .
The vet is of opinion his KS was congenial he had extremely thick bony process which caused the issue .
Its not something that I am scared of doing but I would not do it to a young horse at the beginning of its training journey both of mine where experienced and good horses neither showed any antisocial behaviour under saddle ( well Sky does have a lot say for himself but that’s his character ) .

It’s a hard call and you have a lot to think about the aftercare is quite expensive and the rehab will diffcult in a horse without much understanding of the training.
Unless you are experienced I think this horse will need to rehabbed in a professional yard specialising in this type of work .

 

[holly.91]

I wasn’t sure if anyone would respond, thank you so much for taking the time to share your experiences, it has made this situation that little bit easier. She is my everything and i wouldn’t wish this on anyone.

 

[spacefaer]

I wouldn't go through with the operation and very lengthy rehab on a horse with management issues. There's a lot of groundwork to do (months) which is hard enough with an easy horse.

I have only had one horse diagnosed with KS. Fortunately (in a way) 'the decision was a very easy one as he had had an amazing career already and we found significant arthritis elsewhere. Having said that, I wouldn't have put him through the procedure as he was a claustrophobic cribber and wouldn't have coped with any form of box rest.

It's a decision only you can make, in conjunction with your vets and I don't envy you.

 

[Zoeypxo]

I have 2 friends who have had the surgery done.

horse 1 - ex racer. X rays showed KS in 3 places, horse also had a bone scan which showed no additional issues just the KS. Horse had bone shave surgery then went away to professional to be rehabbed. Came back 100% and has gone on to jump up to 1m20 with no further issues.

horse 2 - tb but not raced. Suddenly became dangerous under saddle , rearing explosive bucking etc. KS found on x ray, ulcers also found. Bone shave surgery completed and ulcers treated. Had on/off soundness problems since. Behaviour never quite returned to previous self but not rearing/bucking.

if you are insured or can afford a bone scan i do think its worth seeing if you have other issues contributing to the problems.
Good idea to x ray neck as others have said.

 

[Abacus]

It’s a different situation but my old boy was diagnosed with kissing spine at about 12 after a period off work for other issues. The (very pragmatic) vet said that it’s possible that the vertebrae only started touching due to a loss of musculature and bringing him back into correct work with a lot of hills etc might just fix it. She was right, he is 24 now and has been in constant work since. However it if emerges in a horse that is fit and in work (which sounds like the case) then it might be too severe for this management approach. You don’t say if you’re insured or the cost of surgery is an issue - I don’t think I’d pay for surgery, I might try it if insured. There are so many factors which include the likely future of the horse and (frankly) how much you love and want them to stay alive… and so on. It’s not easy but I’d say either decision is valid for you. So sorry. X

 

[Trouper]

Unpredictable/dangerous behaviour does not sound solely like KS issues in the saddle area to me. My last horse was clearly "not right" so we went through the whole battery of testing including bone scans. Vet was convinced that the KS was the cause of the unsoundness so we operated. He came through it well and we began the gentle re-hab but we only got to the leading from ridden stage when the really bad behaviour started. We never found the true cause of the problem and I decided to let a very unhappy horse go.

I would never operate for KS again without being certain that that was the true cause of the problem. There are other ways of helping a horse with a KS spine first and vets like Tom Beech (The Osteopathic Vet) can point you in the direction of folk like Dan Wain who do remarkable work with re-hab alone.

As @ycbm says - I, too, would suspect problems at C6/7 and would want x-rays done there.

I am so sorry you are in this position - my ex-racer was only 7 when we had to let him go. It is heartbreaking.

 

[holly.91]

To add, we did X-ray the neck on suggestion of the vet, as when she touched that area my mare seemed extremely sore. The X-ray didn’t show anything though. I agree about the behavioural comments various people have made. Thanks again and sorry to hear about your experiences. X

 

[ycbm]

To add, we did X-ray the neck on suggestion of the vet, as when she touched that area my mare seemed extremely sore. The X-ray didn’t show anything though. I agree about the behavioural comments various people have made. Thanks again and sorry to hear about your experiences. X

Good vet ?. If you are inclined to operate, then since the neck is clear I'd check the joints and suspensories in the back legs first. It's my impression these days that kissing spines are secondary to something else in cases where they weren't born with them. Mine was born with them, like GS's. We took away the pain, which like with GS' horse transformed his walk, but he was left with an explosive reaction to anything which upset him and I lost him to head trauma before I could find out whether that would eventually subside.

I don't envy you this decision.
.

 

[sbloom]

Physical rehab IS behavioural rehab on most cases as a sore horse is a vulnerable and defensive horse.

I'm not here to sway you, I'm no fan of surgery (I think ligament snip especially has concerning long term implications, horses need stability) and it sounds like progress may not be possible without it. However I would suggest looking at the work of (listen to podcasts with interviews of) Celeste Leilani Lazaris, possibly look up Simon Cocozza (though the former is my fave by far), the NoBackNoHorse FB group, and definitely rehab trainers like Dan Wain as mentioned, and Beaumoor Sentire, I know the work of both very well. I would not recommend water treadmills etc as they do NOT address movement patterns and can strengthen asymmetry in many horses.

KS seldom exists on its own as it's mostly the result of compensatory movement patterns, so other tissues have taken the strain too. Worrying about primary versus secondary isn't helpful as all these issues, KS, SI, suspensories, hocks etc are so often related to how the horse is moving. Fix the movement.

Also horses don't show a direct correlation between x-ray changes and actual pain symptoms so it's really hard to say what should be done from only seeing x-rays.

Read around about more biomechanical approaches to "fixing" this but in general, with severe behavioural/handling issues, deciding to rehab is a significant decision that I don't envy you.

 

[Equi]

Is the horse insured?

 

[holly.91]

She is insured, the work up has take a chunk of it but I don’t mind putting money towards it if it’s the right thing to do, she would be sent to a pro afterwards for rehab due to her behavioural issues (her full livery costs me about the same as that would cost me anyway!) The issue is that I am not convinced the KS is the sole reason she is acting dangerously, paired with her behaviour and colic history, I am hesitant to go through with it. She would cope with being retired and living out, that would be my ideal scenario, but if she’s in pain that is cruel so I can’t risk that.

I should add this mare is unraced, I have had her since a 3yo, she has been in work for 1 year and bought on very slowly. Mostly long forest hacks and little schooling, So hardly done anything really.

 

[Abacus]

Would be interested to know what others think of this - or maybe your vet. I find myself wondering if a bute trial might provide an answer on whether the behavioural issues go away under saddle if the pain is removed. If you could do this for a reasonable period (a few months rather than weeks) and show that the behaviour improves it might tell you that surgery would help her. Obvs none of us want to bute long term with a young horse but rather than surgery as a first resort it may give you more information.

 

[Equi]

It may not be the cause but you can’t train an animal in pain. I’m not one to shy away from pts a dangerous animal by any means, but when she has insurance and you can afford to go forward (even if you end up not keeping her) I think it can be worth it.

Of course it’s entirely your decision and you’ll know the horse better than anyone else, if you can’t see her changing behaviour by all means pts, but I personally would always wonder to what degree the pain was affecting the behaviour.

 

[ycbm]

Would be interested to know what others think of this - or maybe your vet. I find myself wondering if a bute trial might provide an answer on whether the behavioural issues go away under saddle if the pain is removed. If you could do this for a reasonable period (a few months rather than weeks) and show that the behaviour improves it might tell you that surgery would help her. Obvs none of us want to bute long term with a young horse but rather than surgery as a first resort it may give you more information.

The trouble is that bute often has no effect on back pain. Mine showed no difference on 4 bute a day. My vet told me that's pretty normal with backs.
.

 

[Abacus]

The trouble is that bute often has no effect on back pain. Mine showed no difference on 4 bute a day. My vet told me that's pretty normal with backs.
.

Interesting, wonder why that is. Thanks, I didn’t know this.

 

[ycbm]

Interesting, wonder why that is. Thanks, I didn’t know this.

I think possibly because it's much more nerve centred pain than the type of pain from joint problems. A bit like humans can't get effective pain relief for sciatica or trigeminal neuralgia.
.

 

[Zoeypxo]

Unpredictable/dangerous behaviour does not sound solely like KS issues in the saddle area to me. My last horse was clearly "not right" so we went through the whole battery of testing including bone scans. Vet was convinced that the KS was the cause of the unsoundness so we operated. He came through it well and we began the gentle re-hab but we only got to the leading from ridden stage when the really bad behaviour started. We never found the true cause of the problem and I decided to let a very unhappy horse go.

I would never operate for KS again without being certain that that was the true cause of the problem. There are other ways of helping a horse with a KS spine first and vets like Tom Beech (The Osteopathic Vet) can point you in the direction of folk like Dan Wain who do remarkable work with re-hab alone.

As @ycbm says - I, too, would suspect problems at C6/7 and would want x-rays done there.

I am so sorry you are in this position - my ex-racer was only 7 when we had to let him go. It is heartbreaking.

can recommend Tom Beech . He really helped with mine. My vets told me on x rays that the processes were close but not close enough to cause a problem. Went to Tom beech who found extreme back pain due to the close processes. She was explosive rearing due to the pain. 3 months groundwork and biomechanics and a few treatments from tom never had back pain or explosive behaviour since .
i should also add vets told me to give 6 bute a day and ride, she was still rearing constantly on 6 bute.
Tom is also realistic and will tell you if he thinks the horse cant be fixed!

 

[jhoward]

Interesting, wonder why that is. Thanks, I didn’t know this.

If its anything like humans
It will be due tonthings pressing on nerves that are the actual cause of pain.
So normal pain killers don't touch it.

Instead in a human they would try things like gabapectine (spelling) etc.

 

[DabDab]

Not related to kissing spine specifically but just to share some experience on the behavioural side:

One of my mares developed an illness as a youngster (3yo) that caused her to become extremely defensive, aggressive and difficult to handle. After the health issues were resolved (as far as we could tell), the behaviour issues were still there for quite a time afterwards and it really did take a complete emotional and physical rehab to bring her through it. The physical rehab was a really key part of getting her to trust her own body again and to trust a human asking something of her again. It was a pretty long road and there were definitely times when I thought we would end up having her PTS, and if I hadn't had my OH to help then I would have struggled a lot more (the likelihood of being bitten and kicked meant a lot of jobs were 2-person jobs). But she did come through it, and is completely honestly an utter joy to have around now. I also tried a lot of different techniques, many that I hadn't tried before, in the course if trying to help her, so I learnt a lot along the way too.

That's a very long way of saying that ime the behaviour and management issues are probably all part of the same problem, but that rehab of that side of the equation can be a hard road but probably is possible so long as the horse doesn't develop (or have underlying) more physical issues along the way.

 

[holly.91]

I will look in to Tom Beech, thanks. The surgery vets have suggested is the bone shave. I am going to have another conversation with her this week.

 

[Goldenstar]

bone shave on how many vertebrae?

 

[holly.91]

bone shave on how many vertebrae?

4 vertebrae

 

[Goldenstar]

Are they considering snipping some ligaments as well ?