Kissing spine - euthanasia

[Friesianfoal1999]

I write this with a very heavy heart and ask everyone to be kind in their words with advice. I am truly heartbroken.
My tb mare was diagnosed with kissing spine, the vet only managed to get half way down the back because x ray machine broke but so far behind the withers and start of the back have severe kissing spine. Two of the bones have fused and joined past eachother with 3 others having lesions in the middle of them.
I posted on a kissing spine group on Facebook and everyone seems to think I should get a second opinion. My vet is a back and lameness expert though. But I still will get one.

the vet has said she is too severe for surgery, if the back continues the way the first half of the x rays have gone. He said even if y’all e found someone willing to do the surgery she would ultimately fuse back again due to her confirmation. I’ll attach a few photos, her confirmation is very sway back. He said if you put a rider on her it’ll gradually fuse up.

he has given me the two options. Retirement vs euthanasia. I said as long as she’s pain free she can be retired forever, she is my world. But he said sadly with a back this had (crippled In His terms) Then she is going to be in a lot of pain.
she is currently on strong pain medications till the next x ray.

if anyone knows kissing spine, can they be pain free if not ridden? If she is in pain I want to do what’s right but I’m just absolutely Heartbroken

 

[Dyllymoo]

Oh I'm so sorry to read. I don't really know much about KS but as you have said it wont hurt to get a second opinion, and its not to say your vet isn't right, its just to make sure, and also I would want the back fully x-rayed before making a complete decision.

I think the first step is to get a second opinion. where are you based and maybe people can recommend somewhere?

 

[meleeka]

If you aren’t absolutely sure get a fresh set of xrays from another vet. You can then base your decision from a place of certainty. If original vet was right you won’t have lost anything.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I'm so sorry.

If you need a second opinion and full x-rays for your peace of mind, then get one.

I have found that Vets are actually a bit hesitant these days to suggest euthanasia, so when one does suggest it, I always take that suggestion seriously. I personally couldn't keep an animal in severe pain alive, they deserve better than that. So if it is confirmed that she would be in bad pain even if retired, I would PTS knowing that she would suffer no more.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I am so sorry about your mare and her diagnosis. Her conformation makes back problems extremely likely though, imo. For your own peace of mind, I would advise a 2nd opinion with complete x-rays. Then, if the x-rays confirm the diagnosis, you would need to make a decision about her quality of life with KS in retirement. If she still needs strong meds and she were mine, I would pts, I am afraid.

 

[ycbm]

I'm sorry you are in this horrible situation, but I'm afraid I would take your vet's advice. Horses are programed to avoid showing pain and even if another vet tells you that she is pain free you could never be sure. Normal painkillers are often not effective for backs, as well. Anyone with arthritis will tell you how much it hurts some days. Her level of muscle atrophy tells you how she is trying to avoid moving the vertebrae. The only way you can ensure that your mate is never in pain is to have her PTS. That is what I would do, for her sake.


ETA I know you don't have a full set of x rays, but what you describe in the first half is very extreme. I would not, myself, need to see any more because even if they were perfect it wouldn't change my mind, given her external appearance.


.

 

[Friesianfoal1999]

Oh I'm so sorry to read. I don't really know much about KS but as you have said it wont hurt to get a second opinion, and its not to say your vet isn't right, its just to make sure, and also I would want the back fully x-rayed before making a complete decision.

I think the first step is to get a second opinion. where are you based and maybe people can recommend somewhere?

hi thanks,
No decision will be made without the second lot of x rays. But he said he didn’t want to get my hopes up. X rays are really clear. Very bad, I am in Surrey but will travel up to 3 hours ish for the right vet.
Thank you x

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I'm sorry you are in this horrible situation, but I'm afraid I would take your vet's advice. Horses are programed to avoid showing pain and even if another vet tells you that she is pain free you could never be sure. Normal painkillers are often not effective for backs, as well. Anyone with arthritis will tell you how much it hurts some days. Her level of muscle atrophy tells you how she is trying to avoid moving the vertebrae. The only way you can ensure that your mate is never in pain is to have her PTS. That is what I would do, for her sake.


ETA I know you don't have a full set of x rays, but what you describe in the first half is very extreme. I would not, myself, need to see any more because even if they were perfect it wouldn't change my mind, given her external appearance.


.

The more I think about it, the more I think that you are correct. The OP says her Vet is a back and lameness expert, so their advice carries a lot of weight.

 

[Friesianfoal1999]

I'm sorry you are in this horrible situation, but I'm afraid I would take your vet's advice. Horses are programed to avoid showing pain and even if another vet tells you that she is pain free you could never be sure. Normal painkillers are often not effective for backs, as well. Anyone with arthritis will tell you how much it hurts some days. Her level of muscle atrophy tells you how she is trying to avoid moving the vertebrae. The only way you can ensure that your mate is never in pain is to have her PTS. That is what I would do, for her sake.


ETA I know you don't have a full set of x rays, but what you describe in the first half is very extreme. I would not, myself, need to see any more because even if they were perfect it wouldn't change my mind, given her external appearance.


.

Hi thanks for your response. I wish I didn’t agree with you but sadly I do. We are going to get the rest of the x rays regardless, she is insured so money is fine. I have to know for my peace of mind if that makes sense.
Her back is bad and it hasn’t got any worse in the three years I’ve owned her. She was literally born this way, vet thinks she’s had KS for a long time. She is only 9

 

[Friesianfoal1999]

The more I think about it, the more I think that you are correct. The OP says her Vet is a back and lameness expert, so their advice carries a lot of weight.

It’s horrible because she gallops around in her field still, trotting up and down and doesn’t seem to sore. But if you even go near her back you can tell she is sore, she tried to get you away without hurting you

 

[Friesianfoal1999]

Your opinion is correct, vet warned us but we didn’t think it would be so soon.
thank you for your opinion x

I am so sorry about your mare and her diagnosis. Her conformation makes back problems extremely likely though, imo. For your own peace of mind, I would advise a 2nd opinion with complete x-rays. Then, if the x-rays confirm the diagnosis, you would need to make a decision about her quality of life with KS in retirement. If she still needs strong meds and she were mine, I would pts, I am afraid.

 

[AmyMay]

If your vet is a back and lameness expert I’m not sure I see any point in a second opinion. The X-rays you do have show severe issues, physically her back is awful. She’s also on strong pain medication. That would be enough for me to have her put down.

 

[babymare]

I would get a second opinion for your peace of mind but I believe in your heart you know what that will be. If it confirms how bad it appears to be I would PST. I'm so so sorry you are in this situation but you are a good owner who will make the right decision for your mare. Big virtual hugs xx

 

[Meowy Catkin]

It's a heartbreaking situation. I'm so sorry that you are going through this.

ETA -

It’s horrible because she gallops around in her field still, trotting up and down and doesn’t seem to sore. But if you even go near her back you can tell she is sore, she tried to get you away without hurting you

This speaks volumes to me.

 

[Friesianfoal1999]

I'm so sorry.

If you need a second opinion and full x-rays for your peace of mind, then get one.

I have found that Vets are actually a bit hesitant these days to suggest euthanasia, so when one does suggest it, I always take that suggestion seriously. I personally couldn't keep an animal in severe pain alive, they deserve better than that. So if it is confirmed that she would be in bad pain even if retired, I would PTS knowing that she would suffer no more.

thank you, I trust my vet to be honest with me and he always has. However I posted on a kissing spine specific forum and people have said she’s treatable and should get a second opinion. I just couldn’t live with the guilt if there was a way to keep her pain free. I can’t keep her in pain for myself I just can’t x

 

[Friesianfoal1999]

It's a heartbreaking situation. I'm so sorry that you are going through this.

ETA -

This speaks volumes to me.

What do you mean? The fact she’s in pain. It speaks a lot to me as well

 

[Friesianfoal1999]

I would get a second opinion for your peace of mind but I believe in your heart you know what that will be. If it confirms how bad it appears to be I would PST. I'm so so sorry you are in this situation but you are a good owner who will make the right decision for your mare. Big virtual hugs xx

Thank you

 

[TheMule]

Do you have the x ray images you could post here?

 

[Friesianfoal1999]

The hardest part for me is the dilemma of whether she is in pain. She trots and gallops around her field playing with the others. But as I said previously she doesn’t want you near her back, she moved away, ears back, licks you and nibbles. She never wants to hurt you she just wants you away from her back. But how can a horse like this run around?

 

[Friesianfoal1999]

Do you have the x ray images you could post here?

I don’t but will have complete back x ray from Thursday

 

[Meowy Catkin]

What do you mean? The fact she’s in pain. It speaks a lot to me as well

Yes, the fact that she's clearly in pain and tries to get away. She sounds like such a sweetheart too.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

The muscle wastage is very obvious so she has been carrying herself very carefully for a long time. So sorry for both of you but don't think you will get a more optimistic diagnosis from a referral.

 

[Friesianfoal1999]

The muscle wastage is very obvious so she has been carrying herself very carefully for a long time. So sorry for both of you but don't think you will get a more optimistic diagnosis from a referral.

she has been this same shape since she was 3/4 years old

 

[TheMule]

I don’t but will have complete back x ray from Thursday

I'm struggling to understand how people on a Facebook group have made a decision that she can be treated without seeing the x-rays and yet a specialist vet who has has advised it's not possible?
I'm sorry for your mare, her back conformation sadly was always likely to lead to problems

 

[Friesianfoal1999]

I'm struggling to understand how people on a Facebook group have made a decision that she can be treated without seeing the x-rays and yet a specialist vet who has has advised it's not possible?
I'm sorry for your mare, her back conformation sadly was always likely to lead to problems

it’s really thrown me off and made me doubt that I’m doing everything I can for her.
thank you, I know her back was going to lead to problems we always knew that, half the reason we bought her was because we just fell in love. Took her rain or shine, we just hoped retirement would’ve been an option and not so soon

 

[SEL]

it’s really thrown me off and made me doubt that I’m doing everything I can for her.
thank you, I know her back was going to lead to problems we always knew that, half the reason we bought her was because we just fell in love. Took her rain or shine, we just hoped retirement would’ve been an option and not so soon

Its an awful position to be in. There are some people on FB who really resist euthanasia and think it is cruel. It isn't - absolutely heartbreaking for the owner, but horses don't have the same concept of death that we do and its unfair to make responsible owners feel bad.

Sadly some horses are born with issues and we can only do so much to keep them comfortable and then the best and bravest decision is to let them free from their pain. **hugs**

 

[Ownedby4horses]

I’m so sorry that you’re having to deal with this. In very difficult times like this it appears there will always be people who believe they know best and impart unhelpful advice to you.

saying that, obviously I’m going to add my advice, you sound like a lovely caring owner and as you have now said you are feeling doubt, it might be advisable to get a full set of x rays done, if only for peace of mind. You at least will then have the full picture so to speak to enable you to make the decision as to what is the right thing to do.

 

[chocolategirl]

I write this with a very heavy heart and ask everyone to be kind in their words with advice. I am truly heartbroken.
My tb mare was diagnosed with kissing spine, the vet only managed to get half way down the back because x ray machine broke but so far behind the withers and start of the back have severe kissing spine. Two of the bones have fused and joined past eachother with 3 others having lesions in the middle of them.
I posted on a kissing spine group on Facebook and everyone seems to think I should get a second opinion. My vet is a back and lameness expert though. But I still will get one.

the vet has said she is too severe for surgery, if the back continues the way the first half of the x rays have gone. He said even if y’all e found someone willing to do the surgery she would ultimately fuse back again due to her confirmation. I’ll attach a few photos, her confirmation is very sway back. He said if you put a rider on her it’ll gradually fuse up.

he has given me the two options. Retirement vs euthanasia. I said as long as she’s pain free she can be retired forever, she is my world. But he said sadly with a back this had (crippled In His terms) Then she is going to be in a lot of pain.
she is currently on strong pain medications till the next x ray.

if anyone knows kissing spine, can they be pain free if not ridden? If she is in pain I want to do what’s right but I’m just absolutely Heartbroken View attachment 47028View attachment 47027

From experience, I’ve never put a horse to sleep until I’ve explored all options. This way, I can let them go with a clear conscience. I understand due to finances, this isn’t always possible, it’s just how I do things. I’m so sorry for you OP, it’s the absolute worst part of having any animal in our lives, but you clearly love your girl very much, or you wouldn’t have gone to the lengths you have already. Trust in your own judgement, but if you do decide to pts, it will help you in the long run if you can do it with no regrets ?

 

[PapaverFollis]

I'm sorry that you're going through this.

The problem with a kissing spine specific group is that many many people on there will be very invested in believing that all cases are treatable... many will have spent vast sums of money treating their own horses. Some of whom will still be in pain but their financially and emotionally invested owners will be unable to see that. It's just human nature.

A second opinion may set your mind at rest or it may confuse the issue. From your description of the x rays and her behaviour plus the photo of her back, plus she's so young and it's not going to get better, I don't think I'd be keeping her going for very much longer. I might let her enjoy some of the summer if she's happy in the field and not too bothered by summer problems. But winter is hard on any kind of joint pain so I'd probably call it a day before then.

I'm sorry.

 

[TPO]

I'm struggling to understand how people on a Facebook group have made a decision that she can be treated without seeing the x-rays and yet a specialist vet who has has advised it's not possible?
I'm sorry for your mare, her back conformation sadly was always likely to lead to problems

Some internet experts, especially in groups like that, seem to think that they can "save" everything.

Given the results of the initial xrays and the experience of your vet I dont think I would pursue the second set. Even if the back half of the spinal processes are ok you still have the issue of what has already been identified and that seems to be severe.

Given her conformation even if the operation was successful, and all surgery comes with risks, rehab would be very difficult as you are fighting against nature in a big way. There are of course success cases but they are still challenging. How old is your horse?

I'm really sorry that you are in such an awful situation. It doesnt help to have people making you feel like you should be doing "more". More isnt always better and just because we can do something doesnt always mean that we should.

I think a straight conversation with your vet to see what they think and explore all the options. I'm pretty sure that vets aren't allowed, or at the very least are unwilling, to advise PTS so if that is an option you would like to discuss then I think you would have to make the vet aware that you were considering it.

Sorry again