Kissing spine - euthanasia

TPO said:
Some internet experts, especially in groups like that, seem to think that they can "save" everything.

Given the results of the initial xrays and the experience of your vet I dont think I would pursue the second set. Even if the back half of the spinal processes are ok you still have the issue of what has already been identified and that seems to be severe.

Given her conformation even if the operation was successful, and all surgery comes with risks, rehab would be very difficult as you are fighting against nature in a big way. There are of course success cases but they are still challenging. How old is your horse?

I'm really sorry that you are in such an awful situation. It doesnt help to have people making you feel like you should be doing "more". More isnt always better and just because we can do something doesnt always mean that we should.

I think a straight conversation with your vet to see what they think and explore all the options. I'm pretty sure that vets aren't allowed, or at the very least are unwilling, to advise PTS so if that is an option you would like to discuss then I think you would have to make the vet aware that you were considering it.

Sorry again
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my mare is only 8/9. Turns 9 this week actually. I wasn’t considering the pts. He actually brought it up and said it should be a strong contender in my decision making. He said in his opinion she has pain.
I never thought I would have to hear that. I lost my last horse to a sudden colic. I think it’s worse having control .
 
PapaverFollis said:
I'm sorry that you're going through this.

The problem with a kissing spine specific group is that many many people on there will be very invested in believing that all cases are treatable... many will have spent vast sums of money treating their own horses. Some of whom will still be in pain but their financially and emotionally invested owners will be unable to see that. It's just human nature.

A second opinion may set your mind at rest or it may confuse the issue. From your description of the x rays and her behaviour plus the photo of her back, plus she's so young and it's not going to get better, I don't think I'd be keeping her going for very much longer. I might let her enjoy some of the summer if she's happy in the field and not too bothered by summer problems. But winter is hard on any kind of joint pain so I'd probably call it a day before then.

I'm sorry.
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I think you are right, I don’t think I could bare having her in the summer knowing there would be an end. I just don’t think I could do it. The worst part of it all was I was prepared to do surgery, finances weren’t a problem we had insurance and had extra to cover it. And rehab wasn’t either I wouldve done it all. It’s the decision you make when you own a horse, you do everything in your power. But to be told not even that will fix it, really heart breaks me
 
chocolategirl said:
From experience, I’ve never put a horse to sleep until I’ve explored all options. This way, I can let them go with a clear conscience. I understand due to finances, this isn’t always possible, it’s just how I do things. I’m so sorry for you OP, it’s the absolute worst part of having any animal in our lives, but you clearly love your girl very much, or you wouldn’t have gone to the lengths you have already. Trust in your own judgement, but if you do decide to pts, it will help you in the long run if you can do it with no regrets ?
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I am the exactly same as you, I have to know I done everything I could, and I think thats what I will do. I’ll finish the x rays and get another opinion just to be sure.
Finances/time for rehab are not an issue at all which makes this even Harder, we were prepared to do anything
 
Heinze171 said:
I think it’s worse having control .
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I agree, it's "easier" when the decision is taken out of your hands and definite.

It's awful to be blindsided like that. I lost a horse/made the decision after xrays for one of mine and I wasnt expecting the xrays to show what they did (not KS) so I understand a little how you must be feeling.

Its absolutely the worst part of being a good owner and sadly part of the package when we become owners of any animal.

Write down all your questions and possible options then speak to your vet. If hes already brought up PTS and mentioned the pain levels I'd be inclined to think that it must be quite serious. I'm really sorry that you've found yourself in the position. Its heartbreaking.
 
Heinze171 said:
I am the exactly same as you, I have to know I done everything I could, and I think thats what I will do. I’ll finish the x rays and get another opinion just to be sure.
Finances/time for rehab are not an issue at all which makes this even Harder, we were prepared to do anything
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I am currently involved in rehabbing a mare with very minor KS, it is ongoing, requires a lot of time and is really a life long commitment for her owner, the one here has generally good conformation so we were starting with a good prognosis, the main issue with your mare is that her conformation is working against her and I cannot see how you will be able to rehab her successfully, even if an op seemed to work, you will just be constantly fighting her natural way of carrying herself and this is probably in part why the vet has said there is no point in operating.

I know how hard it is but in many ways it will be worse to put her through an op, get started on rehab and then find she is really struggling, having a horse operated on for anything, doing the box rest, starting the rehab is emotionally draining, it can take over your life, if the prognosis is good it can be worthwhile but if it is really poor having to make the call to pts after going through it all can make it far worse, you always want to 'give them another day' try something else when really you have already done too much, it is often better for the horse and the owner if they make that call before becoming any more emotionally involved, it is never easy.
 
I had a horse diagnosed with severe ks at 6 and was told it was too bad for surgery to be a viable option. I retired him in a situation where he could live out full time with a large run in shelter and thought he was pretty happy. Sadly after 4 years he started to be very aggressive to the other horses that he had lived with happily for years and hurt one of them badly before we called time and had him pts. If I could go back in time I would have given him one summer in the field and pts before winter as, in hindsight, he was in pain and hiding it as best he could. I'm so sorry you find yourself in this situation, it makes you feel so helpless x
 
be positive said:
I am currently involved in rehabbing a mare with very minor KS, it is ongoing, requires a lot of time and is really a life long commitment for her owner, the one here has generally good conformation so we were starting with a good prognosis, the main issue with your mare is that her conformation is working against her and I cannot see how you will be able to rehab her successfully, even if an op seemed to work, you will just be constantly fighting her natural way of carrying herself and this is probably in part why the vet has said there is no point in operating.

I know how hard it is but in many ways it will be worse to put her through an op, get started on rehab and then find she is really struggling, having a horse operated on for anything, doing the box rest, starting the rehab is emotionally draining, it can take over your life, if the prognosis is good it can be worthwhile but if it is really poor having to make the call to pts after going through it all can make it far worse, you always want to 'give them another day' try something else when really you have already done too much, it is often better for the horse and the owner if they make that call before becoming any more emotionally involved, it is never easy.
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I have to agree with you, I was sitting with her in the field today and she seemed so happy but we just don’t know what they are hiding. If surgery/rehab did happen it would be purely for retirement. I would never ride her ever again
 
Brownmare said:
I had a horse diagnosed with severe ks at 6 and was told it was too bad for surgery to be a viable option. I retired him in a situation where he could live out full time with a large run in shelter and thought he was pretty happy. Sadly after 4 years he started to be very aggressive to the other horses that he had lived with happily for years and hurt one of them badly before we called time and had him pts. If I could go back in time I would have given him one summer in the field and pts before winter as, in hindsight, he was in pain and hiding it as best he could. I'm so sorry you find yourself in this situation, it makes you feel so helpless x
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First person to be in a similar situation with the retirement part. I don’t care about riding I just want her safe and sound. My vet warmed me if I kept her she could get aggressive to the other horses, and that winter they are more aggressive because their bones hurt like us humans. My girl is not aggressive and I would never want her to become that way from pain. Wish someone would choose for me :(
 
Heinze171 said:
my mare is only 8/9. Turns 9 this week actually. I wasn’t considering the pts. He actually brought it up and said it should be a strong contender in my decision making. He said in his opinion she has pain.
I never thought I would have to hear that. I lost my last horse to a sudden colic. I think it’s worse having control .
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I think you need to consider very carefully just how rare it is these days for a vet to suggest that a horse should be put to sleep. There are people who will tell you that they will never do it, and that is not far from the truth. If your vet has already asked you to consider it as 'a strong contender', then I truly believe that what he actually meant was not consider it, but please do it.

I am like you, I could not keep a horse all summer and look at it every day knowing I was going to put it to sleep before winter. If she was mine, it would be done soon.
 
ycbm said:
I think you need to consider very carefully just how rare it is these days for a vet to suggest that a horse should be put to sleep. There are people who will tell you that they will never do it, and that is not far from the truth. If your vet has already asked you to consider it as 'a strong contender', then I truly believe that what he actually meant was not consider it, but please do it.

I am like you, I could not keep a horse all summer and look at it every day knowing I was going to put it to sleep before winter. If she was mine, it would be done soon.
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There is no way I Could. If I am honest I didn’t know it was rare, She is my second proper horse. My first one coliced and was clearly in extreme pain and they said she was going to die either way. So I understood her euthanasia but i didn’t know vets don’t suggest it often. A lot of people have said this todau
 
Heinze171 said:
I have to agree with you, I was sitting with her in the field today and she seemed so happy but we just don’t know what they are hiding. If surgery/rehab did happen it would be purely for retirement. I would never ride her ever again
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The problem is the rehab is ongoing, you would not be able to operate, rehab and retire her as she will revert so quickly and be back to square 1, possibly worse because the op will alter the way she is now and could destabilise her even further, she will require some regular 'work' to keep the muscle tone developed in the rehab stage, just being a horse will not be enough for something so serious with the conformation she has.

I agree with those saying it is very rare for a vet to suggest pts as an option, most need the owner to bring it up and many will try to offer alternatives, I have always been given support but I cannot think of any time it has been the vet that brought it up first, even with a few serious colics it has been me that said enough.
 
I remember very well my vet at the time saying to me 'I wouldn't think it was too soon if you asked me to put her to sleep now.' He was letting me know in the only way he could that their was no hope.

I opted for him to come back a few days later so we could have one last weekend with her. It was the worst decision I've ever made and in the end I had to ask him to come back the next day and put her down because she deteriorated overnight and was in horrendous pain. I will have to live with that on my conscience for the rest of my life.

We all know what you are going through and it's even harder for you because she is so young. I feel very sorry for you.
 
this is an updated picture of her back which you can see has increased muscle than the previous two posted but still very sway obviously.
 

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You sound like a fantastic, caring owner and I think your beautiful girl is very lucky to have you.
FB groups have a habit of making decisions very difficult due to so many differing opinions.
What you have here, however, are cold hard facts from a vet who is a specialist in his field....it's awful and I feel dreadfully sorry for you having to make the choice but I think I would follow your vets advice and PTS.
Huge hugs xx
 
OP, nothing to add advice wise to what the others have said, but just to share that I had my mare PTS in December after ongoing lameness issues. The only person whose opinion I listened to was my vet - he’s the one with the training, he knew my horse and my circumstances. He was fully supportive of my decision (we came to it together). I got a load of interference from ‘friends’ who told me to try everything under the sun, with no recognition of the extent of her issues.

Other people, on social media and off it, will try to influence you to do what they think they would do in your situation. This is not good advice, this is their opinion.

Only you and your vet can make the decision that is right for you and your horse. She is lucky to have you. Sending best wishes your way.
 
You are clearly a lovely owner, with a lovely mare. Your vet is unlikely to have said those things lightly. Vets don't generally advise to PTS unless absolutely necessary.

Surgery would good option if it were a permanent fix, even if just for comfortable retirement purposes. But if you did manage to get her operated on, really you are only buying time untíl it gets worse again. Extra time that your horse would have spent on box rest etc.

Personally I would leave her to enjoy the grass for the summer and then call it a day in October. Your horse looks in incredible condition, and if she is still running around the field it makes the decision so much harder. I had a much loved mare that I had PTS while looking great. It was absolutely the most difficult decision I ever made. For about 2 years I had many moments where I thought God she would still be in the field enjoying herself had I not done that. But I also take pride in the fact that I didn't let her deteriorate. My mare was the opposite to yours as she struggled during the summers (hard ground/grass and she was laminitic/HWSS) so I let her enjoy her freedom of winter and had her PTS before spring. Of course making the decision to PTS when your horse deteriorates is much easier, it takes a huge amount of strength and love to stop that from happening.
 
i think, being the caring owner that you are, you will know in your heart when she is in her pain and cannot continue,

my vet always said to me "it is better a day too soon than a day too late" as you would not want her to worsen in any way, shape or form.

its the last act of kindness that you can do for your special friend - i know it is very hard and painful - unfortunately we only get these animals on borrowed time.

thinking of you x
 
Thank you everyone, she is in unreal condition at the moment. Doesnt look like a thoroughbred trotting around, such a warmblood look. And its the best shes ever looked so yeah it does make it harder. Thank you all for you kind wishes, next lot of x rays are tomorrow.
I think itll be a decision between keeping her for the summer or not. I dont know if I could do it but I also know she could be happy (well looking it) being kept the summer.
 
So so sorry to read this.

Don't put her through the op, I did with my mare and she was put to sleep a year later as the rest of her was so broken too due to over compensating from the KS.

Definitely a full set of x-rays required. Good luck, shes lucky to have you x
 
Heinze171 said:
First person to be in a similar situation with the retirement part. I don’t care about riding I just want her safe and sound. My vet warmed me if I kept her she could get aggressive to the other horses, and that winter they are more aggressive because their bones hurt like us humans. My girl is not aggressive and I would never want her to become that way from pain. Wish someone would choose for me :(
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From what you have written here I think you know what needs to be done but it is a very hard thing to make that phone call. One thing you should remember is that animals are far more pragmatic about death than we are, and a quick painless death is far better than endless days of constant pain. Your mare is very lucky to have such a caring owner x
 
Heinze171 said:
The hardest part for me is the dilemma of whether she is in pain. She trots and gallops around her field playing with the others. But as I said previously she doesn’t want you near her back, she moved away, ears back, licks you and nibbles. She never wants to hurt you she just wants you away from her back. But how can a horse like this run around? :(
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Adrenaline. It masks pain temporarily. Both excitement and panic can cause it.
Heinze171 said:
she has hid it well, never wants to hurt. Will just use her head to bring you away from her back :(
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She is so kind to you and now you have to be kind to her and let her go. Just because she puts up with the pain does not mean she should have to. You have given her a good life, although a shorter life than usual.
 
The plan is a bit up in the air, so she ended up having only one more kissing. He expected at least the 5. Which I think anyone would looking at her confirmation. (So she has three in total)
He thinks she will be able to be ridden again but I said my main priority is her being pain free. We have 12 months on our insurance claim and are leaving aside about 2,000 incase she has to have the surgery.

She has had the steroid injections in the back (type of anti imflam) and having another injection for her bones in 2-4 weeks. We will see if injections work or not. Its all dependent on her, but I wont have her in pain. He said he doesnt see why she couldnt be ridden again once shes better. But I am not worried either way.

Surgery is a big decision for us, we defo couldnt fund it so would need to do it in the next 12 months with insurance. Been an emotional week, but ive got a little longer with her.
 
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