Kissing Spine - losing sleep over what to do ?

[DonskiWA]

I’ve been a bit on the anti-surgery side and so went down the non-surgical rehab route - which for the past 2 years has been working brilliantly. All of a sudden the symptoms have returned ? I’m devastated. My bio mechanical vet confirms the issue is his KS. I can’t imagine retiring him, he’s too young (12) and too awesome. So, perhaps surgery for us after all?
The thought of destabilising his spine with the lig snip seems terribly counter productive and the bone shave seems so risky and invasive.
Losing sleep over what to do?

 

[ycbm]

I'm not a vet but having had one with the ligament "snip" (which is actually a fairly brutal chiselling down between the processes, I have an x ray of the tool in action if you want to see it), I now think of the chiselling as less invasive, it just creates bigger external wounds.

I would not have the ligament operation done again but in your shoes it makes sense to consider the bone shaving.
.

 

[meleeka]

I would take a treatment, although I have no advice which. I lost my cob this year when he couldn’t get up in the field. I’m certain it was back pain that caused it. He had a sway back and KS but managed to keep him happy and healthy in work for years. If he had to have any time off, we’d have to start the rehab again, which was inconvenient, but was just one of those things. When he retired it didn’t take long for him to need 2 bute a day and then that wasn’t enough. I wish, in hindsight I’d have taken the surgery route as it would have made things a lot less complicated long term.

 

[sbloom]

Have you photos of him? There are so many ways to rehab, there is a strong possibility that there is a different approach out there, with appropriate ongoing maintenance of course, that will work even better. I think I agree about bone shave versus ligament snip, stability is so much more important than most of us realise, and the ligament snip can only be detrimental to stability.

 

[DonskiWA]

I'm not a vet but having had one with the ligament "snip" (which is actually a fairly brutal chiselling down between the processes, I have an x ray of the tool in action if you want to see it), I now think of the chiselling as less invasive, it just creates bigger external wounds.

I would not have the ligament operation done again but in your shoes it makes sense to consider the bone shaving.
.

Gawd, I think I should definitely NOT watch that, I’d ever have it done then - ignorance is bliss!

 

[Goldenstar]

Basically the snips cut the nerves and give you a better chance of pain free rehab .
my horse had four snips and two shaved in August .
He done very very well we intervened with the drastic option early on he had no pain he was well muscled all that happened was he got a very small warm patch on his back this appeared in a months period .
The rehab is tedious at first but you get through it and although he’s now off work because of my injury he would be back on pretty well normal life by now .
If the horse is a dude that you like and he has training in him ( I might not be so keen on a young horse failing at the beginning of training ) this is not an operation I would be in any way frightened of .
I have great results both times both in fully mature horses , I would however talk with the vet about having a generally look at the horse soundness wise before forking out .
I had Sky checked out for PSD any indicator of that and I would not have proceeded .

 

[ycbm]

I wish that word "snip" had never been used by vets, it gives completely the wrong impression of how brutal and invasive the procedure is. The surgeon who did my horse was dripping in sweat by the time he had finished.

Spoiler: gore alert

 

[LEC]

Definitely get suspensorys scanned before you start going down this road. Far too often there are secondary things going on which ultimately cause bigger issues.

 

[sbloom]

Definitely get suspensorys scanned before you start going down this road. Far too often there are secondary things going on which ultimately cause bigger issues.

Agreed, plus SI, hocks and front feet can all be implicated and must be considered in rehab. Whatever allowed the KS to happen the first time will have caused secondary issues, even if they were very mild and subclinical.

 

[ycbm]

Also needing consideration is that some are born with processes so thick and crowded that it would be extremely difficult ever to get them ridden without them touching.

 

[sbloom]

Also needing consideration is that some are born with processes so thick and crowded that it would be extremely difficult ever to get them ridden without them touching.

And that the odd horse that gets a spinal xray without being symptomatic can show very close or possibly even touching processes, as with navicular the correlation is not consistent.

 

[Birker2020]

Definitely get suspensorys scanned before you start going down this road. Far too often there are secondary things going on which ultimately cause bigger issues.

Yes I agree 100%. Mine was thought to have suspensory issues, an operation was offered although at this stage he wasn't scanned or actually diagnosed, it was just suspected and an operation was on the cards if he'd been found to have suspensory issues.

Sadly not all horses can come sound but if you throw enough things at it (when I say it, I mean KS not the horse) then you may be able to turn things around. It sounds like you've done better than me anyway, having had two good years through rehab. I can only salute you for your effort. I know how mentally and physically exhausting it can be. Huge mental toll.

My horse has multiple issues, his main one being SI issues, I was mis sold him in Oct 21 having passed a full vettting.

I went down the rehab route like you and spent 4 months building my boy up by doing groundwork including lunging, pole work, long reining and eventually a pro rider riding him. In his case sadly there was too much damage. It's not a nice position to be in. He also has KS, possible suspensory issues (never scanned), he also had his hocks and his coffin joints medicated and ended up having his back and si medicated twice within 4 months was brought back into work 3 times by a pro rider but alas nothing has worked. You can see ultimately the top photo and bottom photo, the difference. He now looks like the top photo again, having lost all his top line, he seems so flimsy from that bottom photo where is was fit with work with a much improved and stronger core. I'm sorry you are in this position. If my horse didn't have multiple issues I may have gone down the KS surgical route, however by the time I even thought about doing this, we found all the other issues and it would have been in vain anyway.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

Agreed, plus SI, hocks and front feet can all be implicated and must be considered in rehab. Whatever allowed the KS to happen the first time will have caused secondary issues, even if they were very mild and subclinical.

This! My mare had KS, 4 processes. She had them shaved down and the op was very successful, recovery was ok and she rehabbed well. She then didn’t feel right a few months later, found she had bad arthritic hocks (at 9) and even with steroids she wasn’t right. Vets couldn’t put a finger on it so she was PTS after spending a lot of money.

I think she compensated elsewhere due to the KS. I’d operate again, but make sure I got the full picture first.

 

[sbloom]

This! My mare had KS, 4 processes. She had them shaved down and the op was very successful, recovery was ok and she rehabbed well. She then didn’t feel right a few months later, found she had bad arthritic hocks (at 9) and even with steroids she wasn’t right. Vets couldn’t put a finger on it so she was PTS after spending a lot of money.

I think she compensated elsewhere due to the KS. I’d operate again, but make sure I got the full picture first.

The way I explain it to my customers is that the root "cause" is a compensatory movement pattern - this can be triggered by an immediate issue such as an injury, an ill fitting saddle etc but so often was initially triggered by something very small, or very early on. Some people believe that up to 50% of foals are born with broken ribs, usually on the left, and by day 3 their entire body has compensated. Fine in the wild but not with 10-12 stones on top being asked to do circles, ride on surfaces etc. So this less than perfect way of moving causes the issues, usually over a fair time period. One symptom is not necessarily the result of another, and in fact getting into primary/secondary seldom seems to be helpful, but instead looking at posture and movement helps us to get to the root of the issue.

Bodywork and groundwork as a package SHOULD at least help all of the conditions, though of course can't always fix them all completely. Instead we chase pain, and symptoms, in a whack a mole approach which never gets to the root of the problem and often leaves some symptoms untreated as they're masked by the more serious stuff. Looking at posture and movement means that, by implication, we are tackling all of them.

As much a general ramble as aimed at you HF!

 

[Zoeypxo]

A friends ex racer had a bone scan prior to KS surgery to get a picture of his whole body before committing to surgery
Bone scan only highlighted the KS so he had bone shave surgery and came back to full work jumping bsja

if insured bone scan and scan suspensorys probably a good idea

 

[Birker2020]

Some people believe that up to 50% of foals are born with broken ribs, usually on the left, and by day 3 their entire body has compensated. Fine in the wild but not with 10-12 stones on top being asked to do circles, ride on surfaces etc.

Wow I never knew that, fascinating.
Just had a quick google search, more common in maiden mares and difficult births. Thanks for sharing.

 

[I don’t like mondays]

Definitely get suspensorys scanned before you start going down this road. Far too often there are secondary things going on which ultimately cause bigger issues.

I’d 10000% agree with this. Owned a horse with KS, couldn’t afford bone scan but had the opp (DSP removal), surgery successful, rehabbed religiously but the wheels fell off a few months down the line because of other issues (eg bad SI arthritis which only came to light post surgery and rehab). Very very rare for KS to be the sole issue. My horse was PTS. Find out what other issues you horse has first (many can be masked by KS), then you can take a view. Surgery (particularly dsp removal or bone shave) can work but it’s not successful long term ime if they have secondary issues (usually hocks, si, suspensories). Also post bone shave you can get calcification again and kS can return if you don’t teach the right postural patterns and build correct muscle. They always need to be working correctly the rest of their life. Good luck.

 

[DonskiWA]

Oh

Yes I agree 100%. Mine was thought to have suspensory issues, an operation was offered although at this stage he wasn't scanned or actually diagnosed, it was just suspected and an operation was on the cards if he'd been found to have suspensory issues.

Sadly not all horses can come sound but if you throw enough things at it (when I say it, I mean KS not the horse) then you may be able to turn things around. It sounds like you've done better than me anyway, having had two good years through rehab. I can only salute you for your effort. I know how mentally and physically exhausting it can be. Huge mental toll.

My horse has multiple issues, his main one being SI issues, I was mis sold him in Oct 21 having passed a full vettting.

I went down the rehab route like you and spent 4 months building my boy up by doing groundwork including lunging, pole work, long reining and eventually a pro rider riding him. In his case sadly there was too much damage. It's not a nice position to be in. He also has KS, possible suspensory issues (never scanned), he also had his hocks and his coffin joints medicated and ended up having his back and si medicated twice within 4 months was brought back into work 3 times by a pro rider but alas nothing has worked. You can see ultimately the top photo and bottom photo, the difference. He now looks like the top photo again, having lost all his top line, he seems so flimsy from that bottom photo where is was fit with work with a much improved and stronger core. I'm sorry you are in this position. If my horse didn't have multiple issues I may have gone down the KS surgical route, however by the time I even thought about doing this, we found all the other issues and it would have been in vain anyway.

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oh dear, what a heart rending process for you

 

[DonskiWA]

Wow, how heartbreaking for some of you and how wonderful for others. I’ll get a bone scan done then for sure. Thankyou for sharing your stories.

 

[I don’t like mondays]

Wow, how heartbreaking for some of you and how wonderful for others. I’ll get a bone scan done then for sure. Thankyou for sharing your stories.

I think that’s really wise. Some horses can show KS on an X-ray but the pain is coming from elsewhere, at least you’ll know what’s going on with diagnostics like a scan. Good luck to you and your horse

 

[ownedbyaconnie]

So I’ve just been through this.

Started off with hock arthritis and really sore SI. Treated that and started rehab after injecting the hocks and she started tanking and bucking with me out hacking. Suspected her back as now we had fixed the hind she was able to push from behind and this highlighted that her back was sore. X rayed and nerve blocked to confirm KS.

Had the ligament snip on 4 processes I think with an amazing vet in Yorkshire. Walked in hand 2 x 30 mins for about 4 weeks. Then dropped a walk and added in a lunge a few days a week for another 4 weeks then started hacking in straight lines.

Hacking started at 20 mins walk and gradually increased at 5-10 mins per week to 50 then introduced trot then canter. She looked absolutely brilliant after the walking in hand and the walk work ridden but just wasn’t right once we added in a substantial amount of trot. Hock injections didn’t work so had them fused, coffin joints then needed injecting as she was compensating for the hocks and then finally her TMJ needed injecting.

Looking back with hindsight I think it all stems from her TMJ. She’s always been funny about her head which I took the long and slow route before I had a baby. We did very gentle schooling, gentle tack, working on relaxation, suppleness etc. never asking for a contact. Then she had 9 months off whilst I was pregnant and I think lost more of her muscle, balance etc than I realised and this highlighted her little niggles and created a bit of a spiral.

However, looks fab now, is sound and happy, fittest she’s ever been, her way of going has completely changed. She’s seeking a contact with no input from me and I would do it all again.

Also just to note, my vet, physio, everyone told me to use gadgets like a belly band etc for the walking in hand and lunging but I’ve always been of the mind of let the horse find they own balance so I didn’t use anything. Just a headcollar. I also did a fraction of the lunging suggested.

 

[DonskiWA]

So I’ve just been through this.

Started off with hock arthritis and really sore SI. Treated that and started rehab after injecting the hocks and she started tanking and bucking with me out hacking. Suspected her back as now we had fixed the hind she was able to push from behind and this highlighted that her back was sore. X rayed and nerve blocked to confirm KS.

Had the ligament snip on 4 processes I think with an amazing vet in Yorkshire. Walked in hand 2 x 30 mins for about 4 weeks. Then dropped a walk and added in a lunge a few days a week for another 4 weeks then started hacking in straight lines.

Hacking started at 20 mins walk and gradually increased at 5-10 mins per week to 50 then introduced trot then canter. She looked absolutely brilliant after the walking in hand and the walk work ridden but just wasn’t right once we added in a substantial amount of trot. Hock injections didn’t work so had them fused, coffin joints then needed injecting as she was compensating for the hocks and then finally her TMJ needed injecting.

Looking back with hindsight I think it all stems from her TMJ. She’s always been funny about her head which I took the long and slow route before I had a baby. We did very gentle schooling, gentle tack, working on relaxation, suppleness etc. never asking for a contact. Then she had 9 months off whilst I was pregnant and I think lost more of her muscle, balance etc than I realised and this highlighted her little niggles and created a bit of a spiral.

However, looks fab now, is sound and happy, fittest she’s ever been, her way of going has completely changed. She’s seeking a contact with no input from me and I would do it all again.

Also just to note, my vet, physio, everyone told me to use gadgets like a belly band etc for the walking in hand and lunging but I’ve always been of the mind of let the horse find they own balance so I didn’t use anything. Just a headcollar. I also did a fraction of the lunging suggested.

Wow, that‘s a hell of a journey!

 

[ownedbyaconnie]

Wow, that‘s a hell of a journey!

It was and like others have said I can almost guarantee it’s secondary to something else. It’s not a quick easy fix.

They’ll have made some postural changes and this is the result. My yard owner specialises in rehab and I’ve seen so many horses come and go that have KS surgery and then during rehab hock arthritis/coffin joint/stifles/suspensories get flagged.

I haven’t brought myself to watch YCBMS’s video and I didn’t ask my vet any questions because I didn’t want to know however recovery was very quick. She stayed at the hospital for a night and when I brought her home she got in her stable and had a roll. She started walking in hand 4 days after surgery I think and she strided out, pushing from behind and lengthening her back whereas her way of going before surgery has always been quite hollow. I thought she’d be sore and walking a bit gingerly!

 

[ycbm]

It isn't a video, it's a photo. I don't think thy operation is particularly painful, btw, just much more invasive and potentially destabilising than suggested by the word "snip".
.

 

[ycbm]

Deleted

 

[ycbm]

It was and like others have said I can almost guarantee it’s secondary to something else. It’s not a quick easy fix.

They’ll have made some postural changes and this is the result. My yard owner specialises in rehab and I’ve seen so many horses come and go that have KS surgery and then during rehab hock arthritis/coffin joint/stifles/suspensories get flagged.

I haven’t brought myself to watch YCBMS’s video and I didn’t ask my vet any questions because I didn’t want to know however recovery was very quick. She stayed at the hospital for a night and when I brought her home she got in her stable and had a roll. She started walking in hand 4 days after surgery I think and she strided out, pushing from behind and lengthening her back whereas her way of going before surgery has always been quite hollow. I thought she’d be sore and walking a bit gingerly!

I think it's amazing what you've been prepared to do for your pony, especially when you've got a baby too. I'm glad it's all paid off.
.

 

[ownedbyaconnie]

It isn't a video, it's a photo. I don't think thy operation is particularly painful, btw, just much more invasive and potentially destabilising than suggested by the word "snip".
.

Ah I wasn’t concentrating last night when I scrolled through the thread ?. i still don’t want to see a photo ?

I was really torn about the surgery as had read a few threads on here but in the end put my faith in my vet and for us (so far) it does seem to have paid off but I do think you can’t just rely on the surgery to fix it. The rehab after is 9/10ths of the recovery and go into it expecting something else to crop up. My vet is absolutely amazing at lameness so I had faith that I’d find the underlying problem.

It has been a long slog and really taken over my life. I’ve been up at 5 walking the pony in hand with baby on my back before taking her to nursery and then on to work and then doing the same at the end of the day. I’ve also done lots of YouTube watching and article reading on posture and I’m getting there. It’s been hard to retrain my eye to see what pony should look like rather than what she has looked like.

I think it's amazing what you've been prepared to do for your pony, especially when you've got a baby too. I'm glad it's all paid off.
.

Thank you! She is an absolute diamond of a pony and I’d do it all again for her. Sadly she does not feel the same for me ?

 

[Birker2020]

Oh

oh dear, what a heart rending process for you

It really is, I've really struggled with my MH and trying to make a decision for his future. Now its a toss up between the blood bank or a retirement home for him. I honestly don't know if I can give him up totally so its looking more and more like retirement and debt.

 

[sbloom]

Also just to note, my vet, physio, everyone told me to use gadgets like a belly band etc for the walking in hand and lunging but I’ve always been of the mind of let the horse find they own balance so I didn’t use anyth

Not me ?

 

[ownedbyaconnie]

Not me ?

Of course!