Kissing Spine - need positive vibes

[Holly7]

Hi All,

Well six months on and my boy decided to totally explode rodeo style at the weekend with me on board!!!. Managed to stay on for four of the bronks but then had no choice when he did a 360 turn on one of them at the arena fence, splat I went !!!

Have the physio coming tomorrow to check if anythings going on (wasn't due to till end of March as we had moved to a two monthly check).

Upset to say the least and feeling battered and bruised !

Has anyone who has undergone the DSP surgery had any major set backs in their rehab programme? Hes been back under saddle since beginning of Jan. Saddle check end Jan, all Ok but change to a non elastic girth. I have done, but am now thinking maybe this is a problem to him? Maybe he needs the elastic part to make him comfy? Have noticed the past 5/6 times when mounting he has really raised his back like he's going to explode, but hasn't (luckily).

Any ideas anyone?

 

[be positive]

I have not dealt with KS but suspect you have ignored the warning signs, raising the back on mounting, until he exploded, it may well be the girth causing him some discomfort or tension, it may be that the last few times you rode he was not working through properly after the back raising and it has set off a reaction, you may need to go back a step or two in the rehab but hopefully it will just be a blip and your physio will advise you what to do next.

Some horses definitely prefer an elastic girth, was there a good reason for changing?

 

[EQUIDAE]

Even without the bucking I'd have taken the rising of the back when mounting as a sign that something was amiss. The physio has no way of knowing if there is a problem with KS as it is mechanical, not muscular pain. Maybe get the vet to X-ray to see if the processes are OK. I assume you have had spinal fusing done? Could they have failed?

 

[ycbm]

Even without the bucking I'd have taken the rising of the back when mounting as a sign that something was amiss. The physio has no way of knowing if there is a problem with KS as it is mechanical, not muscular pain. Maybe get the vet to X-ray to see if the processes are OK. I assume you have had spinal fusing done? Could they have failed?

What's spinal fusing?

I thought normal surgical treatments for kissing spines were ligament desmotomy or dorsal spinal process removal.

Holly7, Wagtail had a horse operated on who simply never accepted being brought back into work, and bucked on doing up the girth.

Did your horse buck before the operation? If they have already lesseneed a pain response, they can react to the memory even if the pain should be gone.

 

[Holly7]

I bought him in May 2015 and he passed a five stage vetting - he was 4 supposedly backed for 10 weeks. In July he bronked my friend off (this was the first and only bad reaction to ridden work - I was out of action due to cellulitis from a fly bite!)

I took him back to ground work, long reining and lunging. To me he didn't look right behind. Took him to vets and diagnosed severe KS - the worse she'd seen in a long time for a 4 yr old and SI injury. He had ligament desmotomy of 5 processes.

Be positive - girth was because it moved slightly (and I mean slightly) forward so advised a non elastic girth to hold stability or a prolite one (but they don't do his size in narrow gage).

Equidae - the back raising the first few times, I thought Oh maybe you have learnt to carry yourself and lift your back (like when youngsters finally work out to lift their backs and carry themselves better) Obviously am now thinking other things !!

ycbm - no never bucked, but as earlier mention had only owned him a few months prior to him having surgery. He hasn't put a foot wrong (bar bronking on the lunge etc at the beginning of rehab or just having a play).

This horse was a horse that I bought how was frightened of the saddle and bridle (I now know due to the pain from KS and SI) and was severely depressed when tacked up, he completely closed down. He is now much happier.

 

[BethH]

Fusing in KS is very rare, usually the bones cross and therefore by snipping the ligament or shaving the bone away the touching/crossing spines don't anymore. My horse had this op done and 3 spinal processes cut and I successfully rehabbed him 9years ago.

If I might make a suggestion, I wonder if he has done too much too soon. Throwing a few ideas out there - I don't know anything about the ligament snip but when you start to work them again post op they do get sore and a regular massage really helps. When did he last have a chiro/body worker check? I also used to give 1/2 a bute here and there to knock any swelling or soreness on the head if he had got carried away and gave some valerian in his feed 1/2 hr before work to relax him if he looked uptight. Also I never work him on an empty stomach, they can be prone to ulcers from the stress so he always has a small haynet first. For me, the most important thing about KS is that it is a massive mental burden that the horse has carried around with it, low level grumbling pain like KS is with them 24/7 and they worry that everything they do is going to hurt so tend to run away before they get asked!

From what you say in your posts I can tell he is a worrier and that being ridden makes him nervous. I think the slowly but surely approach is best, short sessions ridden, mine used to panic at 15-20mins so I would end on a good note and then long rein the next day.

How much ground work/long reining have you done to strengthen him since the op before getting back on. I took it slowly but surely. We spent 14 weeks doing ground work 5-6 days a week before I sat on him and then I carried on doing a couple of sessions a week so he could strengthen in trot and canter without the weight of a rider. I concentrated on building muscle for 6months, even when ridden, it was a lot of walk to ensure correctness. Now I still regularly long rein so I can watch how he is moving. The first 6wks of ground work I spend getting a good swinging walk with an odd bit of trot so he learned to really come through and push from behind.

KS horse are used to compensating and not using themselves correctly, post op they move differently and that means lots of new muscles/soreness and really regular saddle checks. Mine was changing shape every 6weeks at one point, it's not just the width of the saddle that matters, their entire body changes so it need to be sitting properly. Mine is only ever now ridden in a dressage saddle, I even jump a bit in it. I found anything even slightly forward cut interferred with his shoulder and made him sore, they will be very very sensitive to any pain so I think he is shouting loudly to tell you to stop as he is worried it will hurt.

I would give the vet a call for advice but I would also go back to a couple of weeks long reining and get someone to video him moving so you can slow it down and have a good look. Does he lift his back when you put a roller on or only when it's the saddle?

Also, prolite now do a version of the fairfax girth, £80 instead of £250. My horse is very comfortable in it and it is very soft, best girth I've ever had and far better than the usual thin ones. Also I only use a numnah, I was told never to use a saddle cloth as it puts pressure on his back.

Hope some of that info might be useful, it can be a long journey but try not to be too disheartened.

 

[Goldenstar]

One of my horses has had six dorsal spines reshaped , I was advised that the ligament snip is not showing good longer term results .
I hope to get the all clear to ride him this week and I will not be getting on if he puts his back up .
It's never a good sign when a horse does this .
My vet is checking my horse fortnightly as is the the physio and the saddler is coming monthly .

I think you need the vet to look at your horse pronto.
A bucking fit is what I am dreading the most with mine .

 

[Holly7]

Hi

Thanks for your responses, lots of food for thought.

BethH - Last physio check was 29th Jan, all Ok no spasms. He is never worked on an empty stomach as I've already had a horse with ulcers so know all too well the issues they can cause. He is only ridden twice a week in the school, never two days in a row and goes for a hack at the weekend of approx. 20-25 mins. He has two days off and the other days he is lunged. I would say none of his lunging or ridden work is over 30mins. He was operated on Sept 1st, then we had a few set backs due to the SI requiring injecting etc. He has done since then long reining, lunging and trotting poles and raised trotting poles all under the guidance of the vet and physio. Physio was here weekly until just before Christmas then moved to 3-4 weeks intervals. Vet technically signed me off and over to physio hands in November. We have brought him back slowly really as he had to get over a massive hurdle of hating the saddle and bridle, so for a month he was lunging in saddle with no rider. I then rebacked him. Had saddler out to check all OK and then rechecked a month after starting the ridden work. His saddle is a new VSD as my dressage saddle was too narrow for him and too deeper seat for him to carry. The prolite girth recommended was the £80 equivalent of the Fairfax one, but she said he needs the narrow gage. They only go up to 48" and my big lad (ID) needs 50-52"!! I also only use nunmahs.

Maybe I've done too much ridden work, as many a time I try and do trotting poles under saddle as still have a horse with a lazy behind :-0)

Goldenstar - that's interesting and worrying! Its always hard to find research of failures of the ligament snip. There is another horse at my yard who under went same op with a different vet practise. She is a 18 months on and horse now has ulcers, SI issue and bone spavin :-((( Her is worse than before the op - so quite worrying.

Its hard to tell the back being up till you actually mount by which point it might the point of no return !! ;-0)

Physio coming today so will be having a massive chat about everything then will probably be ringing the vet to see what she thinks aswell.

 

[frostyfingers]

My horse had the ligament snip in the early summer of 2013 and was back in ridden work by October, fully fit and hunting by January. This was obviously all under the guidance of the vet, surgeon and physio. He regularly had the physio (every other month), I did all his stretching exercises daily and took him back to the equine hospital at 6 and 12 months for follow up x rays (at my request, not because the vets thought it necessary, but they humoured me because I was paranoid).

At his last check up at 3 years on he was absolutely fine, as were his hocks and SI which can also cause an issue. Sadly I lost him to a completely unrelated internal infection just before Christmas. I had been advised that the long term benefits of the surgery were a bit of an unknown, but for me it was a no brainer. He wasn't suitable for retirement, steroid injections had only worked mildly once and it was either surgery or PTS. I had 3 years I wouldn't have had due to the surgery, he was pain free, busy and enjoying himself so I don't regret it for a moment.

I do hope you can resolve his issues, it's a lot of work to get them back and it must be very worrying to see him uncomfortable again.

 

[Holly7]

Thanks frostyfingers and so sorry for your loss :-(( I lost a mother and daughter this time last year and this boy was bought to mend my broken heart; only to find out the poor lad was broken himself.

I religiously do his stretching exercises, so much so physio has taken photos to use in leaflets as hes so good at them :-0)

I think I am like you and will be asking for an xray again just to check as I am a paranoia too :-0)

Am so gutted that this has happened, but do not believe for one minute he is just doing it cause hes a baby (like a lot of people at the stables are saying). I don't believe they just do these things for no reason. Obviously don't want to retire him as hes only 4, will be 5 in May.

 

[BethH]

To be honest you sound like you are doing everything right and not doing too much. Before the surgery did he have anything else diagnosed as wrong? I only wonder about his feet, as friend had the bone op and it didn't work as they discovered the horse had navicular and I am really started to believe that poor foot balance can be a contributing factor to a horse comfort and skeletal health if that doesn't sound crazy.

Might be worth having a look at the feet, it's been a very wet winter and if the internal cartilage in the foot has weakened it will cause loads of soreness further up, if he is a bit sore given the KS history he might be very over sensitive, mine is like that!

The lifting of the back shows that he does have mobility through it as often they can't do that. Was he lifting his back when you just put the saddle on to lunge or is it only if you try to mount? Also, you say he is still lazy behind. They do stiffen up a little when you start riding them again after surgery, but I would expect you to see a much improved hind end action as a result of the ability to lift the back and come through which also makes me wonder about sore feet/heels. A slowed down video of him moving might be helpful.

Only other thought is have you tried a Mctimoney Chiro to check him over, they are good at finding things. You need a chiro that won't throw the horse but will work on the muscles and manipulate gently. Works well on mine, I didn't rate the physio stuff. Deffo have another chat with the vet tho.

 

[Holly7]

It doesn't sound crazy. I lost my little girl last year to that exact thing. Navicular, KS, SI & hind leg ligament damage. She was a solid mass from her ears to the a***hole, extremely unhappy and unfortunately un fixable as we were in a merri-go-round of area effecting the other.

Nothing else diagnosed bar the SI. There was a query over his stifles but that seems/appears to have sorted itself out.

He only appears to raise his back when I mount (off a mounting block, never from the floor).

Hes always been lazy behind, or even just lazy really !! Although that might all be to do with the KS & SI and actually he does walk to the field faster than he used to, but hes pretty much my speed or no speed.

I've videod him slow motion and all looks good. Tracking up more than he ever has (but not perfect yet), goes long and low on the lunge (totally bare no gadgets). Good forward upward and downwards transitions.

Physio came yesterday and can't find anything muscle spasms wise etc and commented that he just gets better and better moving each time she sees him.

Mctimoney - I don't rate them. Horse walked like its leg was broke for two days following one of their visits ! Never again :-0)

So basically, feels hes a baby who is bored and its hard work at the moment due to having to stand in quite a bit, due to water logged field (which wont be helping).

Have left a message for the vet just to see what she thinks etc.

 

[BethH]

I do think you know what you are doing, the ability to transition paces well is brilliant, so he must be able to bear weight properly on his back end. I agree chat to the vet, also look at his heels and make sure he has short enough toes and heels that haven't run forward and are level from side to side as that might affect things.

I suspect he needs to move on from the remembered pain of being ridden, he is still young and that will make him very reactionary as he's still immature. What breed is he, mine's a 3/4 conne & 1/4 tb he took ages to mature and is still a completely over sensitive little soul! I think slowly but surely taking your time is the way to go, he definitely sounds like he won't let you rush him!!!

 

[Holly7]

Hes a full Irish Draft. Although is quite small compared to his lineage. Only 15.2HH but all his pedigree are 16.2 - 17.2!!! However when I bought him I was told he was twin but the other died (not sure whether they meant died full term at birth or whether it was snipped earlier in the pregnancy). Therefore a bit of a runt. . . . . well supposedly, but really I don't think I can trust anything I was told when purchased now really !!! ;-0)

Got the farrier today so will be asking more about feet etc

 

[Goldenstar]

How long is it since his saddle was checked could he have changed shape and the saddle gone out of fit?

 

[Holly7]

Saddle was checked 27th January, which is when I was advised to get a non elastic girth. His template had changed slightly about 1/4 inch increase over the withers, but nothing detrimental and advised still plenty of room for him and his shoulders and nice space down the gullet.

 

[Goldenstar]

I would get the saddle rechecked I know that 5mm difference caused behaviour changes on one of my horses .

 

[Holly7]

******UPDATE*******

After speaking with the vet last week, was advised to give him bute for 3 days and to start him on gastric aid for 10 days incase he has ulcers. Go back to original girth and re do ground work for 2 days, then ground work with saddle on no rider for 2 days, then mount on the 3rd day and see whether raises back or not. So as hes been on ground work all last week anyhow after throwing me off, I put him on the bute and mounted on the 3rd day to see what reaction under the bute. None, but I had lunged him first - all calm on lunge. On the 4th day (no bute) I mounted straight from saddling up, he had been stood in all day aswell - no reaction, I then lunged him all calm. Last night I mounted straight from saddling up and he had been stood in all day again - little bit of reaction, didn't feel as calm and quiet as the previous day (but that could be due to standing in all day) So tonight, as he will have been out I am going to saddle and mount and see whether it feels like it does last night.

((turn out is a bit hit and miss at the moment due to the weather))

I need to speak with vet and update prognosis on Friday.

 

[BethH]

KS horses as I think I said are hugely sensitive, what you've said is interesting as it does sound like he's had a slight niggle of soreness and is expecting it to hurt much more soon! The bute is obviously helping with something. Let us know how you get on tonight, you're being very brave, it's a horrid feeling when you can feel them panicking, maybe he needs a little bute here and there as per my ealier post to knock the soreness on the head which will give you a chance to build the muscle he needs to support the back. Clearly you shouldn't rely on it if there is a problem, but is worth trying if it allows you to move forward. Can you get someone to walk round in the school with you to give him some confidence on the ground, I did this with my horse and made sure they had a large pack of polos so he was more interested in that than whether he had someone on his back.

Although I'm not really one for lunging, if it means you do that for 10 mins first so he is more relaxed, I would carry on doing it. Safe is better than sorry, especially with a youngster who won't be as sensible and if he isn't getting loads of turnout he will have more energy & might be stiffening up a bit in the stable so warm his muscles up first (have you though about putting the saddle on 1/2hr before you ride and letting him eat a haynet before you mount)?!!!! Good luck let us know how you get on.

 

[Holly7]

So, I put the saddle on for about 20 mins before mounting, all felt OK. I then got off and lunged (just in case we had to mad energy to exhert) . . . but we didn't and if anything he was a little lamb, but also a bit backward as in not too happy about cantering and preferred to trot. So due to this I was brave enough to mount and have a ride around in the arena. I did walk and trot and felt he was a bit stuffy (not as forward going as what he had been recently when I felt we were really making progress) So I tried canter and he gave it me for only for about 2/3 strides on both of his reins, not really wanting to canter at all. So called it a day, as was pleased he hadn't acted/or tried to bronk me off!

Re-spoke with vet and she is coming this week to see him as thinks it may be his SI is causing him issues again. So will update then.

 

[EQUIDAE]

I'd be concerned that reluctance to canter is a sign that everything still isn't OK but he's being too polite to do anything about it. I really hope the vet rules it out.

 

[catembi]

Mine is the other way - he *only* wants to canter. He is an ex-racer & had 3 processes removed & a lig snip in June 2015. He is v v stuffy in walk & trot (follow-up xrays were perfect & vet says he's pain-free) but will canter round & round perfectly okay. He also goes withdrawn rather than explosive.

It's all a rollercoaster, isn't it, all ups & downs, & for us mostly downs.

T x

 

[Holly7]

I am really concerned about the reluctance to canter. Only a couple of hours to wait now :0)