Kissing Spine Surgery - Getting Worried!

islandspirit

islandspirit

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My boy is due to have kissing spine surgery on Tuesday of next week. He has 11 dorsal processes that touch with no gap at all and I have been advised that surgery is the only option or PTS. My initial reaction was go ahead with the surgery as I have to give him the chance but a few people I have spoken to say it would be kinder to put him to sleep and now I really don't know what to do. Any experiences and advice would be gladly accepted.
 
Personally if it was me and my horse I'd like to offer him every chance to be painfree and happy before Id consider putting him to sleep. 11 is quite a large amount to get done but if the vet thinks its possible and the benefits outweigh the risk of surgery (and he must if they plan on doing it!) then why not go ahead with it? On the other hand if you do get him PTS would you not have that small doubt in your mind that could could have done more, and that the surgery could have been a success.
I think if the vet thinks its ok then go ahead with the surgery and give it a shot. Its better to have tried then not tried at all :)
 
Please think seriously before putting your boy through this sort of surgery. It is a long recovery period and in our experinece the results are never truly satisfactory. 11 vertebrae is an awful lot.

Some horses respond well to physio and a change of riding style. Others can enjoy a pain free retirement without the need for surgery.

I have given you my contact details in your mail box.
 
I had my young horse PTS a couple of years ago due to kissing spine. He was amazingly bred with brothers and sisters popping round Badminton and was meant to be my horse of a lifetime. Such an easy horse that you could ride bareback in a headcollar at 4.

By the time he was diagnosed he had also damaged both his hind leg ligaments (which the insurance co informed us were because of his KS so they wouldn't cover as we were over our £5k - to be fair we would have found it difficult to find an expert who would have said it was unrelated!) So we were left with a horse that needed KS surgery and then after the rehab, double ligament surgery. Rossdales also couldn't guarantee he didn't have other problems because for a year he had tried to compensate for his back and had put strain on the rest of his body prior to diagnosis (even though countless vets had been out to see him they all didn't know what was wrong until he had a scan).

He hadn't gone lame at all and only bucked once we tried the tilldren and shock wave therapy.

He was only 6 but was in enormous amounts of pain (once treatment started)and we couldn't and wouldn't put him through the surgery. Spine surgery in humans is risky enough and they are far more practised at it. They gave us such a low % chance that he would recover fully (and be able to have a useful working life rather than stuck in the field) we decided to have him PTS.

Even on a lot of bute he would come in from the field lame if it had rained as the tiny bit of mud would pull on his legs. He also started to rear when being lead around, but again only if he had had a scoot around the field or it was muddy - we surmised that he wasn't a happy horse and it was our responsibility to ensure the pain didn't go on.

One of the saddest days of my life but I don't regret the decision, I just regret that we didn't find his problem sooner - although I suspect the outcome would have been the same. IMO there are far too many horses stuck in fields in varying degrees of pain and I couldn't let a 6 yr old add to that number.

I hope that whatever you decide it all goes well.
 
Unfortunately retirement isn't an option as he doesn't have the right mental attitude, he likes to be in work. I think he would be miserable and is obviously in pain and is quite aggresive because of it - lots of teeth and feet. I have already explored other avenues, he had 8 weeks off ridden work and was worked only on the pessoa. I had a saddle made for him and had lessons with a very good instructor with lots of work long and low. He loves his work so much that he has never tried to buck me off but can now no longer canter on either rein. Unfortunately there isn't any space between the processes which means that he cannot have steroid injections which leaves me with PTS or surgery.
 
Spirit is also very well bred his grand sire was Master Spiritus and he also is supposed to be my horse of a lifetime. Ive had similar problems to barneyhunter getting a diagnosis, vets have given me all sorts of reasons and several cases of misdiagnosis. I eventually took him to Svend Kold at Willesley who said that he was a very unusual case as all the processes have molded into the same shape and fit perfectly with the next which means no gaps at all. I have been told that there is a 75% chance of a return to full work but after trolling through google I it doesn't seem to fit.
 
classicalfan said:
Please think seriously before putting your boy through this sort of surgery. It is a long recovery period and in our experinece the results are never truly satisfactory. 11 vertebrae is an awful lot.

Some horses respond well to physio and a change of riding style. Others can enjoy a pain free retirement without the need for surgery.

I have given you my contact details in your mail box.
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Please dont listen to this, KS surgery is a 3 month recovery before being able to ride, there are many, many successful ops and I am one of them. I know there are a lot of other people on here who would agree. The surgery is 30mins and some are even done under standing sedation.
Even with ligament problems there can be a good recovery, my horse has just come back from his check up today, he looks and moves like a different horse, he is fit and happy. He has some more recovery to do but I will be riding him shortly. There is a lot which can be done. Pauline on here rehabbed her horse from suspensory ligament tear the size of a golf ball and is now back doing endurance. Svend is my vet, he did my surgery and if he is saying there is a chance then believe him.
I would however be concerned at the amount of processes that need removing.
 
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Where is he going for his surgery? Try not to worry, although that is a severe KS, i attended a KS seminar with a leading surgen in this area and some of the surgeys he talked about were worse and the horse came back to full work and competing. They are usally on box rest for 6 weeks then start pessoa work, and alot of it before riding again. Better to get it done now so hes back in action for the summer. What have your vets said about his chances of a full recovery?
 
I really do feel for you, my TB had 9 and was operated on last July, even the vets didn't think the op would be sucessful. Everyone said I was mad to put him through the op, that he would never be rideable.

He had about 2 months box rest with twice daily walks in-hand, then we started lunging and longreining, I have the blessing of a horsewalker.
I sat on him after four months, he has had other complications (not due to KS) but is now back in normal work and even jumping again.

Don't give up hope, it's a long road to recovery and there are no guarantees but there is a chance.
 
The pessoa work is 6 weeks. You will get very comprehensive instructions about how to do it from Svend and my boys topline is fantastic after 5 weeks.
 
I have another success story mine had 5 very close together right under the saddle and was diagnoses at 7yrs old. My horse was very nice on the ground but always felt like he was going to explode so we went fot the surgery as for 5 weeks with the trial injection I would have thought someone swapped him. We got back to ridden jumping again in the autumn of last year. We had to spend a lot of time getting his balance but I think that was more due to the fact that prior to surgery it was always 1 step forward then a few back.
 
Mine is another success story, my horse was diagnosed after losing a hell of a lot of weight ans refusing to jump. She went through surgery, only 2 vertebrae but same procedure. We are now a year and a half on after 3 months unridden work she is a happier horse and keen to please in all areas. She is jumping 3 ft and loving it. Wouldn't have consider PTS and so pleased she has turned into a star.
 
i had a 12yo hunter PTS a few years ago, rather than surgery, i was given a 70% likelihood he would return to some sort of work, but as he was an all or nothing horse, i made the decision to have him PTS, he lived for his work, & well before he started having problems was never a straightforward horse, so i decided i couldn't put him through all the rehab if he never returned to hunting/team chasing ( as much as he was fantastic before he went wrong, he wasn't a quiet/sane/sensible horse & my vet advised me that it would be better to call it a day)

occasionally i wonder what if.... but TBH he'd have hated the rehab, hated staying at home when other horses went out & personally i think there is a big difference recovering enough to do lightish work & recovering enough to jump the kind of things he used to jump, but what eer you do, its a tough decision, and if you decide not to have the surgery done, its not the wrong thing to do if you think it's right for your horse, only you know that!
 
Svend is one of the best guys in the business - if he says it should be fine,then its as certain as its possible to be without a crystal ball...

and its unlikely to be 11 dsps that are removed - usually only alternate ones are taken,so your horse might only lose the tops of 5, which while still a lot (mine would need 4 taken out if I ever decide to do it to her) is completely do-able.

good luck with whatever you decide :)
 
Thank you for all your thoughts and experiences. I have decided to go ahead with the surgery as I would always ask myself 'what if' if I don't. Spirit went up to Gloucester this morning and is now prepped and ready for surgery tomorrow morning. He will have 5 Dorsal Processes removed. I'm still really worried but I have to give my boy a chance. I am confident that he will cope post op as he is used to being stabled as our last yard didn't have turnout and I use a Pessoa with him twice a week already. This may be a stupid question, but, do I need a particular sort of saddle post op? I don't want to spend all this time hopefully getting him back to the stage that I can ride and then ruin everyhthing with the wrong saddle.
 
islandspirit said:
Unfortunately retirement isn't an option as he doesn't have the right mental attitude, he likes to be in work. I think he would be miserable and is obviously in pain and is quite aggresive because of it - lots of teeth and feet. I have already explored other avenues, he had 8 weeks off ridden work and was worked only on the pessoa. I had a saddle made for him and had lessons with a very good instructor with lots of work long and low. He loves his work so much that he has never tried to buck me off but can now no longer canter on either rein. Unfortunately there isn't any space between the processes which means that he cannot have steroid injections which leaves me with PTS or surgery.
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What prognosis has the surgeon given for a full recovery??
 
The big day has arrived and I haven't slept a wink! I should hear how the surgery has gone by lunchtime and will keep you posted. I've been given a 75% chance of Spirit returning to competition which I think are good enough odds to give him a chance. I shall be busy this evening changing his bedding at home as he is currently on aquamax but I have been recommended to bed him on shavings post op to limit wound contamination. This will also give me an opportunity to lift his rubber matting and disinfect the floor.
 
Hi, Im sure it all went fine. The wound is covered for some time after surgery and a rug needs to be worn so bedding shouldnt be an issue my boy remained in his normal straw bed and his wound was clean as a whistle. You are unlikely to need anything other than a normal saddle, there may be a few dips but it shouldnt affect fit to the extent you need anything special. There is no reason for a horse not to return to its previous work after KS surgery, the problem is whether there is damage anywhere else, ie the ligaments etc. Removing the processes themselves make the horse better able to work if successful. xx;)
 
The surgery went very well, and Spirit seems to be improving every day, thank goodness. I have started a blog about kissing spines following Spirits Op, recovery and rehabilitation as there is a distinct lack of information out there. Please take a look, and add your comments to, it would be nice to think we could help another horse owner who is faced with the decision or not to operate. http://kissingspines.blogspot.com/
 
My mare ( See photos in post below this, Life after Kissing spine op) had the operation 6 months ago (Spetember 2010 ) 4 pieces of bone removed and suffered an unfortunate nasty infection after due to a reaction to the internal stitches.


In a nutshell , she had an initial period of box rest with daily turnout 2 x per day in small strip. Then into restricted turnout for what should have been 4 weeks, but my mare had other ideas and jumped back into her own paddock after 2 weeks! So I turned her back out in her big paddock. I started lunging her in January and am now back on board and hacking her out
( March)

I didn't have to do any intensive re-hab and left her to recover at her own speed with daily care of in at night and out during the day. 2 physio sessions to check all going well and I have now been told that all things considered, she's in excellent condition and that I can start to up her work. :-)

IMO only people who have put their horses through this kind of operation can offer sensible advice. Like everything, for some it works and others it doesn't and both my physio and vet said that a good recovery is dependent on Kissing spine being the only problem, ie not related to hind leg problems or pelvis etc.

I couldn't be happier with my mare and she is testimony to a succesful outcome. PM me if I can help you further.
 
I would just like to add in a slightly miffed tone that many many people seem to be happy to spread doom and gloom about this kind of condition but when I put piccys and a small post recently about how pleased I was that my mare was back in work I got very few replies.

Sometimes it would be nice for people to offer a few words of praise. Maybe I should learn to phrase my headings a bit more dramatically as they seem to be the ones that grab the attention............winge over!
 
Thank you TicTac, I agree, I seem to have found more doom and gloom on here than positive end results which is why I started a blog about Spirit. I will do everything I can to bring him back into full work and felt that if I shared the whole experience, people faced with the same decision to op or not might find it useful. On a positive note, today I groomed Spirit and for the first time ever he didn't try to kill me and he is much more interested in me. The walking in hand is becoming interesting though, he obviously feels better and has eyes on stalks at everything and I received my bill to date this morning, which was scary! So far, I am pleased that I decided to go for the op, a few friends, were quite against the idea which is why I posted in the first place and I totally agree that the best person to ask for advice is someone who has been through the same thing. It's lovely to hear that, so far, you are having great results and are back on board, I for one would love to be kept updated as to your progress.
 
Don't listen to the people that say plainly no and that it doesn't work and is hopeless. Every case is individual and depending on the problema and the horse how it will go afterwards. I have seen plenty of these carried out with horses standing in stocks.... It isn't the same as human spinal surgery...the dorsal spinous processes are rather large and although obviously there is a risk with any surgery let alone around the spine, I havent seen any that have had complications due to close proximity to the spinal cord or anything. Recovery takes time, effort and patience but at the end of it you may have your horse back and ready to ride without the aggression.

Trust your vets...they are the ones that have met and assessed your horse personally.
 
Thank you for the encouragement everyone. Does anyone have any advice on staying alive whilst walking in hand? Spirit has been on box rest since before Christmas due to my previous vet misdiagnosing him with Bone Spavin in both hocks, arthritis of the right stifle and higher suspensory desmitis of the right hind. After a total of 6 steroid injections and some dubious advice about shock wave therapy I changed vets and hey presto, on his first visit the new vet told me Spirit had a back problem and referred me to Sven at Willesley. The awful thing is that on re x ray (because the originals were too poor quality and not clear), there is no bone spavin or arthritis. Spirit had been great during the pre op box rest but I realise now that this was because he was still in pain and now that he's feeling better he's like a 2 year old. What do you think about calmers: do they work? And, if so, which is the best?
 
islandspirit said:
. Does anyone have any advice on staying alive whilst walking in hand?
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I did my "walking in hand" in a sand school, using 2 lunge lines to lunge/long-rein him, as that kept us at a slightly safer distance from each other, & enabled me to exert at least some control!!!! .....but do wear gloves/hat to do so.....!

He came back to eventing approx 9 mths after surgery, & was fine until he injured a frontleg a year later.......some horses seem to love to find different problems for us each time!!! His back has never given him any more trouble.
 
I glad you decided to get the surgery. My horse had the op June 2009. Despite what people say on here several vets have told me that the prognosis is good. Once the bones with a rubbing together are removed there is nothing there, although with all big surgery there is a risk.

My horse has 2 weeks solid box rest, then walking out in hand for 5 minutes a twice a day building up after 4 weeks to 30 min twice a day. Then I started long reining, and lunging in a chambon building it up slowly. After 6 weeks we began ridden work starting at 10 mins building up to 1 hour a day then introduced trot work. He started gentle canters in November 09. The vets told me that the ligaments and muscles need built up after the op so solid box rest for ages will not help, but gentle exercise to strengthen the back, so once the wound etc is healed lunging in a chambon or pessoa is useful.
In March we went for our first SJ comp post op, starting with the small classes. We came home with 2 2nds and a 3rd! He is a different horse! He was barely rideable.
We started BE eventing in June 2010, nearly a year after the op....
Here is a pic...
http://johngracing.thirdlight.com/viewpicturepreview.tlx?z=1&albumid=273028&pictureid=12842400
We got 5th in our first ever BE event. This was the first time he had been round a full xc course!
I now have an event horse which I could never afford to buy!
Good luck with your horse.
p.s I found the Equilibrium Magnetic back pad and massage back pad very useful
 
I put my horse through this surgery - he had 3 processes removed. I didn't have a successful outcome.

In your situation though I think I would probably try the surgery as a last attempt - I think....

Also another aspect you need to think about (harsh but true) is if your horse is insured.... If you just PTS you will not get your money for value - you need to try every avenue before they will pay out and PTS needs to be done as a last resort on welfare grounds as reccommended by a vet.

It depends how much you need your insurance pay out for your horses value
 
dominobrown said:
I glad you decided to get the surgery. My horse had the op June 2009. Despite what people say on here several vets have told me that the prognosis is good. Once the bones with a rubbing together are removed there is nothing there, although with all big surgery there is a risk.

My horse has 2 weeks solid box rest, then walking out in hand for 5 minutes a twice a day building up after 4 weeks to 30 min twice a day. Then I started long reining, and lunging in a chambon building it up slowly. After 6 weeks we began ridden work starting at 10 mins building up to 1 hour a day then introduced trot work. He started gentle canters in November 09. The vets told me that the ligaments and muscles need built up after the op so solid box rest for ages will not help, but gentle exercise to strengthen the back, so once the wound etc is healed lunging in a chambon or pessoa is useful.
In March we went for our first SJ comp post op, starting with the small classes. We came home with 2 2nds and a 3rd! He is a different horse! He was barely rideable.
We started BE eventing in June 2010, nearly a year after the op....
Here is a pic...
http://johngracing.thirdlight.com/viewpicturepreview.tlx?z=1&albumid=273028&pictureid=12842400
We got 5th in our first ever BE event. This was the first time he had been round a full xc course!
I now have an event horse which I could never afford to buy!
Good luck with your horse.
p.s I found the Equilibrium Magnetic back pad and massage back pad very useful
Click to expand...

Thank you for the advice, your horse looks fantastic now, congratulations! Can I ask how old he is? And, how many processes he had removed? I think I may have been slightly naive as I hadn't realised that the ridden work would take so long to build up, I only hope I can keep spirit sane for that amount of time. He's a big boy, 17hh thoroughbred and he has a tendancy to need to go for a blast every so ofen to blow the cobwebs out and keep him manageable.
 
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