Kissing Spine Surgery - Getting Worried!

Laura1812 said:
I put my horse through this surgery - he had 3 processes removed. I didn't have a successful outcome.

In your situation though I think I would probably try the surgery as a last attempt - I think....

Also another aspect you need to think about (harsh but true) is if your horse is insured.... If you just PTS you will not get your money for value - you need to try every avenue before they will pay out and PTS needs to be done as a last resort on welfare grounds as reccommended by a vet.

It depends how much you need your insurance pay out for your horses value
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I'm so sorry to hear that you didn't have a successful outcome to the surgery. I don't want to be rude or pry but could I ask what went wrong? What symptoms did he have beforehand which led to the diagnosis of kissing spines? Did you follow a rehab programme post surgery? All in all, Spirit seems to be happier now that he has had the surgery so at least the pain has reduced, I now just have to hope and prey that he will return to full performance.
 
I think he was damaged possibly during either knockdown or recovery. He developed significant atrophy post surgery over his quarters, lost all power and muscle in his lumbar region and his pelvis started clunking. He could not tolerate a saddle.

I followed a strict 12 week pessoa regime post surgery as advised by the surgeon, all to no avail. He is now retired aged just 10.

Symptoms that led to diagnosis were an inability to bascule over a fence and dropping his back away from the saddle occasionally. He never bucked or got nasty.

Fingers crossed for your boy - im pleased to hear he has gone through the surgery ok :)
 
My mare had her operation standing in stocks and under heavy sedation ( the back was then thoroughly anaesthetised ) This seems to be the ' modern' way if doing this operation with a more positive outcome as it involves less trauma and swelling etc I probably would have not considered the op otherwise.
 
My horse had the op lying down, it didnt cause any more problems than standing, no 'trauma' nor swelling, they are up in 20mins.

Island spirit, I would really recommend calmers, ask for Potassium Bromide and use it until you are in regular work, I also used a sedative for the first 4 days of turnout.
 
Spirits op was lying down and took an hour and three quarters to complete, he had T12, T14, T16, T18 and L2 removed, you can see a picture of the stitches on my blog (I Think there's a link in one of my earlier posts), they are very neat and have healed beautifully. No swelling at all. His stitches are due out later today which is great as you can see that they are starting to pull now and I think he will be more comfortable after removal. The walking in hand has calmed down a little as I've started walking round the school rather than a route around the yard, I think he feels safer in there for some reason and relaxes rather than looking for the next clump of daffodils to spook at! I've got him on Magnitude calmer at the moment which was recommended by one of the other liveries. I haven't used a calmer before, so am not that up to speed with them. Now, if it was a joint supplement, I've used nearly all of them, and it would be a completely different matter! I am definitely going to request some sedalin for the first few days turn out though. When the pessoaing starts, how many times a day did everyone lunge, and how long did you start off with and build up to time wise?
 
Svend does all his ops lying down, it doesnt seem to cause problems.We started the lunging at 10mins at walk. We just kept adding more each week until we were up to 30mins then added poles and canter. It is best not to try to push things too fast. I gave up on the pessoa, it worked Ok for the first few weeks but used side reins once we upped the work.There are good days and bad. Svend is my normal vet so we have the luxury of all our checkups and ongoing treatment from him directly, I call him loads for advice or to talk something over.
Potassium Bromide seems very gentle, just takes the excitable edge off but doesnt dope them, recommend for any road work.
 
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I read a lot of the comments on here with dismay and agree that you can only really understand this once you have been through the surgery, so I would take advice from those that are informed (no offence intended!). Svend operated on my horse 5yrs ago this April, he was behaviourally so difficult, he becamer completely dangerous and the recommendation was that unless he had surgery he should be PTS. We knew he was a lovely person underneath the pain so took the decision to give him a chance.

He has gone from an unrideable, unmanageable nightmare, to a fantastic little horse where every physio that has ever checked him is gobsmacked he has had KS surgery. He is now competing novice and working towards elementary dressage, not bad for a horse that couldn't move his back legs like a horse and paddled like a cow even in walk pre-op.

The rehab is key, take your time to build basic core strength with long and low muscle building work - my horse has never looked back, it has taken a long time to get him over the mental impact of being in so much pain but because we have concentrated so thoroughtly on correct schooling, my instructor is fully expecting him to still be working and going out and about well into his 20's!

Well done for giving your horse a chance, I have a feeling he may surprise you with the outcome!

Beth
 
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Yay, the stitches are out. Everyone is being so helpful and positive, it really has given me the mental boost I needed, thank you. I can't believe how different Spirit is already. It's so soon after the surgery but he now crosses his back legs when we turn to get back into the stable after our walks, before the op he sort of shuffled them like a crab! And, as he came round from the sedative, he was nuzzling me! can't believe it, he hasn't nuzzled me for a good couple of years!
 
Here's my mare. she had her op last september to remove 4 pieces of bone.

Stridingout.jpg


TT4.jpg
 
Lovely pictures TicTac, it's lovely to see a success story. A friend came over to see me and Spirit last night as she has a 2 year old mare that has suspected kissing spines shes been turned away in a herd to finish growing. My friend had also been very worried about the possibility of the op after coming on the H&H forum but after seeing Spirit and having a chat feels much better about the op, should it become necessary. We should keep the thread going for as long as we can, to help others out there. And I'd love to see other pictures of post op horses, like TicTacs.
 
My friends horse has gone through KS surgery so second hand but he seems to be making really good progress, even if the actual op was a tad hair raising I understand. My friend wasn't helped by the fact that we had the heavy snow just when he was supposed to be starting to work again so she was reduced to walking him in the barn in hand when it was quiet!. However, he is now finally back in ridden work and fittening up, still turned out solo for his mooch and is much much nicer under saddle. My friend made the decision to go for the surgery as he is one of the nicest horses in the yard so felt he would cope better than most with the recovery. Have to say I was not keen on looking at the stitches though when he came home!
 
islandspirit said:
Thank you for the advice, your horse looks fantastic now, congratulations! Can I ask how old he is? And, how many processes he had removed? I think I may have been slightly naive as I hadn't realised that the ridden work would take so long to build up, I only hope I can keep spirit sane for that amount of time. He's a big boy, 17hh thoroughbred and he has a tendancy to need to go for a blast every so ofen to blow the cobwebs out and keep him manageable.
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Sorry to just back to you now.. He is 11 now, 9 when he had the op.He is also 16.3hh TB. He has 3 removed.
He has since done everything since the op. He was even the hunt horse at the point to point and impressed a lot a people! He was so sensible, which just isn't like him! (Well it is now). Better than the masters horse, and I could of sold him then and there. Glad to her your horse is going well. Can't wait to see the first ridden pictures!
 
Spirit is still doing well and the walking in hand has started to get easier, I think, because it is becoming routine. I've been thinking about getting my back lady out and doing carrot stretches to help keep him flexible. When would be the right time to start? I don't want to overdo things but have been reading a book lent to me by a friend called ' How to activate your horses core' and can really see the benefits of the stretches to start building some topline and abdominal muscles especially as it encourages movement of the spine in all directions.
 
Please don't PTS. My horse had kissing spine and many other physical problems. I did go for surgery but wish I hadn't as this just caused more problems and 25K later and two years on the VETS suggested PTS or retirement .
However after researching other options I came across Michael Peace, after 2 weeks at Michaels yard he's like a different horse. I only wish I did this sooner and saved the poor boy the pain and emotional trauma of surgery.
 
donald. said:
Please don't PTS. My horse had kissing spine and many other physical problems. I did go for surgery but wish I hadn't as this just caused more problems and 25K later and two years on the VETS suggested PTS or retirement .
However after researching other options I came across Michael Peace, after 2 weeks at Michaels yard he's like a different horse. I only wish I did this sooner and saved the poor boy the pain and emotional trauma of surgery.
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I haven't put to sleep, and decided to go for the op. What other problems did your horse have? And how has Michael Peace helped? I'm very intrigued!:)
 
TicTac said:
How is your horse doing at the moment islandspirit? x
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He's doing really well, thank you. The walking in hand is much better than I thought it would be, he's very calm and seems to be enjoying it. He can now cross his back legs when walked in a tight circle which has only got to be a good thing. I've got two more weeks of box rest with walking in hand and then he can be turned out, all be it on a postage stamp! He is also a much nicer horse to be around, I don't think he's ever going to be the cuddliest of horses but he is definitely not as ready to lash out and much more interested in the goings on at the yard. The only downside is that his back in profile undulates which is taking some getting used to and I'm not sure if it will improve with time. How's your horse? Are you still going in the right direction? At what point did you know that the op had worked? I'm guessing that I will have to wait until I get back on! My saddler is booked for the 8Th of June, so I guess that's the day I will know for sure.
 
My mum's horse had the operation 3 months ago and she got the all clear to be ridden last week. If you have the time / money to pay someone else to do all of the aftercare then I would go for it, it is so easily treated and most horses go back to ridden work at the same or a higher level :)
 
In hindsight a Rehab yard would have been very useful! I'm a week away from turning out and the walking in hand has become a nightmare. I tried using sedalin for 4 days and on the fourth he had a bought of colic an hour after we gave him the sedalin. First time I've had to deal with colic and it was not easy trying to keep a mildly sedated horse from doing damage to himself.
 
I would like to say a big thank you for this forum, and particularly to Island Spirit, Tictac and Mozlar. My daughter's lovely KWPN mare has just been diagnosed with KS (only 2 vetebrae, thankfully) and it has been so helpful to read this, (and your blog, Island Spirit). We are not so downhearted as we were a few days ago. We are v. lucky in that our vet is Willesley. For the moment we have gone for the steroid injections, but with all we have read, are feeling much more positive about the idea of surgery. My daughter's mare has not a nasty bone in her body and has never done anything more than an occasional stop, and it was only after stepping up her work as the season began that we realised she was in pain. (Actually, it was our brilliant instructor, Pat, who came over to see her a few days after a BE event when we had gone away, who saw she wasn't right.)
The next decision is when is the best time to have the surgery? She had the steroid injections just a few days ago - are they likely to make her comfortable enough to allow her to work normally for a while? Could we get through the summer and then have the surgery? (There's Pony Club Camp, Area competitions etc.) Or would it be better to just bite the bullet and do it sooner rather than later? My daughter is 16 and had her summer planned with PC activities plus BE eventing. Any advice would be very welcome
 
annielade said:
I would like to say a big thank you for this forum, and particularly to Island Spirit, Tictac and Mozlar. My daughter's lovely KWPN mare has just been diagnosed with KS (only 2 vetebrae, thankfully) and it has been so helpful to read this, (and your blog, Island Spirit). We are not so downhearted as we were a few days ago. We are v. lucky in that our vet is Willesley. For the moment we have gone for the steroid injections, but with all we have read, are feeling much more positive about the idea of surgery. My daughter's mare has not a nasty bone in her body and has never done anything more than an occasional stop, and it was only after stepping up her work as the season began that we realised she was in pain. (Actually, it was our brilliant instructor, Pat, who came over to see her a few days after a BE event when we had gone away, who saw she wasn't right.)
The next decision is when is the best time to have the surgery? She had the steroid injections just a few days ago - are they likely to make her comfortable enough to allow her to work normally for a while? Could we get through the summer and then have the surgery? (There's Pony Club Camp, Area competitions etc.) Or would it be better to just bite the bullet and do it sooner rather than later? My daughter is 16 and had her summer planned with PC activities plus BE eventing. Any advice would be very welcome
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Hello Annielade, thank you for your kind words, I started the thread and blog out of a mixture of panic, lack of knowledge, a need for reassurance and wanting to help other people in the same position as me. I'd found a whole host of negative information out there on the interweb and was so relieved to find some great support on the H&H forum.
I'm so sorry to hear that your daughters mare has been diagnosed with kissing spines, the good news though is that there is a good success rate with the op and although no one wants to be in our position, and the rehab is hard work, it is not the end of the world. You are also lucky to have the best KS surgeon in the country to perform the op who I have bombarded with questions and phone calls and is always on hand for advice.
I am probably not the best person to advise as and when to go ahead with the op as I didn't have a choice, it was op or PTS. My decision wasn't easy but as I only had the 2 choices it was less complicated. The only thing I would say is that the rehab is time consuming even though Spirit is on full livery and I would advise a rehab yard (I dream of a horse walker at the moment) or to have the op during the lighter months. The walking in hand is bad enough when you can walk in daylight but can you imagine the spooks you would have to manage in the dark!:) And turning out in muddy fields means constantly hosing down and the possibility of slipping.
All told, March was a good time for the op, it was just before the clock change, not to hot, not to cold and I shall hopefully be back on board by mid June to start fittening and hill work before the winter closes in on us.
I really hope everything goes well for you, please keep us up to date, I would love to hear how your getting on.
 
Hi - I think it also depends on your insurance company to be honest. It's not a cheap operation with all the rehab that goes into it afterwards. My mare's injections wore off after about 6 weeks which was when we decided to go for surgery.

You only have 12 months usually from diagnosis to end of payments - so make sure you don't stick with injections so long that you run out of time for the surgery and the physion afterwards. That was what decided us to go for surgery after 1 set of injections to be honest. We managed to get it all paid for except the last physio visit within 12 months of initial diagnosis.

I understand you duaghter's dilemma though, so it might be worth sitting down and working out time scales. I have to say that my daughter had one of the best Pony Club summers of her life while our mare was off work due to the op. We took on a 4 year old just backed 13.3 pony for her to play with over the summer and they had a blast - ended up doing Gosling Cup and passing her B test on her. So although your summer might not be quite what was planned, in my experience opportunities often present themselves at just the right time. (I have to say that B test examiner was most impressed with daughter's knowledge of horse rehab.......!!!!).
 
Hey their, just wanted to say i have just read this whole thread and your blog and found it so interesting. I'v never had personal experience of kissing spines but my previous instructor i remember her buying 2 well bred youngsters and the one that she had the most high hopes for started behaving very badly when she tried to back him, it was just literally impossible and very dangerous, his temperament was awful to and she eventually got a diagnosis of kissing spines. He had the op (not sure how bad it was.) and now he is a very succesfull dressage horse in fact he's her top horse at the moment competing at prix st georges level. Best of luck with Spirit and i hope he continues to heal well and go on with his career again..x
 
Frube said:
Hey their, just wanted to say i have just read this whole thread and your blog and found it so interesting. I'v never had personal experience of kissing spines but my previous instructor i remember her buying 2 well bred youngsters and the one that she had the most high hopes for started behaving very badly when she tried to back him, it was just literally impossible and very dangerous, his temperament was awful to and she eventually got a diagnosis of kissing spines. He had the op (not sure how bad it was.) and now he is a very succesfull dressage horse in fact he's her top horse at the moment competing at prix st georges level. Best of luck with Spirit and i hope he continues to heal well and go on with his career again..x
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Hi Frube

Thank you for your post, I wonder if you could help Tallulahbright with her worries at the moment? She has a thread about her unbacked three year old with KS in the Veterinary Forum as well but hasn't had any replies and is obviously worried. I haven't posted as I don't have any experience of KS in youngsters but I'm sure she'd appreciate some feedback.

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=449479
 
annielade said:
I would like to say a big thank you for this forum, and particularly to Island Spirit, Tictac and Mozlar. My daughter's lovely KWPN mare has just been diagnosed with KS (only 2 vetebrae, thankfully) and it has been so helpful to read this, (and your blog, Island Spirit). We are not so downhearted as we were a few days ago. We are v. lucky in that our vet is Willesley. For the moment we have gone for the steroid injections, but with all we have read, are feeling much more positive about the idea of surgery. My daughter's mare has not a nasty bone in her body and has never done anything more than an occasional stop, and it was only after stepping up her work as the season began that we realised she was in pain. (Actually, it was our brilliant instructor, Pat, who came over to see her a few days after a BE event when we had gone away, who saw she wasn't right.)
The next decision is when is the best time to have the surgery? She had the steroid injections just a few days ago - are they likely to make her comfortable enough to allow her to work normally for a while? Could we get through the summer and then have the surgery? (There's Pony Club Camp, Area competitions etc.) Or would it be better to just bite the bullet and do it sooner rather than later? My daughter is 16 and had her summer planned with PC activities plus BE eventing. Any advice would be very welcome
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You're very welcome :-) My mare was diagnosed last may and she had the jabs but they didn;t work. I chose to wait and have her op at the end of the summer when the weather was not too hot so she had her op 31st august. after her few weeks of box rest and very small turnout out 2 x per day ( didn't have to do walking, different vet and different programe) she went out all day into restricted turnout. That only lasted 2 weeks as she got fed up and jumped back into her big field!! ( aarrrgh ) So, I turned her out into her paddock and she was fine as there was plenty of grass. By now it was nearly end of october. She went out in the field every day through the winter and came in at night. I started lunging her mid jan when all the snow and ice had gone and I am hacking her out now. She is absolutely fine. My re-hab was no where near as intensive as some have had to put their horses through, It wouldn't have worked for my mare ( or me lol) and the field rest she had seemed the best option for her.

Good luck with whatever you decided to do with your horse and rest assured, you will have plenty of people able to help you through any mini crisis that may or may not arrise!!!
 
Thank you for all your messages, which have all been helpful. We are very much veering towards the op, although will give the steroid injections a chance for a few more weeks. We are lucky in that our mare is in a livery yard 5 mins walk from home, and there is a large indoor school, a horse walker, and good hacking, so everything we need for the rehab. Still deciding on best timescale, though, and all your thoughts on that have been v. helpful. We went to try a possible loan today, and liked her enough to say yes, please - and are just waiting to hear if owner is happy with us having her. It means my daughter will have something to ride over the summer, and we can take our time with the rehab, there will be no pressure to rush things.
Was really interesting to hear the different take on rehab from Tictac - will definitely discuss different options with the vet.
Will let you know how we get on. Thanks again for all the input.
 
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