kissing spine / TB Mare / Please help us

[km001]

After trauling the internet and previous H&H forums I have decided to register and post about my horse in sheer desperation.

I have an 7 year old TB mare who I rescued from slaughter. We bred her, sold her as a 2yo, found her 4 years later going to slaughter. Bought her back.

Brought her home, fed her up, backed her. Initially very loving horse - no different to when we sold her 4 years ago.

As education progressed, noticed she was reluctant to go forward, bunny hops in canter (particuarly right rein) rears (on lunge) cow kicks, worse in menage than on grass.

Vet diagnosed with Kissing Spine - xray confirms etc. Had cortizone injections, appeared to work then wore off. 3 months ago she tore her front suspensory. ANOTHER issue. Box rest and inhand walking. Appears to be doing rather well (probably going to regret saying that!)

Have booked KS surgery in for December. However, she is getting more and more unmanageable. She has started rearing at the drop of a hat, very flighty, can be walking calm on lunge one minute then galloping for her life the next, everything is a big deal! She has taken to rearing quite badly, to the point of nearly going over...even when she is in the field and I'm nowhere near her. I've cut her food down loads as thought she was being like this as being over fed (paranoid about her loosing weight). Doesnt have appeared to make much difference.

I have another TB mare who, yes is joggy and excitable but not dangerous. I am worried that if I ever end up back on board she will end up killing me/herself. Is this her behaviour generally or because of her KS? She is so sweet one minute and then the next she is seriously a nutcase. I have asked for a calmer from the vet as I truly want to keep her, she is stunning and she dotes on me. However, I don't know whether I am just clutching at straws.

KIND advice only please. I am genuinely asking for advice as this has been going on for 10months now and I am devestated.

 

[kezimac]

i would say you wont know til she has had the operation and is no longer in pain. It could be she will be completely different or it could be that it will be a learned behaviour.

Mine has 8 impinging processes and is going to have her op on tuesday, she has never once bucked, reared or done anything to make me worry about riding her safely. whether she will return to dressage i dont know.

I think you need to get her through the op and just see. Sorry its not much help, but you need to give her the chance. Which vets are you under and what have they said about behaviour

 

[Bubbles]

You poor thing. What was her temperament like after the steroids in her back? You said it seemed to work, was your vet happy with the improvement?

 

[BabyA]

Hi,
I had a mare for 3 months, got her out of the stable one morning and she was lame. You could hear her foot steps were uneven. A couple of days of pain killers the vets referred her to the royal vet college.

I'm cutting a very long story short...... She was rated at a 4 they grade from 1-5. Have they graded your mare? After numerous tests including injecting her spine with radioactive liquid they found that the main problem area was at the bottom of her neck. If I'd of decided to go for surgery they said the main problem is after the op the horse lifts its neck to get up and breaks what they've done so didn't recommend operating because of where the fusing was.

During the time of her stay at the royal vet college I looked back at some home CCTV footage and I saw her canter around the field and just fall over. I then realised how unsafe she would be, I knew she'd never be ridden again but hoped to keep her as a companion, she was such a sweet mare. I mentioned this to the vets who convinced me that if I kept her alive the falling over etc would only get worse and the whole situation would be worse if say she fell over on someone unlikely I know, or broke a leg etc.

The surgeon and vet recommended putting her to sleep so sadly she never came home from the royal vet college but they I'd carry out an autopsie and what didn't come up with all the tests that they had carried out was that it was all the way down her spine so if they had of operated it would have been a waste of time. So I could have spent 5,000 on a op that wouldn't have cured her. Insurance companies won't cover it.

Remember she is probably rearing because she is in pain which means anything could happen if you rode, which I think you'd be mad to do for her and you're own safety.

You need a professional opinion from a specialist not just your vet but you'll pay for it! I'd want her graded on how bad she is as I know of a horse that's graded at 2 who is ridden without problem.

I hope you have a better out come than I did, if you have any questions about it feel free to ask as like I've said I've cut a very long story short!!

 

[Rebels]

You have just described my friends 5yr old tb mare before her KS surgery. She was a sweet, gentle horse but would then explode, go up to the point of going over on the road, would rear in the field and spin round on her hinds, rear in hand then stand shaking and distressed. Generally very uptight. She took her out of racing to retrain and was progressing well until this happened. After the op the change was incredible, the horse was so chilled and happy, hasnt been up since and it was only 1 impinging directly under saddle. The change showed how much pain she must have felt, if that hadnt worked she would have had to be PTS as so dangerous. Id be very excited if i were you.

 

[Rebels]

PM if you wanted a better description of her, I've been helping her reschool it.

 

[km001]

Thank you everyone for replying..first time I have done this! I quite like it!!

This really bad behaviour has been more recent...now thinking about it...she was quite good whilst on injections....that is food for thought! Didnt actually think about that.

She is so up and down, on Tuesday I walked her in hand (because of suspensory) and she was good as gold and I thought 'thank God i didn't have her put down' and then today I just think having the operation would be throwing good money after bad (or whatever the saying is!) She is an absolute fruit loop.

I think the rearing is definately a learnt behaviour..she knows it frightens me..because these are not little rears..she almost topples over. But then she does it in the field when im not near her...so i was thinking perhaps she could be getting some sort of painr relief?!

I havent had her 'graded'....i could ask my vet about that.

the vets think im a bit mad because she now has 2 serious conditions...but I think I can't have her pts before giving her a chance? thats not fair.

I was riding her very lightly in August and could tell there was still something up. Her foot fall is definately wrong - i did mention this to the vet but they didnt really think anything of it.

It is physically and mentally draining. Every time she is good one day I see a glimmer of hope then she does something drastic the day after. I feel as though I am on a rollercoaster.

I wouldnt be able to keep her as field companion...she is exceedingly high maintenance...and I have 2 others as 'pets' one partially sighted and the other arthritic.

My insurance claim runs out in Feb so I need to make a decision. Hence the desperate plea on here!

 

[km001]

Rebels you have brought tears to my eyes. I really really hope you are right.

 

[BethH]

OK here goes - all horses deal with KS differently, some cope with immense pain well and for some just constant small niggles wears them down and causes the behaviour you describe. I can't tell you what she will be like post surgery, but I can tell you that her behaviour absolutely sounds like my horse who would have to have been PTS as too dangerous to handle without attempting the op, spooky is just not the word for how he behaved. We had the op because as you say with your mare, he was and still is the most delightful person and we had to give him the chance.

My horse Ryan was operated on 6yrs ago by Svend Kold at Willesley Equine in Gloucestershire, I am Kent based but felt he was the best and most experienced person at the time to carry out the surgery although there are now other methods perhaps worth investigating too. Svend did a fantastic job, Ryan is still ridden 5days a week, has started jumping and can do a creditable novice dressage test when he is in the mood, we had to rehab, reback and start from scratch teaching him to walk properly as his whole life he had paddled from the hip rather than pushing through his hocks! The biggest hurdle for us was dealing with his mental issues, it seems that he had genetic KS as I bought him as a just backed 4yr old and could tell there was something not quite right almost immediately, it took 2yrs to get him correctly diagnosed as he was bi-laterally lame so just looked a bit stiff and short behind. With KS the back continues to deteriorate over time which is why although I would love the palliative route to work it rarely seems to long term.

Physically he did amazingly after the op and was a poppet to get back on which was an utter relief as I was quite worried. His saviour was my learning to long rein properly which gave us a great bond when undertaking the rehab as he wouldn't tolerate the pessoa and spent the whole time doing handstands. He is still is busy in the head and concentration isn't his strong point, annoyingly so at times but he now can hack out alone something that would have been unheard pre-op and has become a not too bad all rounder (my biggest drawback is that he has a fair bit of connemara in him which makes him rather opinionated and stubborn!). He is an amazing success story given how tough he was to handle at times, now he is the amazing person we could see underneath the pain and I have no regrets about operating.

I wanted to post as there is so much negativity about KS and there is a lot of misinformation, clearly sometimes it isn't successful but I think quite often it is because there is another problem lurking. I operated on Ryan because he was young and had absolutely nothing else wrong which gave him a strong chance of a good recovery. You clearly love this mare and want to give her a chance so I want to wish you the very best of luck and to say if you have any question please ask, the rehab is the key and you need to move her forward without overdoing it, basic core muscle strengthening is the key and if you can try to do some of it pre-op it will help her. If you need any help I am happy for you to pm me and I hope you have a good outcome, it sounds as though both you and your mare deserve it.

 

[wench]

Well tbh if the insurance is going to pay for the op, and you don't have to fork out too much for it, get it done!

 

[km001]

Wench - I am covered but i have used up quite a bit already and excess is a lovely 17.5% so will be paying a lot of it myself

 

[km001]

Hi Beth,

Thank you for your comment- although i am now in fully blown tears!! lol. I am really pleased to hear about Ryan, it gives me such hope!

I hope we are as much as a success story as you guys are. My mare is young and underneath she does have a temperament to die for. Ever since she saw me at the dealers yard (going to slaughter in 7days time) she has doted on me- the look of sheer relief on her face, she knew she was coming home and back to her family. Yes, i love her to bits.

I have heard of Svend through my own research about KS...

You are right, there is a lot of negativity in regards to KS...the people at my yard think I need my head testing and she should be disposed of. I have also spoken to friends in the horsey world and they do that horrible sucking in of breath when i mention the dreaded KS...and say something like 'field companion'. But with the success stories I am hearing..I want to give her a chance.

I hope I can PM you in a couple of months time (Monday 17th December - operation day) with good news and perhaps get some long reining tips! Thank you for all your advice, encouragement and wishes.

 

[Rebels]

Op , i have either PM'd you severals or not at all, its messing around, let me know.

 

[Rebels]

Argh, several times!

 

[Bubbles]

Good luck Km, mine was operated on last Weds. So far so good, he's coped with it really well and is back home on 2 weeks box rest before I start handwalking.

 

[Rebels]

Argh, several times!

 

[BethH]

Daft as it sounds, it is that love for your mare that will hopefully get you through this. It is an emotional rollercoaster, very very tiring, but you will hopefully get to the stage where the rollercoaster becomes a merry go round!

IMHO I would say it is very normal for a KS horse to be very up and down in it's behaviour, the most scary thing about Ryan would be the way he would behave like an absolute schoolmaster and then 45mins in to a ride he would completely flip out. He used to be unbearable if he had to go downhill - I know now that it was impossible for him to use his back end properly so he would have panic attacks. He now strolls down steep hills in a straight line, pre op it would be like traversing down a mountain on very wobbly skis! I found a drop of Lincoln's valerian cordial in his feeds used to take the edge of Ryan's nerves, no other calmers touched the sides!

I have so much info on KS and I have helped quite a number of people so please do ask if you need to, also I don't know how long the archive is kept on HHO but I posted a huge amount about this when Ryan was diagnosed probably 2007 when the condition wasn't as well known. Have all my fingers crossed this turns out to be a good solution for you, give your mare a hug from me, she is very lucky to have you, ignore all the rubbish advice and follow your gut instinct, I have a feeling if you don't give your mare this chance you won't be able to live with yourself, but you know her best and will do the right thing for her whatever that is.

All crossed and please let us know how you get on

 

[km001]

So, update, the operation is this tuesday. 4 days time... Vet has asked me to reconsider due to her front DFT forming an adhesion therefore need to cut her check ligament to free up. She is lame in walk (better when she warms up). But not in trot.

Ideas now? Should i continue to go for surgery on KS and leg?

I really thought we were getting somewhere but now I am devestated (once again).

Thank you for your support.

 

[Goldenstar]

There's no way to dress this up except to say if she where my horse no I would not continue I am so sorry for you it's horrible situation .
Whatever you decide and only you can do that best wishes.

 

[Tammytoo]

KM before you do anything read a previous post KISSING SPINE - INTERSPINOUS LIGAMENT DESMOTOMY, I think its on page 4 now. This is a new much less invasive surgery carried out by Cotts Equine in Wales. It is done under standing sedation and involves cutting the ligaments between the spinal processes to free them, rather than the very invasive removal of the processes themselves under general anaesthetic. The recovery rate is much quicker and the price is about a quarter of the cost. I have e.mailed them for information regarding my own mare and they have been very helpful. I believe the vet who performs the surgery does travel to other practices to operate.

With regard to your mare's explosive behaviour, this is very typical of KS sufferers. I showed my mare in hand as a 3 y.o. and she would plod quietly round the arena, but if something spooked her or she turned suddenly the spinal processses would touch and she would explode or rear and then stand still trembling. I was told that it would feel like an electric shock.

There is more information on the Cotts website. There is also a facebook website started - I'll find out the name.

 

[Tammytoo]

Facebook Group is called Kissing Spine Discussion and Support Group

 

[Tonks]

Gosh how horrrible for you.

Do you have her booked in for a desmotomY. After speaking to Richard at Cotts Equine Practice, this appears to be the most effective treatment for KS. Please check it out?

Has she had an x ray and a bone scan?

In the meatime, try to make her as manageable as possible. I'm sure you know this.

Cut right down on feed (you can even get low calorie hay) maximise turnout with company, so that her engergy levels don't overide any handling.

Can you do any groundwork training/schooling with her?

Consult vet again in order to try to manage this difficult behaviour.

 

[km001]

Gosh how horrrible for you.

Do you have her booked in for a desmotomY. After speaking to Richard at Cotts Equine Practice, this appears to be the most effective treatment for KS. Please check it out?

Has she had an x ray and a bone scan?

In the meatime, try to make her as manageable as possible. I'm sure you know this.

Cut right down on feed (you can even get low calorie hay) maximise turnout with company, so that her engergy levels don't overide any handling.

Can you do any groundwork training/schooling with her?

Consult vet again in order to try to manage this difficult behaviour.

Tammy I can';t find the group on FB?

Ive got her on calmex which seems to quite effective. I am just really asking for adivce as to whether having torn her digital flexor tendon and KS is too big of a problem to put right?

I have got her booked in for the traditional surgery...

I'm limited on schooling due to her front leg DFT...although I try to do some in hand and lunging with her...

 

[Tammytoo]

Please think twice about the traditional surgery - it requires so much box rest and then daily lunging with a pessoa. If your vet has reservations about the surgery because of her other problem it really would be worth either talking to Cotts yourself or asking your vet to contact them.

I'm sorry you couldn't find the facebook page - if you look at the previous kissing spine post I mentioned I think I got the details from that.

I couldn't face putting my mare through the "traditional" surgery (was told 60% success rate) whereas the Cotts surgery has a really high success rate.

 

[km001]

Please think twice about the traditional surgery - it requires so much box rest and then daily lunging with a pessoa. If your vet has reservations about the surgery because of her other problem it really would be worth either talking to Cotts yourself or asking your vet to contact them.

I'm sorry you couldn't find the facebook page - if you look at the previous kissing spine post I mentioned I think I got the details from that.

I couldn't face putting my mare through "traditional" surgery (was told 60% success rate) whereas the Cotts surgery has a really high success rate.

I have just read up on it and it sounds great...4hrs 11mins away but hey ho! I am going to ask my vet and am going to ring cotts on monday. thank you so much

 

[kezimac]

Mine had her op at costs two weeks ago - she has now had stitches out and is starting small paddock turnout - been doing in hand walking from day one - I travelled 5.5 hrs to get there but so worth it - I went the day before due to travelling and came back the day after - good bed and breakfasts in the area!!!! - Richard was great and kept me up to date with info and I could see her on the afternoon of the op and took her for a walk, I didn't want the traditional route due to the box rest and the general anaesthetic - plus this is cheaper op (£1150) so ok on insurance.
If you look on the other thread about the op I have pics on there

 

[Tammytoo]

I have just read up on it and it sounds great...4hrs 11mins away but hey ho! I am going to ask my vet and am going to ring cotts on monday. thank you so much

Good luck and keep us posted!

 

[km001]

Spoke to the vet..they want her to have the traditional method...so went for that. She is due home Friday afternoon. Apparently surgery went well and she is ok. phew.
What are the plans now?
2 weeks box rest and then...?

 

[Nickles1973]

http://www.facebook.com/groups/101279456709105/

This is a facebook group a friend of mine has recently set up. Her horse has recently had the surgery and I know she is keen to hear from others having similar experiences.

 

[km001]

Thank you. Have joined group on fb