Kissing spines? At my wits end

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ayesha

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18 months ago I bought a youngster from a dealer. I took pity- foolishly some will say but she was horrific and punched him twice in the face while I was there. He wasn't even a cheap buy (ie not a few hundred quid) but a lovely person. I rode him there and she said he was 'just backed' recently imported. Immediately his held was held very high-waaay above just a baby he was fighting with her -head straight up and ears back and mouth open. She eventually got him into some awkward trot and I said I'd seen enough. I sat on him and walked him with no contact and he relaxed with me. So I fetched him home. I thought he'd been started badly with this hideous dealer so 'thought' he would come right.
He is extremely pleasant to handle and deal with such a lovely non-spooky boy. I no nothing of his history he is 6.
He looked very immature so I turned him away until the summer and then just began ground work lots of lunging, long reining-all perfect behaviour no fuss. I then progressed to getting on him and he ALWAYS stands like a rock to let you mount but hates the girth being done up. Started off very 'mouthy' but after a few weeks settled. I then got in a professional rider and he started going nreally nicely and then I loaned him to a friend (there was a reason I had some personal issues I had to deal with) so she had him short term. Within a couple of weeks he was mouthy again and began bucking in canter (he HAD only just begun cantering so assumed lack of balance). I went to hers to ride him and it took me 10 minutes to get him to go forwards his head was vertical but he didn't buck or rear just refused to move. He eventually went forward and the rest of my lesson was ok albeit with a dodgy contact.
I brought him home and got the professional rider out again and he began to relax with her immediately but still bucked into the canter adn she said he was very unbalanced so maybe more cantering on the lunge and out hacking so not in a small, tight school. I then rode the next day and he went beautifully. Then he began to get progressively worse again and he puts his head as high as he can when asked to go forwards even in the trot now and will bunny hop (not buck) into canter as he is unbalanced. He will also twist his body when asked to go forwards - evasively as he doesn't want to chuck me off but he doesn't want to go forwards either.
If you take him for a nice walk-hack he is fine. He likes hacking. Never tried cantering out hacking yet.
I have had back checked, tack and teeth. So now I am thinking either it is evasion, psychological or more worryingly- a KS type scenario. Back person said no hint of soreness anywhere from poll to tail.
He is such low mileage it would be a tragedy if it was injury related and he moves so nicely he doesn't scream of a lame horse at all. He is quite a big horse so I don't want to keep riding and pushing him on if there is genuine pain. My instructor made me ride him through it and he did come out the other side but a niggle in my mind says the ears pinned back under saddle does not tally with the sweetest horse in the world to handle. However if he takes a dislike to a horse he doesn't like in the field- or next door- he does also change to a demon that I don't recognise and can do this under saddle if a horse passes - ears pinned type and can be very dominating in the field. Never with me though so would hate to think he'd do that to me while I am on in so am inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.

I have piled money into this horse and I don't know where to go from here. How much are X rays- how much is a KS operation if it was this? I already have 2 field ornaments (old) and this was to be my 1 riding horse! :confused:
 
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It will cover a good portion of it. Have you also thought about ulcers.

I would get him booked into the vets.
 
I agree with wrench, get the vet out. My horse had kissing spine she showed pain behind saddle area, I spent a lot of money on saddles, physio's etc, got the vet out last and he said she could have kissing spine, I wish I got vet first

Good luck
 
ayesha said:
18 months ago I bought a youngster from a dealer. I took pity- foolishly some will say but she was horrific and punched him twice in the face while I was there. He wasn't even a cheap buy (ie not a few hundred quid) but a lovely person. I rode him there and she said he was 'just backed' recently imported. Immediately his held was held very high-waaay above just a baby he was fighting with her -head straight up and ears back and mouth open. She eventually got him into some awkward trot and I said I'd seen enough. I sat on him and walked him with no contact and he relaxed with me. So I fetched him home. I thought he'd been started badly with this hideous dealer so 'thought' he would come right.
He is extremely pleasant to handle and deal with such a lovely non-spooky boy. I no nothing of his history he is 6.
He looked very immature so I turned him away until the summer and then just began ground work lots of lunging, long reining-all perfect behaviour no fuss. I then progressed to getting on him and he ALWAYS stands like a rock to let you mount but hates the girth being done up. Started off very 'mouthy' but after a few weeks settled. I then got in a professional rider and he started going nreally nicely and then I loaned him to a friend (there was a reason I had some personal issues I had to deal with) so she had him short term. Within a couple of weeks he was mouthy again and began bucking in canter (he HAD only just begun cantering so assumed lack of balance). I went to hers to ride him and it took me 10 minutes to get him to go forwards his head was vertical but he didn't buck or rear just refused to move. He eventually went forward and the rest of my lesson was ok albeit with a dodgy contact.
I brought him home and got the professional rider out again and he began to relax with her immediately but still bucked into the canter adn she said he was very unbalanced so maybe more cantering on the lunge and out hacking so not in a small, tight school. I then rode the next day and he went beautifully. Then he began to get progressively worse again and he puts his head as high as he can when asked to go forwards even in the trot now and will bunny hop (not buck) into canter as he is unbalanced. He will also twist his body when asked to go forwards - evasively as he doesn't want to chuck me off but he doesn't want to go forwards either.
If you take him for a nice walk-hack he is fine. He likes hacking. Never tried cantering out hacking yet.
I have had back checked, tack and teeth. So now I am thinking either it is evasion, psychological or more worryingly- a KS type scenario. Back person said no hint of soreness anywhere from poll to tail.
He is such low mileage it would be a tragedy if it was injury related and he moves so nicely he doesn't scream of a lame horse at all. He is quite a big horse so I don't want to keep riding and pushing him on if there is genuine pain. My instructor made me ride him through it and he did come out the other side but a niggle in my mind says the ears pinned back under saddle does not tally with the sweetest horse in the world to handle. However if he takes a dislike to a horse he doesn't like in the field- or next door- he does also change to a demon that I don't recognise and can do this under saddle if a horse passes - ears pinned type and can be very dominating in the field. Never with me though so would hate to think he'd do that to me while I am on in so am inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.

I have piled money into this horse and I don't know where to go from here. How much are X rays- how much is a KS operation if it was this? I already have 2 field ornaments (old) and this was to be my 1 riding horse! :confused:
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What a disgusting "dealer" punching him in the face, makes me sick, why do these scum think they've got the right to treat an animal that's totally dependent on them like this?

I must say if I were you I would have gone up the wall and punched her in the face the vile b**ch.

Thank god he's found you.
 
Why do you say he is low mileage? If he was over 4 when you bought him he could have done a couple of seasons hunting!
 
victoria1980x said:
What a disgusting "dealer" punching him in the face, makes me sick, why do these scum think they've got the right to treat an animal that's totally dependent on them like this?

I must say if I were you I would have gone up the wall and punched her in the face the vile b**ch.

Thank god he's found you.
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This is how it made me feel but I am quite passive and trust me-she'd have flattened me! The odd thing was she hated him but had a mare for sale she really liked. She told me she hated him, said he was useless and hates geldings as like all men everything is "too much trouble". That is why I took him home. He also looked quite poor and had only been with her a couple of weeks so I think she barely fed him in that 2 weeks. The first week I could not catch him as he was head shy but after a week he couldn't keep away so whoever had him before loved him, or did some very good handling early on!

Good point sugar he could have hunted. I did ring first owner as he was on passport and he said he was lightly backed and sent over here. He had him from a weanling. He could have been telling porkies though. I am wondering ulcers with it being intermittent. Could be anything I guess!
 
Type in on net ULCERS IN HORSES there is a video by Mark Depaolo that does show ulcers will cause back pain,sorry I am not sure how to do the link ,it is very interesting , I hope this helps.
 
I have just been through the KS surgery it really depends on where you go as to the cost, all in it cost £3500 plus my complementary treatment of £500
Moose had 2x bones removed can be cheaper if you go to Sven and have the ligaments cut but it will very much depend on what they fine. On a plus note Moose us a changed horse and is fabulous xxxx
 
I'm the owner of a horse that's just been diagnosed with KS. I'd say def get the vet. I realise it may take some money and a series of tests but insurance should cover these. You could spend a lot of time effort and money trying to fix things without knowing if there is something else going on. Chiro physio back people etc can't diagnose these things.

I ended up with tests for ulcers, gut issues, back, xrays, bone scan and lameness works up. I'm glad I did as imagine if I'd kept on trying to work/ride through this and hadn't realised what pain she was in. Won't come right without treatment.

If you get a diagnosis you have a better idea what your options are. If its nothing then you can crack on working through it but knowing you've ruled out obvious physical issues.

Good luck. I know it's a difficult time but sounds like you know something isn't right.
 
annunziata said:
I have just been through the KS surgery it really depends on where you go as to the cost, all in it cost £3500 plus my complementary treatment of £500
Moose had 2x bones removed can be cheaper if you go to Sven and have the ligaments cut but it will very much depend on what they fine. On a plus note Moose us a changed horse and is fabulous xxxx
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Sorry to hijack, but does Svend Kold do the ligament desmotomy op?

OP, I'd definitely get the vet out. KS isn't by any means the end of the world and there are lots of eventers and racehorses successfully competing out there who've been operated on. Good luck x
 
In your position, I would opt to go straight to someone like Sue Dyson at AHT, and be very clear on your absolute budget constraints.

It sounds like you are desperate to find out the root cause of the problem. In my opinion, you could spend (waste?) a lot of money having local vets doing some checks which might just be repeated when/if you go to a specialist vet. So personally I'd miss out the local vets (or rather I'd just say that I'd like a referral direct to a lameness expert, not least because of a limited budget).

In the meantime, I'd save any other cash for any possible treatment, rather than paying bodyworkers etc for stuff which might help general comfort levels, but probably won't be dealing with any underlying issue.

At least once you know what you are dealing with, it will make the decisions clearer (although no less traumatic).

Sarah
 
Caballito said:
Sorry to hijack, but does Svend Kold do the ligament desmotomy op?

OP, I'd definitely get the vet out. KS isn't by any means the end of the world and there are lots of eventers and racehorses successfully competing out there who've been operated on. Good luck x
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I think he does both I went for traditional at my vets as closer xx
 
My advice would also be to get a vet out. This is not necessarily KS at all - it could be a sacro illiac problem as the symptoms sound very much like it or certainly ulcers which cause all the bunny hopping girthiness, reluctance to go forward symptoms.
Why guess? You are likely worrying yourself over something it is not. Vet first and then probably a good physio would be my choice of action. Good luck OP.
 
flintfootfilly said:
In your position, I would opt to go straight to someone like Sue Dyson at AHT, and be very clear on your absolute budget constraints.

It sounds like you are desperate to find out the root cause of the problem. In my opinion, you could spend (waste?) a lot of money having local vets doing some checks which might just be repeated when/if you go to a specialist vet. So personally I'd miss out the local vets (or rather I'd just say that I'd like a referral direct to a lameness expert, not least because of a limited budget).

In the meantime, I'd save any other cash for any possible treatment, rather than paying bodyworkers etc for stuff which might help general comfort levels, but probably won't be dealing with any underlying issue.

At least once you know what you are dealing with, it will make the decisions clearer (although no less traumatic).

Sarah
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This is good advice but can I just say that my horse went straight to Newmarket and the bill was a shard short of £4,000 for Sue Dyson's lameness clinic, so hardy inexpensive. It does very much depend on the OP's budget and I think it certainly worth discounting ulcers to start with. A couple of spine xrays would also be inexpensive.
 
Caballito said:
Sorry to hijack, but does Svend Kold do the ligament desmotomy op?

OP, I'd definitely get the vet out. KS isn't by any means the end of the world and there are lots of eventers and racehorses successfully competing out there who've been operated on. Good luck x
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No he doesn't - I had to be re referred to cotts equine for the ligament op

As a guide cotts charge about £1100 for the operation, and 2 nights stay over (one before and one after) as we were so far away

Mine had 10 incisions as had 9 impinging and traditional surgery wasn't going to work as mine couldn't do the length of box rest that was required. It's worked wonders for my girl
 
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Thank you for all the replies very helpful.

I think the vet is the way to go also. I was first blaming the way I ride and wondered if it was me as he went so well with the professional rider but then he soon began bucking with her too and so I realised he was trying to tell us something.

The bit that doesn't add up is there is no soreness whatsoever he had chiro and sorts massage and even in the girth area (despite hating the girth) he can be palpated anywhere on his body and is very relaxed and soft. I watched that video on ulcers and it was really good but he shows no signs in the trigger areas suggested.

I am actually more concerned having read about sacroilliac symptoms as he sounded very much like him. I am more worried about what the outcome is I think that is my fear as I know I can not afford to add to the £3k of vets fees as my other field ornaments are now not covered as I exhausted insurance on one of them (luckily he was insured!) but I really cleared savings too trying to get him right and it was not to be. I cannot afford a 3rd field ornament
 
If you budget carefully you should be able to work on it. Which area are you in?

Firstly I would suggest getting your horse into the vets. Don't call them out, as chances are there isn't much they can do at home.

A stomach scope shouldn't be expensive at all, neither would a back X-ray. I guess the vet will probably want to do a lameness work up first.

A bone scan can quite often follow kissing spines X-rays. This is useful in the fact that it shows if the ks is active or not. Shop around for quotes from vets, I've had some that have been £100's less than the big vets in Newmarket.

Have you considered having a thermal imaging scan done on the horse? I had mine done all over for £85 and it can show up potential problem areas.
 
OP - my horse was diagnosed with chronic sacro illiac dysfunction by Sue Dyson at Newmarket, however prior to that diagnosis I had:-

him scoped for ulcers and he had a few low grade ones, which we realised could not be responsible for his behaviour and then I:-

  1. had an iridology report done
  2. had a communication via an AC
  3. had a shiatsu therapist out to him
all the 3 above said that he had an injury high up r/h hind. He said to the communicator he found ridden work too difficult and he showed himself falling down onto his right hind. The shiatsu therapist cried when she touched him she said he was in such pain.

The 3 things cost me less than £100. My vet referred him to Newmarket after I had these done ( he was so aggressive they were happy not to investigate themselves). Then Newmarket cost circa £4k. I got LOU for my horse - it took Sue a week to diagnose as it was a chronic injury and hard to diagnose as no 'hot spot' showed on the bone scan due to the age of the injury.
The good news is that after some physio and rehab I sent my horse to a holistic vet who mobilsed his sacrum - I then turned him away for a year and he is now coming back into work and is sound. It's been a long haul but my horse was an extreme case.
 
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