Kissing spines in Young horses

ponies4ever

ponies4ever

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So yesterday my 6yo had x rays done and it turns out she has mild kissing spines (don't ask me for more details slightly went in one ear and out the other so will speak to my vet again soon. Luckily Ive not had to deal with this before!) i have been advised to not operate and to bute her so as to work her more effectively and build up muscle and to have regular physio (YO is a physio so this is actually quite convenient) to then eventually hopefully being able to come off the bute. But my question would be whether you would prefer to do the op anyway as she is young and therefore should recove easily? I bought her with the hopes of producing her to event but obviously cannot do this on the bute. she is insured. TIA X
 
I'm surprised they have suggested Bute not steroid injections ? Bute as far as I'm aware is often not affective at dealing with kissing spines pain, certainly not with the horse we had, Bute did nothing. What work they can do very much depends on the individual case, how bad, where in the back and what exactly is going on as well as if they have issues elsewhere in the body or not. I think it also very much depends on how they are rehabbed and how they are ridden going forwards. Can't comment on if I would do the op without knowing more info
 
I would certainly go down the conservative route first especially if that is the advice given by the vet, many horses have been treated this way with success, I also thought bute was not effective but it should allow the area to be less inflamed which may be enough to allow her to relax, work correctly and build up the correct muscle.
At this stage I would be more concerned about getting her right than whether you can compete the rehab will take a while and if she comes fit enough to compete she will be off the bute by then anyway, you have a lot of work ahead of you and I don't think having the op will make it any easier or shorter, I would think of it as a last resort if she has not come right when the 12 months insurance is coming to the end.
 
Four bute a day did nothing for kissing spine pain in my horse while waiting for his operation. I was told it does not cover back pain by another vet. I would not do a ligament split operation again. I believe it destabilises the spine, which shows up later, but I'm still waiting for anyone to publish some research to prove that.

BP as usual has given you great advice.
 
I have had KS a horse where Bute made no difference and one where it did .
I would not operate as a first line of treatment in a youngster .
I would in the first instance stop riding the horse and work him from the ground .
I would lead the horse out from another horse .
It you are not good at lunging and work in hand find someone who has an interest in it to teach you .
I would rehab the horse exactly as a horse after the reshaping op.
I would work just in a bridle or with a lunging rope os very long low side reins .
I would NOT use a Pessoa or anything like that .
I would be working ten mins three times a day at first if you can .
While I have have misgivings about his system I would take a look at the Will Faeber stuff on the art2ride pages on YouTube and face book .
There’s loads of clips showing how to get horse to lower and d stretch the neck walking on the lunge it should I say walk lunging which is what you will be doing at first .
Try to find a physio with an interest in pole excercises I was lucky mine has an interest in that and targeting those to the horses needs really helped .
I would be thinking of twelve weeks unridden work and then see where you are .
If things don’t work out don’t do the snip it’s long term results are not great .
While the op is a bit scary my horse cane through it fine and was transformed sadly he went on to get bowel tumours and I lost him any way .
If your horse where mine I would get his feet xrayed and his hock and his hocks scanned as KS is usually in my opinion secondary to something else .
Bad luck but correct work can transform these horses so focus on learning what you need to do .
 
I have had two with kissing spine. If the kissing spine is very very mild, then the vet might be confident that the correct muscle and strength in back might mean the issue will be manageable without steroids. One of mine has to always be kept in correct work, because if I gave him a month off and he lost muscle, then he would start showing symptoms of it again. If you can avoid the injections at this stage then thats a good route to take if possible.

It all depends on the physio work that's done now. Badly done physio is worse than no physio. It would be really helpful if you had someone coming who you knew 100% was confident in what they were doing. I've seen people get yard owners to lunge because they think they know what they are doing, and it does more harm that good. It might be worth linking in and getting someone out regularly for this first burst of work, just to make sure it's done right. My lad has evented happily for years with it, once the correct body and muscle building work is done. The fact they said it's mild sounds like it could be manageable for you.
 
Ahh.. the kissing spine This is so common now and being bred into them/can be caused by doing to much to early.

My mare had it.. we went through it all, she was only 9 and no longer with us. I'd recommend NOT operating until you get a bone scan or full body x-rays to show if she has any other issues. Even if they aren't lame, do still get scans/x-rays done to just double check.

We operated on her back, mild kissing spine. Rehabbed her, she went lame, turned out she had arthritis in her hocks bad. Injected, still not quite right. Scanned for ulcers, chronic ulcers. My insurance wouldn't cover a MRI as the operation was over £3000 alone (£5000 per incident I had) and ideally that was what she needed.
We gave her tildren, we treated everything (ulcers etc) and I spent over a year trying to get her right. She went amazing, started riding her and then she just went down hill. She started attacking horses in the field, you couldn't even brush her she'd have you (and she was clear of ulcers at this point) you couldn't go in her stable, she was dangerous. Me and the vets knew it was pain, they said she could have TONS of secondary issues (from the KS) and they may never cure her. She had physio out weekly, I honestly spent SO much time and money rehabbing, in hand work, we must of walked hundreds of miles. I couldn't do anything else to help her. The vet thought it could be a number of issues after her going back to the hospital (she was there all the time!)

She couldn't be turned away as needed shoes every 6 weeks (TB x appy) and clearly had other issues as well as mental ones. Insurance limit was reached and I made the fatal decision.

If I had another with KS i'd get x-rays/MRI to check for other issues. The vets (and these were top vets in the country at the time, 5 years ago) told me most horses with KS have secondary issues now and it depends how old/how much they have compensated as to how bad the secondary issues are. Most commonly its arthritis in the hocks, suspensory issues, SI etc.

A friend had a welsh, kissing spine, operated, all okay.. diagnosed with chronic arthritis in the hocks. He was early teens. Nothing helped, he was put to sleep. Another friend has a TB she was operated on and had her hocks injected, shes going incredibility well, fun rides, hunter trials and looks excellent.

I have another friend whos horse has just been diagnosed, he was bolting when mounted. He only has kissing spine and the rest of him is clear, so it is possible to not have secondary issues but worth checking.

Sorry to be so blunt, I really really do hope she comes right just sharing my story so hopefully you won't experience what I did. I wish I got a MRI scan done first and we could of seen what other issues she had going on before acting on it.

If she were mine I'd have a look if there are any other issues and make the decision, then i'd go for the operation if nothing to serious arised. If the KS is mild, the steriod injections and bute won't last forever but a operation is the fix, bute doesn't usually work on a horse with KS the vets told me. Usually secondary issues show when they start working themselves properly

If shes insured i'd go all out, don't just leave it with injections and bute as next year you won't be able to claim if she gets worse.
 
Thanks all for replies. Theres a lot of information here! So: she isn’t unsound and trots up fine currently and vet actually didn’t believe me at first that there was anything wrong (she can be *temper-mental* around strangers especially men). She’s been on a Bute trial (4 a day) and showed a lot of improvement (hadn’t been going into canter well, cold backed and just wasn’t going forward well until very end of ride). She’s been prescribed 2 a day now. I have spoken to my physiotherapist today and she's recommended just lunging long and low with a bungee and a bandage under the stomach for a month and then seeing how she is. She's also a bit wonky to ride so I was already wanting to ask for more scans (has VERY bad seasons so I'm thinking linked to sex organs? has had a foal before so could be damage?? Just what physiotherapist and I think it could be anyway) and Aimeetess I'm sorry you had to go through that but you have definitely persuaded me to get it checked before deciding on anything. Im interested that you've said go for the operation (everything else considered first) where as others haven't. Do most cases need the operation at some point so would I just be putting off the inevitable by going with the Bute/injections first? BTW will 100% ask about steroid injections though as he only gave a wishy washy excuse that I didn't fully understand. I used to do straightness training with last horse with success but so far my attempts with this one have not been entirely successful... Its just teaching correct trying from the ground like a lot of other things nothing ground braking but still valid thanks. As to her current work Ive had her since feb and have taken it very slowly as had her future in mind. Im no great rider but she built up a pretty good topline and works correctly (once warmed up or on Bute) and dressage instructor loves her (she is a really good mover on a good day) and she can comfortably jump a 90 course (not that I jumped her much-once every 2 weeks maybe less?) and has been hacking as well. started on 15 mins of work 3 times a week and had worked up to 35/40 mins of work 5 days a week so is relatively fit. What else am I missing to answer??
 
Has she had a proper lameness work up to check she's not bilaterally lame behind (ie nerve blocks) ? It's just some of what you have put in your update including her getting better the more you ride her, being wonky and having such a positive reaction to Bute would make me question if there was something going on behind. Having been through similar it's very difficult when they don't appear lame on a normal trot up but with bilateral lameness they often look sound. Just something to consider
 
Thanks so much for keeping replying this is the first horse I’ve had that’s had more than a minor cough so it’s a bit of a shock to the system! No she’s not had never blocks yet due to the fact that she’s not great with her back legs, fine for me to do stuff with but tried to kick farrier and vet a few times so vet does not think nerve blocks are going to be safe for any involved so would likely need more x rays under sedation. Vet doesn’t think it’s in her legs and equally Physio thinks it coming from her pelvis somewhere possibly but also suggested that KS can make them wonky? I’ve not heard of this before and was wondering if this is common?
 
Get her on a lameness work up and get the back legs xrayed.. honestly even if the vet or physio doesn’t think it’s the back legs it still could be. 2 vets told my mare was hormonal and clearly not.
The wonky could be hock arthritis, could be a number of things. Has the vet even flexion tested her hocks and stifle? Worth doing and lunging on concrete.

I wouldn’t jump a horse I knew had kissing spine even on bute, she’ll be in pain even on the bute just putting a brave face on. I can’t believe your vet has said to give 2 bute a day and crack on. That’s awful.. I’ve never known a vet do this. She’ll be on bute forever?! Kissing spine won’t go even if shes nicely muscled up, it still hurt her. :-( you can lunge her and build up the top line, as the physio says but it will still hurt? I’d change vet or get another vet for a second opinion that isn’t right..

Injections only last up to a year and every one I know that’s had the injection has gone for the operation later down the line.

Operation is permanent, the steroid injection isn’t. If you’re insured go all out, your regret it if you don’t get a lameness work up done or the hocks, stifle etc checked in the future when problems could start to show.

Join the kissing spine group on Facebook it’s great and so much great advice from knowledgable people. I’d be pushing for a lameness work up and the operation, I wouldn’t leave mine horse on bute everyday with kissing spine. If you weren’t insured it’s a bit difference but you’re insured so spend that money and make her better :-) xx
 
AHh not saying I’m jumping her now but that she was before I decided to get it all checked out! We did have a bit of trouble doing the first flexion as I have mention she’s not great with back legs so I would need to probably ask for two vets to come out so I could be the one holding the leg potentially. She is insured btw. Thanks for the advice I’ll have a look on fb and will definitely consider getting another opinion. I have to say it doesn’t quite make sense to me not doing the operation as it really doesn’t sit right to me just masking the pain be it with injections or Bute rather than curing the problem at the source. Or am I grossly misinformed? Obviously will discuss all with vet but he is currently on holiday :/
 
Just wanted to add I’m not about to just leap into the surgery option, my next step is to find out if anything else is going on and if so how that is affecting the back pain and if that’s resolved can the KS be managed with correct work and injections etc I’m more just interested on peoples view on the surgery in general.
 
ponies4ever said:
AHh not saying I’m jumping her now but that she was before I decided to get it all checked out! We did have a bit of trouble doing the first flexion as I have mention she’s not great with back legs so I would need to probably ask for two vets to come out so I could be the one holding the leg potentially. She is insured btw. Thanks for the advice I’ll have a look on fb and will definitely consider getting another opinion. I have to say it doesn’t quite make sense to me not doing the operation as it really doesn’t sit right to me just masking the pain be it with injections or Bute rather than curing the problem at the source. Or am I grossly misinformed? Obviously will discuss all with vet but he is currently on holiday :/
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My understanding is that mild cases of KS can be pain free once the rehab is done because the spinal processes open up to where they should be so are no longer impinging, bute or steroids will not mask anything they are anti inflammatory in action so they allow the horse to be relatively pain free while rehabbing and once the back muscles are built up correctly their action will no longer be required, steroids may only last a year but unlike with arthritis the condition is not always going to degenerate so it doesn't matter how long it works for if the horse is working correctly by then .

I do agree KS can be secondary to something else but finding the primary issue may not be easy and may be best done in a hospital with good facilities.

My other thought is I am not overly impressed that your physio has not come out to assess and has just prescribed lunging for a month, I have no idea how well you lunge but it seems a rather casual approach at this stage when I would want them to see the horse in action, watch you lunge and give a progressive plan of what you are aiming to achieve over the next 4 weeks, I would expect my physio to be out within the next week and another visit 2 weeks later to see how things are progressing, don't forget this could well be covered by insurance as an essential part of the treatment.
 
I am very fortunate that Physio is also my YO so can watch me daily! She knows my horse very well and has taught me on her as well. Before anyone slates her for not spotting it sooner my horse was very under muscled when I got her so we were initially under the impression that symptoms would go away with more muscle.
 
Video of horse I hope?
Thought this would give better context. Little clip that I had on my phone from about a month ago in an intro test. Please ignore my riding as much as you can I have my own spinal issues! I promise I know how to work her better from the ground.
 
It doesn't sound to me as if anyone has actually established that your mare's problems are caused by kissing spines. Yes, she has some marks of mild impinging spines on x ray, but so have many horses that are showing no symptoms. It's far too early to even consider an operation to resolve her issues and I think that your vet should be insisting on at least investigating the back legs (yes I read that it will be difficult) and ulcers which also present with similar symptoms. And if she has ulcers, they and the kissing spines could equally both be being caused by something else. I completely understand your hope for a quick and easy cure, but I'm afraid you've a way to go yet :(

My gut reaction from what you've written and your video is that everything related to you mare's unhappiness at having her back legs handled. If your physio says pelvis, she could well be right. If she is insured, I'd go straight for a whole body scintigraph. She wouldn't be the first horse carrying a pelvis fracture that nobody knows about.
 
Thanks for your reply YCBM. That sounds like sound advice which I will try to follow ASAP. I’m very stressed at the moment and I’m really appreciative of all advice that’s been given and that everything has been very constructive and easy to follow! :) now just need to get back in contact with vets
 
I would also seriously consider a bone scan it does give you an all over snapshot of bone health .
If it throws up lots of issues At least you know I would also be wanting to scan the suspensorys in the hocks .
 
Goldenstar said:
Surely all training is for straightness it’s just basic correct training
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Of course, but I found this introduced me to it in a very different and interesting way having never had the opportunity to be taught in hand work before. I did do some with a classical trainer but while he got good results he did make it all seem a bit mysterious, whereas I found the ST much more accessible. There are quite a lot of people who have done the ST with their KS horses with good results.

I would agree with others on the rest of the checks now we have more info though.
 
If it comes to surgery I would not be afraid of it , my experiance was good the horse was transformed the tumours that ended the horses life was just horrible bad luck .
You do need a fair bit of time with them post op we spent a lot of time with C and he did have a fair bit of discomfort post op .
We did have one hiccup he reacted to the scrub they used before they catheterised him and his sheath became swollen and he had to be sedated for treatment and coliced after .
He had twelve weeks stabled but we started in hand work on week three he was a nightmare the first couple of days but did settle into his routine of work three times a day seven days a week .
It was hard work but he came right and although I lost him anyway and I spent a fortune I was happy he enjoyed his wonderful physical gifts for a short while .
 
It's hard to tell from the short video clip and also it's slow motion. From his general movement as far as short clip can tell you, I would get his hind end looked at. With all you have mention in relation to issues with his hind legs and this being a problem for nerve blocks etc I would give up with the piecemeal approach currently from vet, physio etc and get him referred to a specialist referral practice for a full work up. They will have enough staff to deal with any issues with handling the hind legs and be able to get on and look for what the issue actually is. This will take the stress and pressure off you for a bit and then you can come up with a plan depending on the results.
As has been said above, slight kissing spines on x-ray doesn't mean it's active and causing pain and a bone scan may be the way to go to find where any hotspots are
 
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