Kissing spines or ovarian tumors?

Emmak12

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(sorry for the v long post, it is a long story and every detail prob needs taking into account! lol)

My mare has has been through a very nasty trailor accident last April 2010 and ripped her side off quite literally. Anyway, she recovered, much to the vets amazement and is doing very well. To cut long story short, she hasnt been the same since, she prats around going to the field, and once in the field wants to come back in after a few hours, even in the summer, and i have to ensure i am the first to get to the yard pm as she freaks out if she not the first to come in. She is not affectionate anymore, will pull faces at me and other ppl and horses.

However, in October last year she bit the yard manager on the back, very violently, no warning, leaned over her stable door and grabbed her on the back at the shoulder and dragged her into the stable door.

Obviously i was devastated as this is completely not normal, but the physio was coming out in the next few days so hoped she would be able to explain, between the attack and the physio coming out i rode her out on a hack and she threw me off, bucked and reared, dragged me along untill i managed to unhoock my foot from the stirup and then gallopped off down the rd! Now i have owned her for 3 yrs and she have NEVER done anything remotely like this before! Anyway physio came out and said she has a very sore back, so got vet out and put her on bute for 10 days and rested her.

After this physio came back and said she feels really good. So can carry on riding, but just straight lines, no circles etc, take it very slow, which i was already doing.

Since then, physio has been out again and she was extremely pleased with her, no problems in her back, little pain in withers but not a massive deal. Said i could start to dtep it up a bit, lessons again, little canters etc.

So i have been doing so for the last month, when couple of weeks ago she was in her stable, the horse next door was tied up outside his stable and she just launched at him and bit him to the point he fell onto the concrete. Now i didnt see it actually happen but his owner says that there was no warning, she just randomly launced at him.

Later that day, after she had chilled out for a bit, i took her for a walk inhand up the track, as i usually do when no turn out. Anyway, all of a sudden out of no where, she switched and startded, backing up, spinnning round, leaping in the air, snorting. There was nothing to spook at as far as im aware. Managed to get her back to stable block, where she cantered into her stable, i had to slam the door behind her! 10 mins later it wa like it never happened! she was completly fine!

Now, i know this isnt normal behaviour so contacted the vets, had a long chat and they said it may be pain related like last time she had back pain. so do 10 days bute and rest! A few days later same vet was on the yard so asked him if he could look at her. he did flexion tests and found lameness in 3 legs and very painful withers.

She he said might try regumate to calm her and x-rays to see if kissing spines!

I have spoken to my lecturer who is a vet and she has said that it could be ovarian tumors so i should get them to scan her ovaries!

since then she got cast in her stable which wont help in diagnosing this, so vet said continue on bute for further 2 weeks and start riding and see if she is any better!

i just wondered if any one has any ideas of what is going on?? or if anyone has had horses with kissing spines or ovarian tumors?
The problem is we dont know what she could of done in the accident apart from the visual wounds! And if she has KS or OT then surgery is the only option, but she is 17 and will not load, so cant do surgery anyway!

Im just freaking out a bit!
 
You poor thing!

Definately get her back checked again - if she does have kissing spine, then getting all the joints in the area moving well and and the muscles supporting these joints relaxed will help her massively. Understand where the vet is coming from re her ovaries, but I would make sure you have a horse with a happy back before you start down that line - often find it's easier to go down a differential diagnosis list one at a time rather than all at once. Obviously only get her back checked if your vet is happy that this should be done before any further investigations take place.

Maybe speak to a nutritionist about diet/supplements that will help to calm her down a bit.

Good luck!
 
Hi, just to update

I rode for 10 mins the other day but obviusouly not enough time to see a real difference.
However, today i rode and she was really rushing, then into trot she threw a buck, out of excitement? not sure? maybe as they have been in for 2 weeks now due to very wet fields. Everytime i went into trot she would throw her head around, and bounce around, side step. It could be due to excitement, but she is not normally like this, but then again it wasnt violent as if she wanted me off! Have a lesson mon so will see if my instructor notices a diference.

Mozlar, I will try to load her again at some point but not untill she has fully recovered. When i got her loading, i got a behaviourist out to help as i didnt want to be rushing or getting stressed as it doesnt make the situation any better, hence wanting to sort it out properly so she loads safely, i done this and was practising for 2 weeks after the behaviourist without any problems untill one day she loaded herself then freaked out on the trailor (before we even moved or started engine) tried running round the front of the partition, therefore something out of the blue must have freaked her out! Sedating horses is ok but not all horses can be sedated, they can cancel it out if they increase their adrenaline, therefore it would be too dangerous if she was scared to this point already! lol!

XxEmmaxX
 
ovarian problems is a definate possibility. Kissing spines presents itself in different ways but is something that comes over time. Usually the horse is reluctant to go forward, work over their back, they can buck,rear ect. If she is doing this behaviour from the ground also it could be more hormonal problems than anything else. Im getting my mare scanned due to her behaviour. I would get the vet out and get a scan first and try regumate, and if no different get a full lameness done and x-rays.
 
My horse exhibited all these signs over a very short space of time, even the vet said they doubted KS because it was such a sudden change.

He went from being an absolute gent on the ground, and a willing responsive ride to a dangerous lunatic! He would spook, spin and rear on the ground, with no warning. He is the first horse I have been scared of.
He felt tense under saddle and finally threw me off in a rodeo bucking fit.

He was eventually diagnosed with severe KS, he had the op in July last year and is back in work and jumping again.

I really hope you find the cause of your mares unhappiness, it's awful to watch and so stressful to deal with.
 
Hi, just to update

I rode for 10 mins the other day but obviusouly not enough time to see a real difference.
However, today i rode and she was really rushing, then into trot she threw a buck, out of excitement? not sure? maybe as they have been in for 2 weeks now due to very wet fields. Everytime i went into trot she would throw her head around, and bounce around, side step. It could be due to excitement, but she is not normally like this, but then again it wasnt violent as if she wanted me off! Have a lesson mon so will see if my instructor notices a diference.

Mozlar, I will try to load her again at some point but not untill she has fully recovered. When i got her loading, i got a behaviourist out to help as i didnt want to be rushing or getting stressed as it doesnt make the situation any better, hence wanting to sort it out properly so she loads safely, i done this and was practising for 2 weeks after the behaviourist without any problems untill one day she loaded herself then freaked out on the trailor (before we even moved or started engine) tried running round the front of the partition, therefore something out of the blue must have freaked her out! Sedating horses is ok but not all horses can be sedated, they can cancel it out if they increase their adrenaline, therefore it would be too dangerous if she was scared to this point already! lol!

XxEmmaxX

Sounds like she behaved very well for a horse thats had no turn out for 2 weeks!
In terms of the loading, I am not talking about sedaline which may or may not work (but then you wont know till you try) I mean a jab from the vet such as you get when you have a minor procedure at the clinic, this DOES work! I only mean that if you really need to get an op done I am sure the vet will help with this. If its KS she is not going to 'recover' and will need to go in.
 
ovarian problems is a definate possibility. Kissing spines presents itself in different ways but is something that comes over time. Usually the horse is reluctant to go forward, work over their back, they can buck,rear ect. If she is doing this behaviour from the ground also it could be more hormonal problems than anything else. Im getting my mare scanned due to her behaviour. I would get the vet out and get a scan first and try regumate, and if no different get a full lameness done and x-rays.

It doesnt always happen like this, sometimes there does come a point at which a stoic horse who has coped with low grade pain cannot cope and flips in terms of its behaviour or else the vague symptoms arent noticed
 
Hi, thanks for your comments everyone

Just to update, Have since ridden as the vet told me to. I had a lesson and my instructor and i felt a difference, she was better in canter and was easy to keep in a rhythm, so could be the bute or could just be a good lesson not sure.

However, since then, she attacked me at the weekend! I entered her stable and she ran towards me, bit my arm with force, ran to the back of the stable and turned her bum at me....obviously i made swift exit out the stable! I was so shocked...i had done nothing wrong...i had been in her stable a few times, skipping out etc she'd had her bute and her dinner and got hay....all i did was enter the stable to change rug before i left...and she just launched at me as soon as i entered. Have a nice cut on my arm with big bruise.

Anyway, have since spoken with the vet who said, it is either pain related or psychological. He doesnt think it is a seasonal thing. So she is now on metacam which is a more potent NSAID so give her 3 weeks on that. If behaviour improves we can assume it is pain related and investiagte further. If behaviour the same then it is psychological and is very difficult cuz then we have to get inside her head!

I said to the vet im concerned she is going to hurt someone, and he said yea it very very difficult as how many chances do you give a dog!?

So obviously very upset about this! I dont want to give up on her! Will try anything parelli instructor, horse communicator...i dont know what to do!

XxEmmaxX
 
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All this seems to stem back to her trailer accident and it seems like she hasn't got over the trauma. Personally I would be looking to get some professional behaviorist trainer help to see her through. The thing that strikes me is the biting and aggression, being in pain is one thing but it doesn't always manifest itself in biting etc so INV there is something else going on aswell. I think she is hurting mentally and physically.

The person who got my horse through such traumas was Richard Maxwell, my horse went to him for 6weeks and it took a lot of homework but we got there. The first thing he did was to check him physically, and it tuned out he was a wreck, before working on the emotional problems.

Just ramblings i think but another avenue to explore.
 
Could you possible try her with another vet or specialist just to get a second opinion? Sometimes just being presented with all the symptoms and stuff first time can make a huge difference.

I personally have a feeling its something hormonal...just because she seems so unpredictable behaviorally whereas I would presume if she had KS she would be constantly moody or uncomfortable.

Have they taken bloods from her or don't an ultrasound on her ovaries? That should show up any problems there. And a quick X-ray would rule out the KS.
 
Well tbh i do think its a bit of both.

Vets havent done any tests at all! They are just telling me to try her on anti-imflammatory drugs first. I kinda understand why, they want to first identify if it is pain related, before we do all the expensive tests for it to come back negative as i wont be able to cliam if its psychological!

I will definately get a behaviourist out (have previously used Grant Bazin), but obviously dont want to do that right now if on the painkillers as will give false results.

But, the thing to remember is, i would love to take her for more tests, but we are limited to what we can do as she wont travel! - this will have to be resolved first before i can do anything, and if she is being unpredictable- loading is the last thing i want to put her through. Its catch 22!

XxEmmaxX
 
A scan on her ovaries will not be expensive. My friends mare had one and I'm sure it was only a couple of £100.... And a blood test is only £70..... They should be able to do a scan at your yard.

As a previous poster said, get a vet to IV sedate her to travel her if and when it comes to it. She will be totally out of it (they can do it so she's only awake enough to be able to keep her balance) and she won't be able to fight it. I've had to have it done a couple of times. They have no choice about what happens.

Good luck!
 
I am currently going through something similar with my horse and she has just been diagonised with Kissing Spine, her back was very sore and her temperament changed ans she started biting in a vicious way with ears back. She used to rear when I rode her out which I put down to naughtyness when really she was incredibly sore.
I had a chripodist look at her back and soreness was found.
I took my mare to have xrays and it became clear that she had kissing spine I was gutted, however the vet came today and things aren't as bad as I thought, its certainly worth the xray!
 
We have a mare much like this, funnily enough she had a trailer accident, went right over backwards and trashed her legs and the trailer. She also suffers seperation problems, she is moody, often snappy and very nappy.

She had an ovary removed about 3 years ago and although we haven't cured all of her problems (she has a back problem too - not kissing spine) including the seperation, but she is a totally different horse.

So for us it was 2 things, back and ovary. After her ovary was removed, she also reduced her lameness problems and her back isn't as bad, she used to stand very wonky in pain causing more back pain.

Do get her ovary's checked, its not expensive as mentioned before and they can probably do it at home - we've just had our mare checked to see if everything is working ok in the remaining ovary - it is fortunatley. At least it would rule one thing out without going the expensive route!
 
Hi,

More than 80% of 'behaviour' cases are in fact a pain problem, and most of your mare's behaviour issues sound like they are pain related. Most pain killers available to horses don't have the effects needed to tackle some pain sources including deep muscle and ovarian problems, so if they help then great but don't rule out pain if they don't.

Vets should be able to do most of an initial investigation at your yard, removing the need to travel, but if you are anywhere near Bucks I can let you know of a vet that can do most things on your yard. However if it becomes necessary to travel then your vet should be able to sedate her so that she can travel without too much stress.

Although I would strongly recommend a full work up first, I have had horses with weird pain/behaviour issues respond remarkably to acupuncture.

I hope you find a solution soon.
 
Thanks guys!

Yea i think i will def push the vets to scan her ovaries and xrays just so at least we can rule a couple of things out! She been on metacam for nearly a week now and she does seem calmer!

And i will talk to the vets about loading if it comes down to that! But i was told by my vet, the first night after accident she was sedated to the point vet had to keep slapping her neck to stop her from falling on floor! And had to cross tie her, just the left side of her face was dripping with sweat from sedation (first time vet had seen that although in all of the vet books) and even then he told us that she could wake up from it if she really wanted to hence why should couldnt go to new market for treatment there! anyway she seemed to accept it then so maybe could work....just being paranoied mum i guess! lol!

I shall keep you all posted!

XxEmmaxX
 
Hi just to update! Very good news!

Had an osteopath out on sat and explained what had happened etc.
He checked her over and said found that she had damaged her left shoulder same side of the wound (prob done in the accident).

Anyway due to this the muscles round the shoulder connect to the withers and so would be pulling on this causing pain here, so then due to this pain she has been holding herself through her back, causing back pain then causing her to tuck her bum under causing pain here, (which is consistant with why every physio vist has been to treat some form of back and bum pain).

Also due to the way she has held herself to correct shoulder pain this means she cant breathe, and so muscles round the wound tighten, then causing shoulder pain again, so then causes pain in withers, then causes pain in back, then bum then wound etc etc this cycle just repeats and repeats over and over! He said it would cause increadable amount of pain, no wonder she so grumpy. Proberly for the last 11 months totally un-noticed just getting gradually worse.

He has corrected the shoulder, and muslce round the wound (abdominal oblique/ abdomen)
he will come back in 2 weeks to ensure wound doesnt tighten again!

Hopefully this is the answer! I know he cant diagnose, so i dont know exactly how she damaged her shoulder! But i may ask the vet if he feels he should check with x-rays etc just to make sure it is sorted now...but then not sure if would be any point if potentiall y corrected now!? What would be your suggestions?

The vet is ringing me tomorrow to discuss, so could just try her off the metacam for a bit and see if she better now!

But since osteopath, she a lot calmer in herself and very affectionate again! I feel awuful tho, my poor baby must have been in all this pain ever since the accident, at the time i didnt think, but i should of got the vets to do a full check of her all over, thats hindsight for you.

XxEmmaxX
 
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