Kissing spines treatment and rehab

[timbobs]

Posting here for traffic as no response in vet forum.

Ed was diagnosed with four Kissing Spines last week after a trip to Liphook for x-rays and had the steroid injections done.

Vet is back on Friday to have a feel and see how he's looking.

I'm not convinced that the injections will work as he has one where there is barely any space between them at all so I wanted to get people's thoughts and experiences on the ligament snip and rehab programs.

X-ray below- have circled the one which is very tight.

 

[LaVivaElDiva]

I’m also interested to know as I’m in a similar situation and opted for the injections. I’m not sure if she will respond well or no to them but I’ve only a year on my insurance to make a decision to go for lig snip

 

[timbobs]

I’m also interested to know as I’m in a similar situation and opted for the injections. I’m not sure if she will respond well or no to them but I’ve only a year on my insurance to make a decision to go for lig snip

Sorry to hear your horse has KS.

Sadly the injections didn't really work for Ed as he also had significant issues with his hind suspensories and he ended up being PTS a month after this post.

Have you checked for other issues with your horse as often KS is secondary/alongside other issues so it is worth checking them all over to see what you best course of action would be.

 

[ycbm]

TB I'm sorry your guy didn't make it, but I'm very pleased your vets gave you sound advice. Its driving me mad how many vets are recommending operating on horses which have other issues going on.

LVED, my horse had the ligament snip on five vertebrae. I would be very reluctant to have another done because I now believe it destabilises the spine. And mine was PTS before completely returning to work because he started to fit, though that was probably unrelated.

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[timbobs]

TB I'm sorry your guy didn't make it, but I'm very pleased your vets gave you sound advice. Its driving me mad how many vets are recommending operating on horses which have other issues going on.

LVED, my horse had the ligament snip on five vertebrae. I would be very reluctant to have another done because I now believe it destabilises the spine. And mine was PTS before completely returning to work because he started to fit, though that was probably unrelated.

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My vets were great. Unfortunately we didn't find the suspensory issues until after the KS. If we'd known about the hind leg problems I wouldn't have injected the KS as we would have known it wouldn't work.

I would definitely recommend to anyone finding KS to make sure there are no other issues as if there are problems elsewhere it's so hard to rehab them.

 

[Melody Grey]

My vets were great. Unfortunately we didn't find the suspensory issues until after the KS. If we'd known about the hind leg problems I wouldn't have injected the KS as we would have known it wouldn't work.

I would definitely recommend to anyone finding KS to make sure there are no other issues as if there are problems elsewhere it's so hard to rehab them.

From experience I’d definitely second getting a picture of the whole horse before proceeding with KS surgery. For anyone reading, there is also the question of whether the ligament snip or full surgery are the best course? For the example x-rayed above, I’m struggling to see how the ligament snip would help given the proximity of the spinal
Processes?

 

[ycbm]

It denerves the area MG. It works more because of that than because it allows the vertebrae more space.


Mine was born with them close behind the saddle and no amount of snipping was going to give them more room. But after it was done he couldn't feel them graunching any more.

I would never have another one done, though I might go for shaving or partial removal of processes.


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[LaVivaElDiva]

Looking at any of my xrays would you say a lig snip wouldn’t make a difference? This is all new to me and I don’t really know where to go. I’m staring to rehab her at the beginning of next week as I’ve given her a month off after having the injections. I’ve freeschooled her a few times and seems to be okay very flashy but she’s got her head up. (We haven’t worked on getting her to use her back properly yet) she’s footsore at the moment so she looks lame on one side as I was worried it was all to do with her back. I don’t have a rehab plan in place as vet/ physio haven’t really given me anything to go on so if anybody has any help that would be fab!

 

[timbobs]

Looking at any of my xrays would you say a lig snip wouldn’t make a difference? This is all new to me and I don’t really know where to go. I’m staring to rehab her at the beginning of next week as I’ve given her a month off after having the injections. I’ve freeschooled her a few times and seems to be okay very flashy but she’s got her head up. (We haven’t worked on getting her to use her back properly yet) she’s footsore at the moment so she looks lame on one side as I was worried it was all to do with her back. I don’t have a rehab plan in place as vet/ physio haven’t really given me anything to go on so if anybody has any help that would be fab!

I think you need to speak to your vet about the effectiveness of surgery as we don't know your horse and it is the vet's job to advise.

I really would go back to the vet and physio as you need a proper rehab plan in place.

As I said above, have you taken a look your mare holistically to ensure there aren't any other issues going on that you need to take into consideration alongside the KS?

I know you are fairly time-limited due to insurance, but there is no quick-fix for KS and the rehab takes a lot of time, patience and dedication so don't rush into decisions on surgery etc.

 

[Nasicus]

I personally know of three horses that have had the ligament snip. 1 to 2 years on, one (14.2 showjumper) is now retired to a hacking home, one (very well bred dressage mare) is now retired to be a broodmare and the last (a large showjumper) was PTS.
The first two were rehabbed correctly and slowly, the last was rushed.

Obviously a very small sample size, but it's enough to make me ponder the effectiveness of the snip.

 

[Jumoro]

Obviously every case is different and what works in one scenario may not work in another. That being said my horse was diagnosed with KS c 18 months ago. We initially tried injections and then proceeded for DSP surgery (bone shaving) almost a year ago. He was a good candidate for surgery and we didn't want t delay and risk him developing further issues due to compensations. Rehab has been slow (at times frustratingly so) and supervised by vet, physio and a very experienced instructor. The result for us has exceeded expectations - his way of going and demeanour are improved beyond recognition!

 

[be positive]

We are currently rehabbing one with minor KS, fortunately the surgeon who would have operated picked up a very slight issue with her hocks and wanted them treated before he would consider operating on the spine, she is now going very much better with an emphasis on getting her back right without surgery, we were told that KS is often secondary and that unless he felt the horse was otherwise 100% sound he would prefer not to operate, if she is not right in around 6 months then we will reconsider the op which will still be within the 12 months insurance window.
Rehab is a mix of lunging, long reining, all long and low, polework, hacking and flat schooling getting her going as well as possible, jumping has just started, this was were the issues showed originally, and all is going well, she is moving better, using herself better and seems more relaxed generally.

 

[Melody Grey]

It denerves the area MG. It works more because of that than because it allows the vertebrae more space.


Mine was born with them close behind the saddle and no amount of snipping was going to give them more room. But after it was done he couldn't feel them graunching any more.

I would never have another one done, though I might go for shaving or partial removal of processes.


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thanks- I’ve never considered the de-nerving effect of the ligament snip, but it makes sense. I still wouldn’t do it though!

 

[LaVivaElDiva]

I think you need to speak to your vet about the effectiveness of surgery as we don't know your horse and it is the vet's job to advise.

I really would go back to the vet and physio as you need a proper rehab plan in place.

As I said above, have you taken a look your mare holistically to ensure there aren't any other issues going on that you need to take into consideration alongside the KS?

I know you are fairly time-limited due to insurance, but there is no quick-fix for KS and the rehab takes a lot of time, patience and dedication so don't rush into decisions on surgery etc.

I definitely need a rehab plan otherwise I’m at a loss! She’s previously had SI issues which we’ve not had a problem with since (touch wood) thing I have noticed the most is she really used to struggle with me picking her back feet out and she would strike at me to let go and now she seem much much better and will let me hold for a longer period of time to the point when I can now scrub them out and clean them properly

 

[ycbm]

I would not operate on a horse which has a history of SI disease.

For me, it's too likely that the kissing spines is the way the horse has found of coping with SI strain, too likely that the SI issues will recur and too uncertain that operating will resolve her problems.

If your insurers will pay then that might change things, but don't be too hopeful for a full return to work.

What symptoms led to finding the DSP was kissing?

 

[sbloom]

I cannot possibly go against veterinary advice....however...if it was my horse I don't think I'd have any treatment, I would do intensive strengthening postural rehab with someone like Dan Wain Equestrian, supervised by a holistic vet such as Tom Beech. Poor posture has likely caused this, SI and hind legs can also suffer from the same cause, so don't treat the symptoms....

 

[LaVivaElDiva]

I would not operate on a horse which has a history of SI disease.

For me, it's too likely that the kissing spines is the way the horse has found of coping with SI strain, too likely that the SI issues will recur and too uncertain that operating will resolve her problems.

If your insurers will pay then that might change things, but don't be too hopeful for a full return to work.

What symptoms led to finding the DSP was kissing?

Symptoms included being really Goethe, starting to bite when putting rugs/ saddle on. Then riding it was head straight up short and choppy strides and not being able to relax and use her back correctly. Originally thought it was ulcers due to lack of grazing and going off of her feed but I knew that wasn’t the case.

 

[Bellaboo18]

Symptoms included being really Goethe, starting to bite when putting rugs/ saddle on. Then riding it was head straight up short and choppy strides and not being able to relax and use her back correctly. Originally thought it was ulcers due to lack of grazing and going off of her feed but I knew that wasn’t the case.

How come you knew that wasn't the case? Has she been scoped?

 

[LaVivaElDiva]

How come you knew that wasn't the case? Has she been scoped?

No she hasn’t, it was a case of which do I go for first. As if I went to have her scoped and had to pay a fortune for rectifying that issue I went to have her scanned for ks and it turned out she could never be ridden and she would be on constant pain it would have been the decision to PTS.

 

[Bellaboo18]

No she hasn’t, it was a case of which do I go for first. As if I went to have her scoped and had to pay a fortune for rectifying that issue I went to have her scanned for ks and it turned out she could never be ridden and she would be on constant pain it would have been the decision to PTS.

Yes I understand why you'd find the cause of the ulcers first but she may have them as a result of the KS pain.

 

[ycbm]

Have you any evidence that the KS is painful? Has she had injections that improve her? There are many horses with xrays like yours which appear to be in no pain, and it's quite possible that her behaviour is because of ulcers and not KS, they should have been investigated at the same time because if she has them she needs treating for them whether the KS is a problem or not.


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[Trouper]

I have had a KS op done and I would not do it again until I had tested every other inch of my horse's body to find out what else might be going on. It is often a symptom - not the cause. If you think about it, we often have "bad backs" caused by other things going on in our bodies or the way we are using them. Horses are no different.

 

[timbobs]

Have you any evidence that the KS is painful? Has she had injections that improve her? There are many horses with xrays like yours which appear to be in no pain, and it's quite possible that her behaviour is because of ulcers and not KS, they should have been investigated at the same time because if she has them she needs treating for them whether the KS is a problem or not.


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Exactly this!

 

[catembi]

Mine had 4 processes removed & a lig snip in 2015. We did local anaes injection which gave a really good result, but the surgery hasn't helped. He also finds it extremely hard to hold up one back foot for me to pick out & just kicks it all the time. I kind of wish I hadn't done it & had tried non surgical options, but the local anaes transformed him, & back then surgery was 'the thing'.

 

[Northern]

Have you any evidence that the KS is painful? Has she had injections that improve her? There are many horses with xrays like yours which appear to be in no pain, and it's quite possible that her behaviour is because of ulcers and not KS, they should have been investigated at the same time because if she has them she needs treating for them whether the KS is a problem or not.
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This is a good point. I've just found out my mare has KS (3 processes touching). Her general demeanor, non-reaction to palpitation and riding and lack of response to injections is leading us to think it doesn't affect her as much as we thought it did. We are now looking at her SI area and she will be injected there next week and will then start a rehab program with poles and long straight hacks out. Her initial symptoms was "bunny hopping" under saddle in the canter and lack of performance/push from behind.

 

[Goldenstar]

One of mine had five reshaped he was an older horses when we got him and despite passing the vet within three weeks I knew we had something going on .
the rehab was straight forward but it was time consuming at one point we where working (riderless ) in the school five times daily ten mins a time it was tough and it was winter .
However watching the whole shape of the horse change spurred me on and he came through great.
sadly I lost him to bowel tumours perhaps the beginning of the discomfort from these caused the KS his conformation was great .

 

[Flicker]

Symptoms included being really Goethe, starting to bite when putting rugs/ saddle on. Then riding it was head straight up short and choppy strides and not being able to relax and use her back correctly. Originally thought it was ulcers due to lack of grazing and going off of her feed but I knew that wasn’t the case.

LVED you mentioned in a previous post that your horse also had SI dysfunction. The behaviour you describe here is identical to my mare’s who did have definite SI dysfunction and never exhibited any pain through her back and spine (confirmed by vet and physio on examination at her many lameness workups). If it was my horse, I would be tempted to fully investigate the SI first.

 

[sbloom]

Please see that these symptoms are connected, SI and KS so often go together, don't just treat the symptoms. And a lot of the basic rehab programmes suggested (or barely suggested in many of my customers' cases) don't address posture, hence don't change the horse's basic way of going, they just get them back to fitness. And I agree that there are more and more things seen on scans and xrays that do not directly correlate with pain and/or other symptoms. Don't treat on the basis of xrays alone but I'd say treat with caution and look to addressing the underlying cause as a priority.

 

[Teaboy]

I think a heck of a lot can be done without surgery with physio and correct stretching and strengthening work.