Kissing Spines update - bad news

Wagtail.....as I said on your other thread....back to your vet, find a GOOD physio and ditch the rug.

Go with what these guys say as they can see your horse, none of us here can. As a generalisation though, i would expect a couple of weeks off work to reduce inflamation/bruising.....your vet may assist this with medication if he feels appropriate. Feed hay and water off the ground if stabled.

Long reining is a defo. Utilise hills if you can....that way walking WILL build the necessary condition. TENS is useful on the muscle = long dorsi but I would not use on the supr lig myself.

You need to work the abdominals in order to strengthen the top line; muscles work in pairs - antagonists, yes? So, build up to raised poles in long reins. There's also in hand exercises over telegraph poles that a good physio can show you.

Once under saddle, long and low.

HTH.
 
Wagtail said:
Oh heck, now I don't know what to do. I think he needs a break but I don't want him to lose muscle.

Regarding long reining, if you don't do more than walk, how does it build up enough muscle? Does pole work in work build up muscle?

I wonder if I should give him a few months off from the more high pressure stuff and just long rein him every other day? I just don't know what to do for the best. I will talk to the surgeon at Rossdales and see what she says on Tuesday.
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Long riening in walk over poles at different heights and distances is very effective we did this with one who was recovering fron a pelvis issue and I was amazed how much the horse built up.
I got fit too !
 
I feel a bit more positive this morning. I started to think more carefully about what happened on Friday and how maybe it was remembered pain. I have been back riding him without problems until the head tossing started on the lunge and ridden, so I ceased the riding and just lunged. Head tossing stopped after the chiro visit, and so on Friday I decided to ride him again after a break of 2 weeks. Because he had head tossed the last time, I decided to put a running martingale on just in case, as the head tossing was very violent when it happened. I tied him up and he tensed as soon as he felt the martingale. He had not worn one since before his op, so maybe that took him back to what he felt like before the surgery. Added to that, I immediately tightened the girth to the second hole (whereas I have been just hooking it on to the first hole to start with and gradually tightened it to the fourth hole to ride). Then he freaked.

So after thinking about it some more this morning, I decided to try him in the pessoa (which he couldn't tolerate at all before his op) and he was fine! So I have decided to step back a few weeks and just long rein and do pessoa work with him then gradually introduce the saddle again and see what happens. I am more hopeful after this morning.
 
I'm so pleased you are feeling more positive :) I also used a kavalkade HO as well as the Pessoa which are relatively cheap and encourage a good stretch. After a month of Pessoa work spirit became quite stale and this added a bit of variety. Good luck and keep us updated, I'll keep my fingers crossed that all goes well :)
 
Sorry to hear about your boy. I haven't read all the threads, but have you tried a thermal scan? This worked for me in helping to identify a problem without having to touch the horse. As a result I avoided unnecessary kissing spines surgery and my horse is back eventing. I appreciate you have had the surgery so your situation is different, but even so I know you want to get to the bottom of your problem and whilst I'm no expert scanning my horse was the best thing I could have done. He then had chiropractor treatment under sedation and a saddle refitting (airbags). My horse was clearly in pain, he didn't want me to get on and my regular osteopath couldn't get near him. I don't think horses act that violently just from a memory of pain. The vet xrayed his back and identified an overlapping spinal process but on referral it was inconclusive and they wanted him to travel for further testing. Interestingly the thermal scan did not identify kissing spines, but poor saddle fitting and lack of bloodflow to a hindleg. It helped me and being non invasive did not cause my boy any more stress. It may be worth a try.
 
I just wanted to post to say well done Wagtail, very brave and IMHO, absolutely the right thing to do. I think most of us that have been through this process have suffered at least one or two setbacks along the way, it does feel like the end of the world when it happens, generally because you are so emotionally exhausted with the whole thing and it is so so tiring. The phrase I would use for the rehab is "Take your time, but don't waste it!"

I was very careful with Ryan and made a huge point of regular work but not overdoing it or pushing too far too fast and after 6yrs he is still mended, I have also helped quite a few other horses who have suffered from this and the long reining always really proves a turning point when the owner is struggling, my vets believe now that this is the right approach too. Well done on the pessoa, my horse couldn't tolerate this but in time post op he did and is now completely unbothered by it, but you may want to start long reining without first and gradually introduce it as he relaxes more, as you don't want to enforce an outline when he is tense if you feel he is still worrying a bit, it needs to be a pleasant experience for him. Aim for a long low correct stretch where he sinks into contact, with 2 lines you can ask for this as you go along. Also I evolved from long reining with a roller to then long reining in a saddle just so he could understand the saddle wouldn't hurt, it made it much easier when I got back on which he was also massively unbothered by much to my surprise!

Keep going, nothing wrong with a day off if you aren't in the mood to tackle it but I think it's brilliant you have thought long and hard about the best way forward and there is nothing wrong in going back a few steps, you will have a stronger and emotionally more relaxed horse for it in the long run .
 
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Marmaduke said:
Sorry to hear about your boy. I haven't read all the threads, but have you tried a thermal scan? This worked for me in helping to identify a problem without having to touch the horse. As a result I avoided unnecessary kissing spines surgery and my horse is back eventing. I appreciate you have had the surgery so your situation is different, but even so I know you want to get to the bottom of your problem and whilst I'm no expert scanning my horse was the best thing I could have done. He then had chiropractor treatment under sedation and a saddle refitting (airbags). My horse was clearly in pain, he didn't want me to get on and my regular osteopath couldn't get near him. I don't think horses act that violently just from a memory of pain. The vet xrayed his back and identified an overlapping spinal process but on referral it was inconclusive and they wanted him to travel for further testing. Interestingly the thermal scan did not identify kissing spines, but poor saddle fitting and lack of bloodflow to a hindleg. It helped me and being non invasive did not cause my boy any more stress. It may be worth a try.
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Thats really intersting, Marmaduke can you give us some more information? i.e. did you see/feel he had a problem in his hindleg before the thermal scan? Also sorry for my ignorance but i don't understand how a vet can identify an overlap from an x-ray and then for it to be inconclusive on a referal?

Please PM me if you would prefer.
 
Goldenstar said:
How about trying a lunging rope as a stepping stone to the Pessoa much more freedom for the horse a first.
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Thanks. He has been working really well in the pessoa for weeks, it's just that I had not used it since he started head tossing. I thought it would show me whether he had, indeed reverted back to how he was before the op if I tried it again. He used to rear and throw himself over before the op. The fact that he was not phased at all by it told me he had not completely reverted back to how he was before the op.

amandap said:
I'm sure you have a body worker to advise but I was wondering if something such as this would help him? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKEL...xt=C356c679FDOEgsToPDskIbQAn_c_1TmmnFmrmZMt-a

A much longer video is here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=CpXq04194Do
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Thanks, I will take a look.


islandspirit said:
I'm so pleased you are feeling more positive :) I also used a kavalkade HO as well as the Pessoa which are relatively cheap and encourage a good stretch. After a month of Pessoa work spirit became quite stale and this added a bit of variety. Good luck and keep us updated, I'll keep my fingers crossed that all goes well :)
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Thank you. Yes he did become a bit stale before I started riding him.

Marmaduke said:
Sorry to hear about your boy. I haven't read all the threads, but have you tried a thermal scan? This worked for me in helping to identify a problem without having to touch the horse. As a result I avoided unnecessary kissing spines surgery and my horse is back eventing. I appreciate you have had the surgery so your situation is different, but even so I know you want to get to the bottom of your problem and whilst I'm no expert scanning my horse was the best thing I could have done. He then had chiropractor treatment under sedation and a saddle refitting (airbags). My horse was clearly in pain, he didn't want me to get on and my regular osteopath couldn't get near him. I don't think horses act that violently just from a memory of pain. The vet xrayed his back and identified an overlapping spinal process but on referral it was inconclusive and they wanted him to travel for further testing. Interestingly the thermal scan did not identify kissing spines, but poor saddle fitting and lack of bloodflow to a hindleg. It helped me and being non invasive did not cause my boy any more stress. It may be worth a try.
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I would love to try the thermal imaging. Unfortunately, I have already spent thousands on this horse's various problems. If I hit a wall with this, I think it would be a good direction to go in. Pleased your horse is recovered and didn't have to face surgery.

BethH said:
I just wanted to post to say well done Wagtail, very brave and IMHO, absolutely the right thing to do. I think most of us that have been through this process have suffered at least one or two setbacks along the way, it does feel like the end of the world when it happens, generally because you are so emotionally exhausted with the whole thing and it is so so tiring. The phrase I would use for the rehab is "Take your time, but don't waste it!"

I was very careful with Ryan and made a huge point of regular work but not overdoing it or pushing too far too fast and after 6yrs he is still mended, I have also helped quite a few other horses who have suffered from this and the long reining always really proves a turning point when the owner is struggling, my vets believe now that this is the right approach too. Well done on the pessoa, my horse couldn't tolerate this but in time post op he did and is now completely unbothered by it, but you may want to start long reining without first and gradually introduce it as he relaxes more, as you don't want to enforce an outline when he is tense if you feel he is still worrying a bit, it needs to be a pleasant experience for him. Aim for a long low correct stretch where he sinks into contact, with 2 lines you can ask for this as you go along. Also I evolved from long reining with a roller to then long reining in a saddle just so he could understand the saddle wouldn't hurt, it made it much easier when I got back on which he was also massively unbothered by much to my surprise!

Keep going, nothing wrong with a day off if you aren't in the mood to tackle it but I think it's brilliant you have thought long and hard about the best way forward and there is nothing wrong in going back a few steps, you will have a stronger and emotionally more relaxed horse for it in the long run .
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Thank you. Yes, I intend to increase the long reining and reduce the pessoa work in the next few weeks.
 
Wagtail said:
I feel a bit more positive this morning. I started to think more carefully about what happened on Friday and how maybe it was remembered pain. I have been back riding him without problems until the head tossing started on the lunge and ridden, so I ceased the riding and just lunged. Head tossing stopped after the chiro visit, and so on Friday I decided to ride him again after a break of 2 weeks. Because he had head tossed the last time, I decided to put a running martingale on just in case, as the head tossing was very violent when it happened. I tied him up and he tensed as soon as he felt the martingale. He had not worn one since before his op, so maybe that took him back to what he felt like before the surgery. Added to that, I immediately tightened the girth to the second hole (whereas I have been just hooking it on to the first hole to start with and gradually tightened it to the fourth hole to ride). Then he freaked.

So after thinking about it some more this morning, I decided to try him in the
pessoa (which he couldn't tolerate at all before his op) and he was fine! So I
have decided to step back a few weeks and just long rein and do pessoa work
with him then gradually introduce the saddle again and see what happens. I
am more hopeful after this morning.
Click to expand...

That's the ticket! Be flexible and try to relax..hard I know believe me I've shed so many tears for my boy even now he brings a lump to my throat when I think what he's been through. Good to be prepared to think things through and change your plans and views, whatever you do is not going to damage him, even if he loses muscle.
Oh....and I don't agree that you should follow everything your vet, physio etc says, looking back there were instincts I had which I wish I'd acted on now, it would have avoided further damage for my boy. I now look at all options and make my own mind up, I know my horse better than anyone else.
 
Very very sorry to hear this wagtail :-( How long has it been since your horse had the op?

I gave my mare almost 6 months off straight after her op. I then started the lunging without and gadgets at first and then introduced the pessoa. Once I was back on board, all I did was lunge and hack her all through the summer of 2011.

Over the winter I introduced schooling and on tuesday of this week I had my first proper lesson on her in nearly 3 years, I shed a tear when my RI had a sit on her and told me that you would never know she'd had the ks op. My mare was floating.

I'm sorry to be happy on your sad post but I believe that the key to my mare's happy outcome was plenty of time off after the op before introducing any work.

If your chap will be happy to be at grass during the summer, then give him some time but I completely understand what you say about him not being a good candidate for retirement. You know your horse and you must do what is best all round.

If you are near me I would be happy for you to come and meet my mare. Not much comfort I know but it might help. I do find that she needs a very good warmup routine before she can get going nicely and I did and still do lots and lots of lateral work with her in hand and under saddle. x
 
Thanks, Mozler and Tictac.I have spoken to the vet at Rossdales and she says to give him some time off. I just hope he doesn't kill me before I get back riding him. He really is a handful. I can't wait until he's out 24/7.
 
I've just read this post Wagtail - I'm so sorry to hear you've had such a setback after such a good start. But as you've said, the martingale could have been a trigger. My last TB couldn't bear martingales and would bolt if I put one on him.
As someone else suggested, I would go out long-reining on the roads if you can - personally I would to it without a saddle or roller - just two lunge reins to the bit if you're confident enough to do it as it will allow him to build up the muscle along the back without any restriction. Do keep us updated. I hope you sort it out - I know you're like me when we think of our horses and we'll do anything we can to give them a happy and pain free life even if that means we never get to ride ourselves!
 
Nice to hear TicTacs positive story as well. What a good idea to see someone's horse who has been through it, certainly if you saw my boy you would never think there had been an issue, he is out 24/7 and so chilled now in everything, hacking him is a total pleasure and he has grown up! Such a difference from the mad lune during the rehab, I feel I've only just got over the trauma of it all!
 
Holly Hocks said:
I've just read this post Wagtail - I'm so sorry to hear you've had such a setback after such a good start. But as you've said, the martingale could have been a trigger. My last TB couldn't bear martingales and would bolt if I put one on him.
As someone else suggested, I would go out long-reining on the roads if you can - personally I would to it without a saddle or roller - just two lunge reins to the bit if you're confident enough to do it as it will allow him to build up the muscle along the back without any restriction. Do keep us updated. I hope you sort it out - I know you're like me when we think of our horses and we'll do anything we can to give them a happy and pain free life even if that means we never get to ride ourselves!
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Yes, he has a home for life with me, so long as he's happy. My main problem is handling him during times of limited turnout in the winter. He just gets so excited going out and coming in. I won't let anyone else handle him in case they get hurt, but that is extremely limiting if I have to go anywhere. :( It's strange, because he is an angel to handle at any other time. I have to walk him the same way to go and work in the arena, and he is well mannered and calm, but as soon as he knows it's his play time, he tries to 'take out' every fence and gate we pass (has broken lots). He's only playing, but he's going to hurt himself, or worse, someone else. He also goes to play bite me, not quite making contact, but it's not much fun leading him! :eek:
 
xxMozlarxx said:
Nice to hear TicTacs positive story as well. What a good idea to see someone's horse who has been through it, certainly if you saw my boy you would never think there had been an issue, he is out 24/7 and so chilled now in everything, hacking him is a total pleasure and he has grown up! Such a difference from the mad lune during the rehab, I feel I've only just got over the trauma of it all!
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Being out 24/7 would certainly help my boy. Unfortunately, I just don't have the right type of land here. It is clay soil and can only withstand horses out 24/7 during the summer. Our hacking is also what I would term as 'advanced'. Although there is plenty of off road riding a few minutes away, we have to cross a busy A road to get to it and my boy is too excitable to risk. I worry about falling off and him running home over that road. :eek::( So until I can get him 100% under saddle, I really can't risk hacking him. I also can't box him somewhere due to the possibility of him freaking out when I try to tack him up anywhere new. I really thought before this setback that the panicking when saddled was a thing of the past and was all ready to start taking him places, even to the gallops when he was fit enough. But now, I daren't. It is so disappointing.

But it does help to hear about other success stories, and hopefully, this is just a non permanent setback. :)
 
Hi Wagtail,

With regard to turn out, and i accept that this could very well be shot down in flames and not everyone will agree with this, but have you considered giving him a mild sedative to just take the edge off?

My lad is on 'box-rest' at the moment, but i have agreed with the vet that he can be out in a very restricted paddock. For the first 5 days i have given him some sedalin, very mild dose just to take the edge off so he doesn't lune around. So far it has worked and he is much calmer so that he now doesn't need it. He is in a strict routine, out in the restricted paddock with grass during the day, and then moved to another restricted paddock (no grass) with stable for shelter at night.

I've never been one for doing this but under advice from the vet i have given it a try and it seems to be working, so far.

Good luck and i hope you manage to sort this small set-back out.
 
Thanks. The problem is that if he needs retiring, he would need sedating for the rest of his retirement, as he has been going out every day for four months now and the only time he is slightly more calm is when he has been worked really hard. I don't disagree with sedating animals that are coming off box rest though. But he is fully fit apart from being ridden.
 
Sedation is necessary in my view during rehab,i only wish my vet had been more forthcoming about it, we would have avoided more damage. I would always ask for sedaline and potassium bromide for rehabbing horses now.
 
xxMozlarxx said:
Sedation is necessary in my view during rehab,i only wish my vet had been more forthcoming about it, we would have avoided more damage. I would always ask for sedaline and potassium bromide for rehabbing horses now.
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For sedation I used Zyklene for my horse in the end. He had Sedalin for three days but on the fourth day I turned him out without, and he went mental and rehurt his leg!

Zyklene was the only thing that helped. Expensive (about £3 per day) but worth every penny.
 
I agree about using a sedative or calmer. My horse had chronic pain (sacro illiac dysfunction) and was terribly aggressive. He is extremely sharp and a real worrier, so I used FirstHorse - RelaxMe and found that this calmer really worked and helped him to be much less reactive and chilled. I have heard good reports too about Zylkene.
He is off it now, but has had the winter turned away.

Personally I think to be turned away is brilliant medicine, but do agree that you wouldn't want to be starting your horse in the colder weather. My horse has self exercised amazingly and almost ploughed his paddocks through this. Just to reassure you that 'walk work' can build muscle - my WB gained 4cm of gluteus muscle in around 6 weeks through in hand pessoa walk work and using a raised pole.
 
No wonder you are upset after coming so far. sometimes when they have know real painjust a twinge can send their muscles into spasm as a sort of self protection against more pain. I feel for you & hope it's just a minor setback. (((hugs)))
 
Tiffany said:
No wonder you are upset after coming so far. sometimes when they have know real painjust a twinge can send their muscles into spasm as a sort of self protection against more pain. I feel for you & hope it's just a minor setback. (((hugs)))
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Thanks, yes it is so disheartening. I have decided to leave him alone for a few weeks. Hopefully once this spell of bad weather finishes I can get him out 24/7 and start again when he's more chilled. At least he seems more than happy in himself at the moment. He's making a real nuisance of himself :rolleyes:
 
I have only just caught up with this and I am so sorry Wagtail, it all appeared to be so positive for your boy. You know your land and whether it is possible but is it worth sectioning of a bit so that he can be turned out full time, we live 14 out on wet clay soil and tbh, the past winter, it has really coped well because it hasn't got waterlogged at all. It may just be worth it to help keep you both safe until you know where you are going with his recovery. I really hope that you find a solution that suits you both, and I hope that, with a little time off, your boy makes a full recovery. x
 
Dolcé;10622074 said:
I have only just caught up with this and I am so sorry Wagtail, it all appeared to be so positive for your boy. You know your land and whether it is possible but is it worth sectioning of a bit so that he can be turned out full time, we live 14 out on wet clay soil and tbh, the past winter, it has really coped well because it hasn't got waterlogged at all. It may just be worth it to help keep you both safe until you know where you are going with his recovery. I really hope that you find a solution that suits you both, and I hope that, with a little time off, your boy makes a full recovery. x
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Thanks. I will be turning him out 24/7 as soon as this really cold wet weather improves. He shares with my mare who had a serious shoulder injury two years ago and who I had to retire. She is 100% sound now but I just can't risk her out in the field when it is so slippery. She insists on galloping flat out with my boy! So as soon as it is safe to turn back out in the field again, then they will go out 24/7 with a field shelter. At the moment I am limited to turning them out for 4 hours in the sand manege.
 
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