Kissing Spines - would like to know of your experiences and thoughts on this

[Tnavas]

Having never come accross this before I am interested in knowing the history of horses diagnosed with this problem.
What made you consider this as a problem?
At what age was your horse broken?
What breed is your horse?
How much work did your horse do as a youngster?
At what age did he start competing?
What discipline does he do?
At what age did he start jumping?
Does he live in or out or a mixture of both?
How successful was the surgery?
Shod or unshod?
What sort of work does he do?
Any other thoughts or ideas on this condition.
A side on picture standing square (if pos) would be great, to see the shape of the back.
What type of saddle do you use?

Look forward to your responses.

 

[trina1982]

I watched a demo today by Gillian Higgins (horses inside out http://www.horsesinsideout.com/) and i sat wondering the very same things as you about kissing spines. I will try to ask her tomorrow her opinion because i found myself wondering if it was conformational or (more likely, in my humble opinion) to be postural or trauma related.

Will look forward to the replies!

Trina x

 

[Tnavas]

Thanks Trina - my thoughts are that it seems to be an on going trend now to break and work them harder at a younger age than we used to 30 - 40 years ago.

I see horses broken at 2, being schooled and in the dressage arena at 4 already working at Elementary level. Also the 4 & 5yr old jumping series encourage people to produce their horses earlier.

We never used to break in until rising 4, then light hacking and basic schooling - maybe Prelim dressage at rising 5, then taking at least a year to progress to the next level.

Would you be able to ask her what she thinks about this - Thanks in advance.

 

[trina1982]

No problem, as i said i meant to ask today but never caught her to ask. Maybe i'll have to be brave and ask during the demo

I also learnt today that the average age for sports horses to 'break down' is about 8. I'm intrigued to know where that figure came from (and am off to google) but sadly i am not surprised

Sign of the times i think, everything has to be done yesterday.

Trina x

 

[dominobrown]

My horse has a KS (had an op)

Having never come accross this before I am interested in knowing the history of horses diagnosed with this problem.
What made you consider this as a problem? He was barely rideable, expolding, he also brushed behind
At what age was your horse broken? 3 1/2
What breed is your horse? TB x WB
How much work did your horse do as a youngster? Broekn as 3 year old, roughed off in winter, came back into work a 4 year old for a summer then roughed off again
At what age did he start competing? Well he has always been shown inhand, and lightly shown under saddle as a 4 year old, he has done very little when I bought him at 6, been to a few unaffilated shows etc
What discipline does he do? He events now
At what age did he start jumping? I think he would be 4 or 5 would be the first time he saw a fence!
Does he live in or out or a mixture of both? Out all the time in summer, in at night in winter. At his old yard when in work he would be in but turned out for a few hours in the afternoon. As a youngster and when out of work he lived out
How successful was the surgery? So far so good, he had it june 09, and seems to be fine. He still has issues but he is nothing like he used to be
Shod or unshod? shod
What sort of work does he do? Medium work- he is just a intro level at the mo, hunts etc in winter
Any other thoughts or idieas on this condition.
A side on picture standing square (if pos) would be great, to see the shape of the back.
What type of saddle do you use? Had spent loads on saddles before op! I thought that was the problem. He had a Jeffries VSD before op (wasn't in that before I bought him) and then I bought a peassoa close contact saddle. He also has a dressage saddle, cant remembe the brand, begins with E i think

Look forward to your responses.

He has very good confo (was a show horse) so the vet said it would be unlikely to have a KS. They did an x-ray and found that he did. (if i can find the x-rays I will post pics of them on here). He has a large gap between the spinal processes behind the withers, resulting in the processes being close together further along in the Thorasic (sp?) area. I think he is op was around t6/t7.

I am not sure what caused it. He certaintly wasn't over worked as youngster. He had a very 'traditional' childhood!

 

[Tnavas]

My horse has a KS (had an op)
He has very good confo (was a show horse) so the vet said it would be unlikely to have a KS. They did an x-ray and found that he did. (if i can find the x-rays I will post pics of them on here). He has a large gap between the spinal processes behind the withers, resulting in the processes being close together further along in the Thorasic (sp?) area. I think he is op was around t6/t7.

I am not sure what caused it. He certaintly wasn't over worked as youngster. He had a very 'traditional' childhood!

Thanks

 

[trina1982]

Thats really interesting domino brown - very good history there! So, i suppose the other question might be 'did he have any relatives that had a similar issue?' and 'how was he worked'.
I suspect, if i were a horse, I would have had kissing spine because my posture was so hollow (now a lot better) that the bit inbetween the vertebrae had begun to narrow.
So, was this horse worked correctly - what was the physios opinion (i'm guessing you've had lots of physio to do with your horse, but probably not involving sitting on a ball lol)?

What's your opinion on what causes kissing spine?
Is it because we are more aware of it that we see more of it nowadays do you think?

Trina x

 

[china]

Having never come accross this before I am interested in knowing the history of horses diagnosed with this problem.
What made you consider this as a problem? irregular striding and very cold backed. picked up on a bone scan.

At what age was your horse broken? ex racer so prob about 2 years old

What breed is your horse? tb

How much work did your horse do as a youngster? race training and one national hunt race

At what age did he start competing? two (racing) eight (sj/xc/dressage. all low level.)

What discipline does he do? sj,xc,bd,funrides etc

At what age did he start jumping? no idea

Does he live in or out or a mixture of both? bit of both. now lives out as much as he can.

How successful was the surgery? no surgery required. mild ks at the moment. managment to prevent it getting any worse

Shod or unshod? now unshod due to navicular

What sort of work does he do? not currently in work

Any other thoughts or ideas on this condition.
A side on picture standing square (if pos) would be great, to see the shape of the back.

What type of saddle do you use? gfs fitted leather


Look forward to your responses.

not the best photo

 

[Tnavas]

Thanks those of you who have contributed - there must be more of you out there

 

[MissMincePie&Brandy]

What made you consider this as a problem?
* Bucking and dangerous, erratic behaviour when ridden.

At what age was your horse broken?
* 2? (I think).

What breed is your horse?
* TB

How much work did your horse do as a youngster?
* A lot, racing as a 3 year old.

At what age did he start competing?
* 3

What discipline does he do?
* He was a NH racehorse

At what age did he start jumping?
* 3

Does he live in or out or a mixture of both?
* When racing he was mainly in.

How successful was the surgery?
* His condition is too bad, so vet and I decided it would not be worth the trauma for him, as he has other soundness and wear & tear issues as well.

Shod or unshod?
* shod (he has navicular, so has corrective shoeing for this)

What sort of work does he do?
* retired now - non ridden.

Any other thoughts or ideas on this condition.
* His whole skeletal frame is in a bad way. He is now 10 years old, and he's worn out basically. He has arthritic changes in many of his joints, and lytic lesions throughout his bones all over, including all along his spine. My horse is 17.2hh and at the time in his life when he was being broken and in training to race, he would have been a very immature baby, with very soft bones. My horse should not have been broken until at least 4 IMO, but by 4 he was jump racing regularly! I also believe this is probably why he has navicular as well.

A side on picture standing square (if pos) would be great, to see the shape of the back.
* On the outside my horse looks stunning and the picture of health. He still trots up sound - 'though I do have him on bute, and joint supps.
He actually passed a 5 stage vetting at the age of 8, done by the racing yads vet when I bought him (although my own vet has told me he should not have passed any vetting, but that is a different subject!)

What type of saddle do you use?
* I've spend thousands on saddles, thinking the bucking was due to that. His last saddle was a custom made Albion K2 jump saddle. I chose it as the blocks were good for sitting to an unpredictable highly strung bucking horse!

 

[trina1982]

Hi. I never got to ask today, but i did have a chat with a rep from the saddle research trust. Her gut feel was that saddles and posture play a big role, but also (as i suspected) they are now more often diagnosed - rather than horses being classed as 'cold backed' or simply naughty - so there appears to be more cases than 30 years ago but that may not necessarily be the case. I asked if there was any current research into this and she couldn't say specifically, but she did recall a study on racehorse cadavers that revealed something like 90% had some degree of kissing spine.
I'm going to have a google and see what i find. If I were to do an equine degree this would be a great dissertation subject!

Any more examples??
Trina

 

[dominobrown]

Thats really interesting domino brown - very good history there! So, i suppose the other question might be 'did he have any relatives that had a similar issue?' and 'how was he worked'.
I suspect, if i were a horse, I would have had kissing spine because my posture was so hollow (now a lot better) that the bit inbetween the vertebrae had begun to narrow.
So, was this horse worked correctly - what was the physios opinion (i'm guessing you've had lots of physio to do with your horse, but probably not involving sitting on a ball lol)?

What's your opinion on what causes kissing spine?
Is it because we are more aware of it that we see more of it nowadays do you think?

Trina x

I have already written a reply to this the my laptop went crazy. I have helped back his brothers and sisters, and I have worked with his dam and sire. None have had this porblem though we normally back them at 3 or 4 then sell them so if they have devloped this later in life I don't know.
The said horse has never been in draw reins etc ever, and was brought on very slowly. The 3 years olds do mostly hacking and aren't really schooled until they are 4.

The vet who did his operation said thecommon causes could be-
-Genetic
-caused by a bad back and compensating
No one is really sure, but I think it was pre-natal.

My horse has quite high withers but good confo. He has been checked regulary by the back person since the age of 4.

p.s
I don't understand how these National hunt horses are running at 3 years of age over fences when the min age is 4??? Most national hunt horse aren't backed until they are 3/4.

 

[trina1982]

I have already written a reply to this the my laptop went crazy. I have helped back his brothers and sisters, and I have worked with his dam and sire. None have had this porblem though we normally back them at 3 or 4 then sell them so if they have devloped this later in life I don't know.
The said horse has never been in draw reins etc ever, and was brought on very slowly. The 3 years olds do mostly hacking and aren't really schooled until they are 4.

The vet who did his operation said thecommon causes could be-
-Genetic
-caused by a bad back and compensating
No one is really sure, but I think it was pre-natal.

My horse has quite high withers but good confo. He has been checked regulary by the back person since the age of 4.

p.s
I don't understand how these National hunt horses are running at 3 years of age over fences when the min age is 4??? Most national hunt horse aren't backed until they are 3/4.

Sounds like it was just really bad luck - glad he is getting over it and is still rideable. Onward and upward!
Can't answer about NH - i know nothing

Trina x

 

[Ginger Bear]

What made you consider this as a problem? She would flinch when her back was touched, brushed etc & stick her ears back & buck especially when jumpingAt what age was your horse broken? 2What breed is your horse? TBHow much work did your horse do as a youngster? Probably a lot, racing training
At what age did he start competing? 2/3 at racingWhat discipline does he do? Now, she does SJ, fun rides, dressage, hackingAt what age did he start jumping? Unsure, jumping with us as a 4 yoDoes he live in or out or a mixture of both? In at night, out during the dayHow successful was the surgery? Chose not to have surgery done., managed by doing a lot of lunging in a pessoa & schooling & had shock waves therapy
Shod or unshod? ShodWhat sort of work does he do?
Any other thoughts or ideas on this condition. I believe that in most horses it is caused by doing to much too youngA side on picture standing square (if pos) would be great, to see the shape of the back.
What type of saddle do you use? Thoroughgood Sythetic saddle as it's light on her back

 

[Foxhunter49]

I was born curious and always felt that to understand the outside of a horse you have to know the inside. So, when I have had a horse put down I have never been afraid to go to the hunt to see what the problem was.

I have seen many horses with what is now called 'kissing spine' that have not been broken early nor shown any signs of cold back or other problems.

Nowadays it seems to be a common practice for vets to diagnose this and often will ask if the horse is insured, if it is they will suggest surgery.

I have had people bring 'problem' horses that their vets have diagnosed with suspected kissing spine and a good chiropractor will release the tension across the back, usually caused through misalignment in the diagonal shoulder/hind quarter.
By using a third person (the horse counting as one) a practitioner using Applied Kinesiology will be able not only to diagnose where the horse is misaligned but which way and rectify with manipulation. Any tension across the back is immediately released so you get no more cold back although it might take the horse a few days to realise this because it will be expecting it to still hurt. Very rarely is a horse misaligned through its actual spine.

I have also known a couple of horses have this operation and it made very little difference.

 

[montysmum1]

This is potentially a naive question so apologies now!!

Is kissing spines something that the horse is always born with, or can they develop it as a result of injury, or simply over time?

If a horse has kissing spines, will there always be behavioural signs/symptoms of pain?

 

[Wagtail]

Horse one
What made you consider this as a problem? Very sensitive to groom, stiffness in hinds when leading. Biting when girthing up. Not tried riding yet.
At what age was your horse broken?2
What breed is your horse?TB
How much work did your horse do as a youngster?Unraced 'due to mntal attitude'
At what age did he start competing?n/a
What discipline does he do?n/a
At what age did he start jumping?n/a
Does he live in or out or a mixture of both?Out 24/7 in summer, in at night in winter
How successful was the surgery?No surgery just cortizone injections
Shod or unshod?Unshod
What sort of work does he do?None at moment
Any other thoughts or ideas on this condition.Not at moment

Back looks lovely. You would neve on this earth suspect KS
What type of saddle do you use? tried both treeless and wintec

Horse Two
What made you consider this as a problem? Wouldn't stand still to mount or tack up. Bucking when ridden. Tail swishing ears pinned.
At what age was your horse broken?4
What breed is your horse?Cob
How much work did your horse do as a youngster?Riding school for a year age 4 - 5
At what age did he start competing?5
What discipline does he do?Showing, dressage, jumping
At what age did he start jumping?5
Does he live in or out or a mixture of both?Out 24/7 in summer, in at night in winter
How successful was the surgery?No surgery just cortizone injections
Shod or unshod?Shod in front
What sort of work does he do?About an hours schooling a day
Any other thoughts or ideas on this condition.Rider was very heavy and did not work him correctly over the back. Lessons improved her riding (now works him over his back)and along with the injections, horse seems to have made a full recovery

Back looks lovely. You would never suspect KS
What type of saddle do you use? Farrington and wintec GPs

 

[Wagtail]

This is a very interesting thread. It is especially notable that two of the TBs broken early also have navicular.

 

[Wagtail]

This is potentially a naive question so apologies now!!

Is kissing spines something that the horse is always born with, or can they develop it as a result of injury, or simply over time?

If a horse has kissing spines, will there always be behavioural signs/symptoms of pain?

Kissing spine can be either aquired or congenital.

 

[Samantha008]

It would make sense for racers to ge navicular, apparently 98% of navicular cases are due to us lovely humans.

Im now terrified as i think my horse may have KS. Hes on loan and from day one hes been very sensitive around his back! Hes an ISH and is 9 yrs old. He was started in Ireland so dont know his history. However. He backs away when i bring the saddle near him. He wont stand at a mounting block and bucks and rears. Though only bucks on hacks in canter/gallop and only rears on hacks when asked to stand still. His owner swears he has never had back trouble and it is simply him being excited.

Im not convinced. Although the saddle she provided was 19inchs long and ive bought him a new one, my saddle fitter was horrified as hes actually 17 and a half inches. So im thinking that might be a lot to blame :/ If this continues with new saddle will defo be getting out a vet!

Hope that works :/

 

[Wagtail]

Samantha008, I would certainly have your boy looked at. He is very croup high and has quite a sharp angle where his spine goes into his withers. It would not surprise me if his spinal processes were pretty close together, if not touching there. Having said that though, the two horses with KS at my yard have lovely shaped backs, so you never can tell without an xray.

 

[Samantha008]

Yeah, ive had it niggling in my head since i got him theres some back trouble. He is VERY sensitive on his back. Blooming horses. Has anyone ever had a horse that doesnt have issue after issue after issue.......

 

[ABC]

I'm paranoid too now (not about my horse, about a friends cob - he too shivers when his back is touch, threatens to kick when girth is done up etc)

What options are there if a horse is diagnosed with KS?

How much does treatment cost? (Cob is uninsured)

Are all horses able to have a good quality of life after treatment?

 

[MissMincePie&Brandy]

Samantha, the only way to find out is by xray. The behaviour is probably more likely to be for other reasons, but if you book him in for an xray, you'll know for sure. Then, if you can rule out KS, you can get your back man up to look at him. If he's been wearing an ill fitting saddle for a long time, then he may have muscle atrophy and tension that needs releasing and working on. Also, horses have long memories and often anticipate pain, so even though your saddle is now comfy, he may be reacting to a memory of the old uncomfortable one.

 

[Wagtail]

I'm paranoid too now (not about my horse, about a friends cob - he too shivers when his back is touch, threatens to kick when girth is done up etc)

What options are there if a horse is diagnosed with KS?

How much does treatment cost? (Cob is uninsured)

Are all horses able to have a good quality of life after treatment?

I have heard that you can treat mild cases of KS with just lunge work using a pessoa. Certainly the cob on my yard was cured by two sets of spinal injections (around £300 a time) and making him work long and low.

The TB is a much more severe case. His owner does not agree with lungeing, he is badly behaved long lining and she does not like the pessoa, and so he has not done any work at all since she got him. She is hoping to get on him once his saddle has been fitted later on in the year. So fingers crossed!

 

[ABC]

I have heard that you can treat mild cases of KS with just lunge work using a pessoa. Certainly the cob on my yard was cured by two sets of spinal injections (around £300 a time) and making him work long and low.

The TB is a much more severe case. His owner does not agree with lungeing, he is badly behaved long lining and she does not like the pessoa, and so he has not done any work at all since she got him. She is hoping to get on him once his saddle has been fitted later on in the year. So fingers crossed!

Ah, may tell my friend to start lunging the cob in the pessoa to see if there is an improvement. If not I think she'll have to get him x-rayed. I'm gutted for my friend, but the more I read about it the more I'm convinced cob is suffering from it.

 

[trina1982]

It would make sense for racers to ge navicular, apparently 98% of navicular cases are due to us lovely humans.

Im now terrified as i think my horse may have KS. Hes on loan and from day one hes been very sensitive around his back! Hes an ISH and is 9 yrs old. He was started in Ireland so dont know his history. However. He backs away when i bring the saddle near him. He wont stand at a mounting block and bucks and rears. Though only bucks on hacks in canter/gallop and only rears on hacks when asked to stand still. His owner swears he has never had back trouble and it is simply him being excited.

Im not convinced. Although the saddle she provided was 19inchs long and ive bought him a new one, my saddle fitter was horrified as hes actually 17 and a half inches. So im thinking that might be a lot to blame :/ If this continues with new saddle will defo be getting out a vet!

Hope that works :/

Hi. sorry to hear your boy is a bit unhappy. I would say his back doesn't look right, especially in the area behind where a saddle would fit. Also, as an observation (and only an observation - i have zero qualification o assess a horses posture), is his right hond foot more upright or is that a trick of the light/how he is standing? He looks as if he might have something going on in the right leg and hip maybe? I would definately get it looked at, especially as you know he had a badly fitted saddle previously and he does look a wee bit croup high. Have you thought of doing some equine pilates type stuff with him? I'm sure if you got a physio out they would recommend some stretches. Hope you get it sorted and please keep us updated

Trina x

 

[Tinypony]

Having never come accross this before I am interested in knowing the history of horses diagnosed with this problem.
What made you consider this as a problem?
At what age was your horse broken?
What breed is your horse?
How much work did your horse do as a youngster?
At what age did he start competing?
What discipline does he do?
At what age did he start jumping?
Does he live in or out or a mixture of both?
How successful was the surgery?
Shod or unshod?
What sort of work does he do?
Any other thoughts or ideas on this condition.
A side on picture standing square (if pos) would be great, to see the shape of the back.
What type of saddle do you use?

Look forward to your responses.

KS horses can be treated by injection and exercise or by an operation, but sometimes neither will work. It just depends on the individual case. And it can only be diagnosed by xray. I see a lot of people saying they think that a horse has KS, but it's guesswork unless you get the xray.

My filly started to look a tiny bit wrong and toe drag when she was a yearling. She was put through a variety of investigations including a bone scan, but her back wasn't xrayed. She is a pure bred Arab mare, from great competetive bloodlines, she always looked big, strong and with a leg at each corner.
She came in at night until she was about 18 months old, then lived out 24/7. Every now and then she would look a bit "wrong" but nothing you could put a finger on.
She was backed at 4 years old. Felt a bit "wrong" a few times, although normally she was very willing. Vets couldn't see anything. She was laid off until 5. I started to gently bring her back into work, using a Dartmoor Treefree saddle. She was never lunged, but did a fair amount of athletic on-line work quite happily. However, her rear end muscle seemed to be wasting rather than imp[roving. One day when I got on she exploded. The next day the chiro came and my mare had a wierd ridge of lumps all along the big muscle at the side of her neck, and one side of her wither looked enlarged. We called the vet. He hadn't seen her for a while and could immediately see the changes in her muscle development, she was starting to look like two horses stuck together. A bit powerful horse at the front and under-developed horse at the back. Off to horsepital. Xray of back. 6 vertebrae touching. Not a suitable candidate for the operation (behaviour-wise if for no other reason). They injected her spine while she was under, did a programme of work using a pessoa. As soon as I got on her again I was fairly sure that she was hurting. The vet came back and suspected that there was now something going on in her pelvis. I called it a day, she was sick of vets, and she's been retired in a level field with friends since she was 6 years old.

So not caused by saddle, lunging or backing young in that case. :-(

 

[Tinypony]

Samantha, if you're worried about your horse then get him checked over physically before starting to stress too much about KS. If you're concerned about hoof balance then maybe get a second opinion on that. Poor hoof balance can cause a host of problems for horses, and many horses are working with poor hoof balance.

 

[Wagtail]

Hi. sorry to hear your boy is a bit unhappy. I would say his back doesn't look right, especially in the area behind where a saddle would fit. Also, as an observation (and only an observation - i have zero qualification o assess a horses posture), is his right hond foot more upright or is that a trick of the light/how he is standing? He looks as if he might have something going on in the right leg and hip maybe? I would definately get it looked at, especially as you know he had a badly fitted saddle previously and he does look a wee bit croup high. Have you thought of doing some equine pilates type stuff with him? I'm sure if you got a physio out they would recommend some stretches. Hope you get it sorted and please keep us updated

Trina x

I agree with your observations. He appears to have some muscle wastage where the back of the saddle would be, and his hind legs do not look right. He is rather straight (slightly post legged) through his hocks forcing his hind pasterns to be bent forwards too much and putting strain on his pasterns and fetlock joints. He certainly looks quite uncomfortable behind. Contrastingly he has a lovely front end and legs.