GinaB
Well-Known Member
I hear people talknig about this all the time and was wondering if someone could shed some light as to what it is, how it affects a horse etc? Thanks!
Kissing Spines
- Thread starter GinaB
- Start date
rrose
Well-Known Member
the spine of the horse collapses on eah other. instead of the horses spine pointing up the tilt over if you understand. my mums horse had it and was sadly put to sleep. an operation is now avalible where they take the top bit off... but there is a risk as the horse may not be able to be ridden again!
seabiscuit
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
the spine of the horse collapses on eah other. instead of the horses spine pointing up the tilt over if you understand.
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Have never heard of it described like that! I understood that it was that the vertebrate are too close together, causing rubbing, friction and thus inflammation and bony changes.
My horse had it, had the operation in April, (he had 3 vertebrate removed) and is now a new man! H'ell be going eventing next year. You wouldnt recognise him now he has put on so much muscle and top line.His flatwork is now exceptional,very engaged, soft and balanced, whereas before he was very stiff and just physically un-able to engage properly...canter was hopeless...
the spine of the horse collapses on eah other. instead of the horses spine pointing up the tilt over if you understand.
[/ QUOTE ]
My horse had it, had the operation in April, (he had 3 vertebrate removed) and is now a new man! H'ell be going eventing next year. You wouldnt recognise him now he has put on so much muscle and top line.His flatwork is now exceptional,very engaged, soft and balanced, whereas before he was very stiff and just physically un-able to engage properly...canter was hopeless...
rrose
Well-Known Member
i was unsure of how to explain it sorry. glad your horse recovered from the operation, good luck eventing
seabiscuit
Well-Known Member
Thank you...
burtie
Well-Known Member
Kissing Spine seems to be the 'in thing' at the moment, every horse with a back problem seems to have it. It was very rare about 15 years ago, but then that may be because it was almost impossible to test for it then. Also there is a theory beginning to brew that higher incidences could be related to riding and putting wieght on the horses spine at earlier ages. I don't think anything scientific has been done to prove it yet, but it would make sense.
Tempi
Well-Known Member
ive never heard it described like that either - my friends horse had it - the vetebrae in her spine where too close together, causing friction etc and obviously a massive amount of pain to the poor mare.
she had a very sucessful operation and was back eventing again at pre novice level, until she went lame this year (not related) and has since been off work and had a tendon op - now being brought back into work, and her back is still fine and shes sounds again - thank god!!
she had a very sucessful operation and was back eventing again at pre novice level, until she went lame this year (not related) and has since been off work and had a tendon op - now being brought back into work, and her back is still fine and shes sounds again - thank god!!
GinaB
Well-Known Member
Thank you for the replies TCC and Seabiscuit! Good luck with your eventing!
burtie
Well-Known Member
In traditional "Kissing Spine", it is the top sticky up part of the vetebrea that rub together causing the problem, may be there are many variations to it these days?
ann-jen
Well-Known Member
Seabiscuit is basically correct. Each vertebra has a big ridge of bone that sticks up vertically called the dorsal spinal process. These are especially large in the thoracic and lumbar area and their function is muscle and ligament attachment. Each individual process should have a small space between the one in front and behind it. In "kissing spines" the dorsal spinal process touch or "kiss" one another and as SB already mentioned this causes friction and pain. In the op mentioned the spinal processes are removed in the affected area to try to eliminate the pain.
Saying that some horses examined at post mortem can be seen to have kissing spines but have shown no clinical signs whatsoever during their lives so its controversial as to how significant it actually is. My personal view is its a legit cause of pain and some horses cope better then others and other factors may impact on it including tack, rider and the job the horse is doing. My own horse was diagnosed with it 2 years ago but has not required surgery - but I have to be extremely careful re saddle fit and adjust the fit of the saddle with any tiny change in her physique and she gets regular physio and massage to keep her back as supple and strong as possible. She has gone from a bucking pyscho when jumping to an ordinary horsie - even gets in 60's dressage now. If ever she reverted to how she was before I would get the op done but fingers crossed that won't be necessary.
Saying that some horses examined at post mortem can be seen to have kissing spines but have shown no clinical signs whatsoever during their lives so its controversial as to how significant it actually is. My personal view is its a legit cause of pain and some horses cope better then others and other factors may impact on it including tack, rider and the job the horse is doing. My own horse was diagnosed with it 2 years ago but has not required surgery - but I have to be extremely careful re saddle fit and adjust the fit of the saddle with any tiny change in her physique and she gets regular physio and massage to keep her back as supple and strong as possible. She has gone from a bucking pyscho when jumping to an ordinary horsie - even gets in 60's dressage now. If ever she reverted to how she was before I would get the op done but fingers crossed that won't be necessary.
Stasha22
Well-Known Member
My horse was diagnosed with it about 3 years ago and had steroid injections in the affected area. Touch wood, she has had no further problems.
GTs
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Kissing Spine seems to be the 'in thing' at the moment, every horse with a back problem seems to have it. It was very rare about 15 years ago, but then that may be because it was almost impossible to test for it then.
[/ QUOTE ]
I spoke to the surgeon whose hospital I used to volunteer at about it - he is considered an authority of equine surgery in the western US. He has never performed this operation and is fascinated why it is so popular in England, if it is necessary, etc.
Kissing Spine seems to be the 'in thing' at the moment, every horse with a back problem seems to have it. It was very rare about 15 years ago, but then that may be because it was almost impossible to test for it then.
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I spoke to the surgeon whose hospital I used to volunteer at about it - he is considered an authority of equine surgery in the western US. He has never performed this operation and is fascinated why it is so popular in England, if it is necessary, etc.
Happy Horse
Well-Known Member
We used to see plenty of horses with back problems at the equine hospital I worked at. It is a condition that affects horses differently and in the worse cases where the tops of the DSPs are severely affected then surgery is often the only answer. I have assisted with this op many times and when successful the outcome is fantastic! GTs I worked with John Walmsley who was one of the first to perform the surgery - I am sure he would be happy to speak to the surgeon you know
seabiscuit
Well-Known Member
There you go Gts- you have your niche market there for making megabucks in the USA! How about becoming one of the top back surgeons in the US for operating on Kissing Spines? The surgeon who did my horse is emphatic that most horses are so much better after surgery. It is a very routine procedure in fact. Its amazing that they dont consider doing this in the US. Perhaps the US dont 'mollycoddle' horses like we do and seek to rehabilitate horses who are suffering from a loss of performace?? Do you have horse physio's, osteopaths, chiropractors??If a horse is stiff in the back, unsupple and unflexible, unable to track up...what would a US vet do for him- would it even be refferred to a physio?
kildalton
Well-Known Member
John Walmsley diagnosed my daughter's mare with KS using scintigraphy, and said it was insignificant in her case, and it's certainly never been a problem.
GTs
Well-Known Member
The surgeon I know visited Liphook a while back when he was designing his new hospital. It is not that he could not diagnose it, and operate on it if one was presented - it is solely none have come through his door.
It is pretty amazing as this guys is basically the bees knees in California - he has operated on endangered species fora local wildlife park, Breeders Cup Winners, Top CA Stallion, and while I was there he got a call from an owner of a sick elephant (there are not many elephant vets in Socal).
It is pretty amazing as this guys is basically the bees knees in California - he has operated on endangered species fora local wildlife park, Breeders Cup Winners, Top CA Stallion, and while I was there he got a call from an owner of a sick elephant (there are not many elephant vets in Socal).
Happy Horse
Well-Known Member
I think the problem is many people assume surgeons will operate regardless, which is just not the case. Probably 2 in 10 horses referred with the problem ended up having surgery.
sundance
Well-Known Member
My horse had 3 spines removed just over 2 weeks ago, I cannot get over how well, happy and content he is even on box rest!! He had the op performed by Svend Kold at Willersley in Tetbury where they perform around 100 per year. I agree to some extent that it is "the new thing" but is that just because they can diagnose it easily now and know what to look for and have developed a way of treating it? The same could be said of ailments that we used to die of in the past. I suspect that many horse who had this condition before were just labled as nappy horses and perhaps beaten into submission? There has to be an element of saddle fitting/design and the jobs that they are asked to perform nowadys but as I understand they havent yet confirmed one source of the condition. I was told that there was a 3 year old that was just starting to be backed that was found with kissing spines so it is assumed that it could also be genetic or some horses are predisposed to this. Maybe we are breeding shorter backed horses? Who knows!! It is a very real condition if you have a horse that has it I can assure you. There are many options that are available but not all horses respond to all the methods, like us they have differing pain thresholds etc. As it has been mentioned, there are a huge number of horses with this condition that are happily coping, race horses are a prime example. We, as people, probably could carry on a normal life adjusting with differing ailments. But does that make it right? The operation is not an easy option. I have been lucky enough to converse with a person, via this site, who has shared her experience of the outcome of her horses progress with me that made the decision much easier to make. Svend and his team do a wonderful job, my horse is one very happy chap, was in no pain, came home and rollled! so dont let anyone put you off the operation (in my opinion) if you are left with no other alternative. We owe it to them to do the best we can.
seabiscuit
Well-Known Member
Sundance- my horse had his op at Willesley too! Also done by Svend Kold. He had 3 removed. Like you was amazed at how much happier he was and he thrived on box rest. When I went to pick him up a week after his operation, the horse had put on loads of weight and looked completly happy and bright eyed- which he hadnt before! He has remained like that to this day- he is now a happy sunny personality, sooo cheeky!
Gts I cannot understand what is going on the US !!
How can there be no need to operate on a single horse there?
Gts I cannot understand what is going on the US !!
GTs
Well-Known Member
That is what we were talking about - it raises many many questions!!! On ourside though we are asking why are they doing so many in England? Is the surgery even necessary? Does it really fix the problem? Is there a 'surgical' problem? Is there a problem at all? What is the surgery exactly doing? Is it the saddles? Are riders in England just fatter than Americans? Can that really be? The list can go on!
And just to give you an idea of numbers, he owns the hospital and has the pick of the cases he wants. The hospital see 1,660 horses per year and he has owned it for 15 years - meaning he has seen 24,900 horses!!!
And just to give you an idea of numbers, he owns the hospital and has the pick of the cases he wants. The hospital see 1,660 horses per year and he has owned it for 15 years - meaning he has seen 24,900 horses!!!
Happy Horse
Well-Known Member
Does it work - yes
Is there a surgical problem - yes on many occasions. Non surgical options are tried first but in the event of these not working, what are the options - loss of use or PTS if the horse can't perform the job expected of it.
Why do we perform so many over here - because we have the know how and facilities and are perhaps willing to take more risks and attempt more radical surgery than in the USA where the chances of being sued are high.
Are riders in England just fatter - now you are being stupid!
Is it the saddles - not according to xrays, bone scans etc
What is the surgery doing - removing the inflamed and painful DSPs once all other avenues have been exhausted thus removing the pain for the horse in future.
I am a firm believe in results speaking for themselves and there is no question this is a lifesaver for many horses.
As a matter of interest does your surgeon perform Wobbler Surgery?
Is there a surgical problem - yes on many occasions. Non surgical options are tried first but in the event of these not working, what are the options - loss of use or PTS if the horse can't perform the job expected of it.
Why do we perform so many over here - because we have the know how and facilities and are perhaps willing to take more risks and attempt more radical surgery than in the USA where the chances of being sued are high.
Are riders in England just fatter - now you are being stupid!
Is it the saddles - not according to xrays, bone scans etc
What is the surgery doing - removing the inflamed and painful DSPs once all other avenues have been exhausted thus removing the pain for the horse in future.
I am a firm believe in results speaking for themselves and there is no question this is a lifesaver for many horses.
As a matter of interest does your surgeon perform Wobbler Surgery?
seabiscuit
Well-Known Member
LOL- Mm yes we are a lot fatter that explains it!! Hahahaha...
Seriously, I have seen a drastic change in my horse. Yes I admit,There ARE several factors that will have contributed to some of those changes, but I think that the main change was in having those vertebrate taken out. But the main fact remains is that from week one after the operation my horse was a different personality- and that was because the pain had been removed. You could not touch his back before it was full of spasm.I had not realised how depressed he was before his op because now, for the first time in 3 years he is a happy cheeky horse with an engaging personality,despite being cared for in exactly the same way and at the same place as before his op. The personality change alone speaks volumes as well as the huge improvement in the quality of his work. I am admant- he is a different horse.
I have seen MANY failed KS operations though where the horses have not been any different and have had to retire- having done research on this have found that this is due to a bad after care/exercise program ( I.E the typical thing of keeping the horse in the box for 3 months with little or no exercise)
Immediate exercise straight after the op is necessary to keep the tissue around the back elastic and prevent build up of scar tissue. My horse was walking out in hand from day 1 building up to an hours walking in week 6 after the operation. Then he had intensive lunging for another 6 weeks.(In the Pessoa-over poles- to make him learn to use his back) If, like many hospitals do sadly, you stick the horse in the box for 3 months after the op with no or little exercise then the operation will very likely have already failed at 3 months post op..
I think that Svend Kold at Willesley Equine is now writing a paper on this proving this theory. Will make interesting reading.
Seriously, I have seen a drastic change in my horse. Yes I admit,There ARE several factors that will have contributed to some of those changes, but I think that the main change was in having those vertebrate taken out. But the main fact remains is that from week one after the operation my horse was a different personality- and that was because the pain had been removed. You could not touch his back before it was full of spasm.I had not realised how depressed he was before his op because now, for the first time in 3 years he is a happy cheeky horse with an engaging personality,despite being cared for in exactly the same way and at the same place as before his op. The personality change alone speaks volumes as well as the huge improvement in the quality of his work. I am admant- he is a different horse.
I have seen MANY failed KS operations though where the horses have not been any different and have had to retire- having done research on this have found that this is due to a bad after care/exercise program ( I.E the typical thing of keeping the horse in the box for 3 months with little or no exercise)
Immediate exercise straight after the op is necessary to keep the tissue around the back elastic and prevent build up of scar tissue. My horse was walking out in hand from day 1 building up to an hours walking in week 6 after the operation. Then he had intensive lunging for another 6 weeks.(In the Pessoa-over poles- to make him learn to use his back) If, like many hospitals do sadly, you stick the horse in the box for 3 months after the op with no or little exercise then the operation will very likely have already failed at 3 months post op..
Happy Horse
Well-Known Member
Interestingly Jim Schumacher is pioneering standing DSP resection - goes to show not all American surgeons think the same way.
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1532-950X.2005.00097.x
http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1532-950X.2005.00097.x
seabiscuit
Well-Known Member
Wow- gosh this is really going to become a very routine 'little' operation- who'd have thought!
Happy Horse
Well-Known Member
It's amazing isn't it - I hadn't heard of anyone doing it standing until I did the search. It does seem to make sense - it is a big op under GA.
seabiscuit
Well-Known Member
Definately makes sense. Obviously must be so much easier to do this with the horse standing up. Makes the GA seem compeltly unecessary now!!
GTs
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Why do we perform so many over here - because we have the know how and facilities and are perhaps willing to take more risks and attempt more radical surgery than in the USA where the chances of being sued are high.
[/ QUOTE ]
I do not believe that is the case. He knew an awful lot about kissing spine, and made it very clear that he just never had seen a case. Infact while thinking about it we rarely saw horses that had sore backs - it was just not very common. That would probably be step one in the research project!
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Are riders in England just fatter - now you are being stupid!
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As a matter of interest does your surgeon perform Wobbler Surgery?
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I am honestly not sure - I generally volunteered on the weekend which he only worked while covering another surgeon. I saw a few horses diagnosed with wobblers, but none had the surgical option.
Why do we perform so many over here - because we have the know how and facilities and are perhaps willing to take more risks and attempt more radical surgery than in the USA where the chances of being sued are high.
[/ QUOTE ]
I do not believe that is the case. He knew an awful lot about kissing spine, and made it very clear that he just never had seen a case. Infact while thinking about it we rarely saw horses that had sore backs - it was just not very common. That would probably be step one in the research project!
[ QUOTE ]
Are riders in England just fatter - now you are being stupid!
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As a matter of interest does your surgeon perform Wobbler Surgery?
[/ QUOTE ]
I am honestly not sure - I generally volunteered on the weekend which he only worked while covering another surgeon. I saw a few horses diagnosed with wobblers, but none had the surgical option.
Happy Horse
Well-Known Member
There's your answer then, if he had never seen a case that would be why he had never operated on one. I can't believe he is denying its existence when the evidence is so overwhelming in successful surgeries.
sevenoceans
Well-Known Member
I can vouch the change in seabisciut's horse. Completely different horse.
BethH
Well-Known Member
I think you might find a lot of Vets in the UK have a cautious attitude to surgery and will only recommend the horse if they believe there is a strong chance of success, they will always want to try a non-invasive route first. The odds are 82% in favour of at least an improvement after surgery and I was told there was no record of it making a horse worse so that seems a risk worth taking to me.
My boy had physio and injections but they had no impact and his back continued to deteriorate, the fact I can now walk him to a field without getting my head kicked in, for me is a major mark of success with this operation, the unbeliveably added bonus of being able to ride him again is just something I didn't dare hope for and I am thoroughly chuffed about it. He is doing well! (with the odd bad day!)
GinaB if you want to PM me for info please do, I have also posted lots of long and boring replies on the forum back in I think end of June which would be worth a read, I wrote a lot about the symptoms etc.
By the way, I am pleased to report after a tough week with Ryan's schooling, I had a fab 1 1/2 hours hack on him yesterday and came back beaming having thoroughly enjoyed myself!
My boy had physio and injections but they had no impact and his back continued to deteriorate, the fact I can now walk him to a field without getting my head kicked in, for me is a major mark of success with this operation, the unbeliveably added bonus of being able to ride him again is just something I didn't dare hope for and I am thoroughly chuffed about it. He is doing well! (with the odd bad day!)
GinaB if you want to PM me for info please do, I have also posted lots of long and boring replies on the forum back in I think end of June which would be worth a read, I wrote a lot about the symptoms etc.
By the way, I am pleased to report after a tough week with Ryan's schooling, I had a fab 1 1/2 hours hack on him yesterday and came back beaming having thoroughly enjoyed myself!