Knowledgeable HHOers, Help! Starting a livery yard :)

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pixie

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To the very knowledgeable folks of HHO! :)

A local livery yard owner was chatting with my inlaws (who are farmers) recently, mentioned how over crowded her yard was and suggested that my inlaws should think about offering livery.
If (BIG IF!) they did this, they would want me to run it for them. I used to have horses at home and grass retirement liveries when I lived in South Africa 10+years ago, but I've never done anything like this in the UK before.

They have land which is grazed by cattle in the summer (and could turn some of the arable land into grazing if need be), so the fencing is at least cow proof! There are also old stables that haven't see horses for a few decades, but are sturdy and would be great with a bit of work. There is a riding school and gallops within short hacking distance, so potential for people to hire these facilities. However if things went well it may be possible to create a level grass schooling area or possible an outdoor manege in the future.

The plan would be to initially offer basic grass/DIY livery whilst I fixed up the stables (and probably working at least part time!), moving onto part and full livery at a later date.

Anyways, the part where I need knowledge...

Obviously the farm is insured, but what sort of insurance would I need for running a livery yard? Which companies are good?

Tax. Obviously its agricultural land and will mostly stay that way (livery would only take up a small part compared to the rest of the farm), but would the council tax change?

Are there any other big monetary things that I need to consider? I basically need know what I need to consider in order to calculate my breaking even figures.

Could I charge people for parking lorries/trailers?

Is it better to have large mixed turnout? Individual turnout? Seperate mare/gelding turnout?

What are the absolute basic facilities required? Especially regarding storage. Is it fair to expect people to keep tack at home? How much space to allow for feed/hay/straw per horse?

We grow barley on the farm, so have ample barley straw. Is it fair to expect people to only use this for their bedding (ie not buying straw elsewhere), unless they use paper/shavings?

How much should I be charging for grass/DIY/part/full livery as it is without facilities (but with nearby facilities)? Would this increase if I added a schooling paddock? A proper outdoor manege? How much to charge for extra things like occasional mucking out/turning out/grooming?

Has anyone built an outdoor manege? How much did it cost? How much of it can you do yourself? What is a good surface to use? Cost per square metre?

Re: reseeding land. What is the best type of grass/grass mix to use? How long after planting can it be grazed?
Has anyone done a business plan for a livery yard? Would you be willing to let me see it?

Anything I might be forgetting?

Lots of questions, I know! This is all kind of sudden! Please answer anything you can and add any thoughts please :)

PM me if necessary :)
 
pixie said:
1) Obviously the farm is insured, but what sort of insurance would I need for running a livery yard? Which companies are good?

2) Tax. Obviously its agricultural land and will mostly stay that way (livery would only take up a small part compared to the rest of the farm), but would the council tax change?

3) Are there any other big monetary things that I need to consider? I basically need know what I need to consider in order to calculate my breaking even figures.

4) Could I charge people for parking lorries/trailers?

5) Is it better to have large mixed turnout? Individual turnout? Seperate mare/gelding turnout?

6) What are the absolute basic facilities required? Especially regarding storage. Is it fair to expect people to keep tack at home? How much space to allow for feed/hay/straw per horse?

7) We grow barley on the farm, so have ample barley straw. Is it fair to expect people to only use this for their bedding (ie not buying straw elsewhere), unless they use paper/shavings?

8) How much should I be charging for grass/DIY/part/full livery as it is without facilities (but with nearby facilities)? Would this increase if I added a schooling paddock? A proper outdoor manege? How much to charge for extra things like occasional mucking out/turning out/grooming?

9) Has anyone built an outdoor manege? How much did it cost? How much of it can you do yourself? What is a good surface to use? Cost per square metre?

10) Re: reseeding land. What is the best type of grass/grass mix to use? How long after planting can it be grazed?
Has anyone done a business plan for a livery yard? Would you be willing to let me see it?
Click to expand...


Apologies for butchering your post, but here goes:

1) NFU, SEIB and Lycetts all offer insurance, Hiscox might do too. You'll need public liability insurance, and employer's liability insurance if you employ anyone or have unpaid helpers.

Look into taking out personal accident cover too in case you're injured and can't run the yard.

2) Not entirely sure, there may be an impact if some of the land is set aside for equestrian use but as you're in Scotlandshire it may work differently.

3) Income tax and national insurance for you, factoring employer's NI + holiday pay etc into employee's wages, insurance and costs of converting the stables.

Also H&S signs etc. If buying in hay etc, will you need to pay for this upfront?

4) Yes, definitely in all the places I've been on before (except current yard, oddly). Normally worked out weekly/monthly with more charged for lorries.

5) I'd be guided on this area by what other yards in the area offer and whether customers are happy with the arrangements.

Whilst group turnout is lovely for many, it can create a host of problems and I'd vere towards offering individual turnout or pairs as requested.

6) DIY liveries inevitably bring a whole load of 'stuff' with them. They'll need space for feed bins, rug storage and bedding/forage etc.

A lot of yards provide say a covered barn with marked bays/a pallet or two on which to store everything. Be wary of people hogging space - DIY liveries are like cats, they have an innate ability to fill all space available to them!

7) Yes, absolutely fine and frees up some space as well as providing another source of income.

8) Can't say on the livery rate as I don't know the area but I wouldn't charge extra for the schooling paddock. The school however would warrant a price increase.

For the additional jobs, a sensible way would be to work out an hourly rate for your time, work out how long it takes to do each job from there and then calculate each job from there.

Clients however may expect you to do things below this sort of rate ;)

9) The cost will fall if you can do as much of the groundworks as possible, but obv. only do this if you can get it to the right standard.

Synthetic fibres, rubber/sand mixes are popular but your choice of surface may be dictated by local planning.
 
Tax. Obviously its agricultural land and will mostly stay that way (livery would only take up a small part compared to the rest of the farm), but would the council tax change?

My friend had her ponies on previous crop fields. We were in the middle of nowhere but somebody made it their business to tell the council. If you are feeding your horses on the land (ie hard feed and or supplemented hay) or if you have jumps in your field or ride in your field then yes you need to apply to change the use of land to equine and from memory it's not cheap.


Could I charge people for parking lorries/trailers? With good hardstanding and security of some sort I don't see why not, most yards round here charge to park lorries or trailers.

Is it better to have large mixed turnout? Individual turnout? Seperate mare/gelding turnout? I think the yard my horse is on works quite well. We have large groups of either mares or geldings. We also have some small groups of two or three (mostly full or part livery) and intervidual paddocks for one or two trouble makers!

What are the absolute basic facilities required? Especially regarding storage. Is it fair to expect people to keep tack at home? How much space to allow for feed/hay/straw per horse? I keep my tack at home anyway as it's almost impossible to get your tack insured at a yard unless it has a 5 bar mortice lock and many other specifications on your tack room, so yes that's fine to expect people to take it home. I would however expect an area for me to put basic stuff such as grooming kit and a few rugs. Grass livery we have a shed as a feed store for 8 liveries and it's cramped! hay is provided by the yard included in all livery types and bedding is brought off the yard by diys. This helps to reduce storage space.

We grow barley on the farm, so have ample barley straw. Is it fair to expect people to only use this for their bedding (ie not buying straw elsewhere), unless they use paper/shavings? If it's good quality and not too dusty then yes I don't see why not

How much should I be charging for grass/DIY/part/full livery as it is without facilities (but with nearby facilities)? Would this increase if I added a schooling paddock? A proper outdoor manege? How much to charge for extra things like occasional mucking out/turning out/grooming? I would call round a few local yards and get prices, it really is dependent on where abouts you are. Yes you could charge more for a manege.

Anything I might be forgetting? yard rules. These need to be determined and stuck to. You will need to get a livery contract drawn up to protect both yourself and your liveries. Decide on whether you want lots of farriers coming in or they have to use your own or a choice of two, same with vets. Decide on opening hours. Who is responsible for paddock maintainance and fencing? should be yourself but you may want liveries to help poo pick. Do you do you worm all the horses at once with your choice of wormer or are liveries responsible for remembering to buy it and worm at the same time?
 
I'm in Aberdeen at the moment, but inlaw's farm is located about 30mins north of York!

Re: worming. I would set up a worming rota for the whole yard to follow. Ensure that any new arrivals are wormed when they come with the aim to get them onto the rota with the others. There is a large equine vets about 10 mins from the farm, I actually did work experience with the owner/head vet. I'd probably ask them for advise on how best to set this up.

No idea about the prices in the area, would have to look into that when I'm down there.

I've already started thinking about rules.
No dogs would definately be one. I used to share a horse on a yard where there were lots of dogs running around and dog poo everywhere :S
Also, no unsupervised under 12's. Though still wondering whether or not to allow children. I know that a lot of adults want child-free livery, however there are a lot of kids with ponies, so perhaps there is a market for yards that are primarily child-friendly? Plus, I love little ponies :D
Fence maintainance would be done by ourselves. However I feel that poo picking should be done by DIYers and a bit by part-liveries and some by myself.
 
Re: reseeding land. What is the best type of grass/grass mix to use? How long after planting can it be grazed?
Has anyone done a business plan for a livery yard? Would you be willing to let me see it?

As you have answers to the other questions, I'll tackle this one:)
I found the easiest way to turn arable land into grassland is seed late (September) with Italian Ryegrass mixture, leave till June, cut for hay/haylage, overseed with timothy/another horse mix and leave till autumn, take another late cut off it (late August/September) and ideally leave for another winter before grazing with horses, but at a push in dryish winter weather you could use it after the second cut. If you could put sheep on it after the second cut for a couple of months that would improve the root structure and thicken the grass no end.
If you are really pushed for time/lacking grazing land, you could try drilling rye grass/ timothy mixture in early April and taking several cuts as soon as there is enough to cut - you will probably be able to lightly graze it by October, but all the cuts will be either wasted or only suitable for silage (as you do have cattle, that might be a good idea).

ETS: don't be afraid to fertilise your fresh crop grass, it will speed up the growth and allow you to cut more often, thus helping the pasture establish.
 
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