KPU

[AWinter]

Kryptopyrrolurie (KPU) – a widespread detoxification disorder

KPU what is it? Kryptopyrrolurie (KPU) is unfortunately a very widespread detoxification disorder in horses. The cause lies in a disturbed intestinal gut

wissen.sanoanimal.de

My trimmer mentioned this to me with a complex horse I have, does anyone have an experience following these protocols? I’m reluctant to fall down yet another expensive rabbit hole that won’t help. But this sounds logical?

But on the same token so many companies sell tests and herbs that they say will fix your horse. Apparently this is the work of a German vet.

Very interested in any thoughts/experiences.

 

[LittleLegs&Co]

Hi - yes I've been down this rabbit hole (still am really!), and I'd say we're a success story (or at least very definitely heading in that direction, and what I have learned through the process has fundamentally changed the way I feed my horses forever)
I believe KPU is still fairly disputed in vets, not sure if that's due to lack of proper research etc etc, but I have to say it made a lot of sense for what I was seeing in my horse, and in the absence of any other ideas/what we were trying not working, my wonderful vet at the time was happy to support me in trying this. I think there is so much we don't yet understand about how important all of the horses internal systems are, especially the hindgut and the knock-on impact of that not working properly on everything else.

I went through Lorraine Dearnley at Coppermead Equestrian, who works closely with Christina Fritz (The German behind your link, think she may be a nutritionist more than a vet but I've quite possibly got in a muddle there!). She started by asking me to get a lot of specific blood tests done, and then helped to analyse the results - specific combinations of things being high/low would point to KPU (i.e. very very basically, when the hindgut isn't working properly the liver, kidneys etc don't have what they need to effectively remove toxins, so they bind to other minerals to help with this, making those things lower than they should be in the blood). Lorraine is a stockist of the Okapi products used, and will develop a programme for your horse (for a fee). It's not cheap, and does take time to reset and rebuild, but it is at least based on what's going on in your actual horse, and just over 2 years down the line my little horse is in a much better place than he's been in years, even before I really realised he had a problem (I now suspect he was probably struggling for a while, then a virus completely knocked him and he just fell apart on me). We've been through the programme and now maintain on a rotation of a couple of the products, with the option to add things back in if I think we need to (and aiming to more or less come off them eventually)

In line with the supplements, I changed their carrier feed to plain soaked grass nuts/hay nuts (simple systems), an area I really don't understand but there may be something in the way some feeds are processed, the types of minerals used etc in more commercial feeds that seem not to agree with my little ones (mini shetlands) - I personally think this is an area that needs a lot more research! I'm guilty of being one to fall for every marketing gimick out there, but this one thing has benefitted all of mine.....

I now include a lot of herbs in their diet in general (oily herbs plus some of the mixes from horse herbs online, I try to rotate ones that I think are helpful so they get a variety). I'm also lucky enough to have my own land now, so will be looking to improve the grass with more horse-friendly species.

Apart from Coppermead there's also Equinatural which I did have a look at recently but decided to stick with what I know for now, again she follows Christina's ideas.

(note: I am in no way linked to Coppermead/Okapi/Equinatural/HorseHerbs or any company - but I'm happy to promote them from my own positive experience, and as said above what I have learned has fundamentally changed the way I think about horse nutrition now)

 

[AWinter]

Hi - yes I've been down this rabbit hole (still am really!), and I'd say we're a success story (or at least very definitely heading in that direction, and what I have learned through the process has fundamentally changed the way I feed my horses forever)
I believe KPU is still fairly disputed in vets, not sure if that's due to lack of proper research etc etc, but I have to say it made a lot of sense for what I was seeing in my horse, and in the absence of any other ideas/what we were trying not working, my wonderful vet at the time was happy to support me in trying this. I think there is so much we don't yet understand about how important all of the horses internal systems are, especially the hindgut and the knock-on impact of that not working properly on everything else.

I went through Lorraine Dearnley at Coppermead Equestrian, who works closely with Christina Fritz (The German behind your link, think she may be a nutritionist more than a vet but I've quite possibly got in a muddle there!). She started by asking me to get a lot of specific blood tests done, and then helped to analyse the results - specific combinations of things being high/low would point to KPU (i.e. very very basically, when the hindgut isn't working properly the liver, kidneys etc don't have what they need to effectively remove toxins, so they bind to other minerals to help with this, making those things lower than they should be in the blood). Lorraine is a stockist of the Okapi products used, and will develop a programme for your horse (for a fee). It's not cheap, and does take time to reset and rebuild, but it is at least based on what's going on in your actual horse, and just over 2 years down the line my little horse is in a much better place than he's been in years, even before I really realised he had a problem (I now suspect he was probably struggling for a while, then a virus completely knocked him and he just fell apart on me). We've been through the programme and now maintain on a rotation of a couple of the products, with the option to add things back in if I think we need to (and aiming to more or less come off them eventually)

In line with the supplements, I changed their carrier feed to plain soaked grass nuts/hay nuts (simple systems), an area I really don't understand but there may be something in the way some feeds are processed, the types of minerals used etc in more commercial feeds that seem not to agree with my little ones (mini shetlands) - I personally think this is an area that needs a lot more research! I'm guilty of being one to fall for every marketing gimick out there, but this one thing has benefitted all of mine.....

I now include a lot of herbs in their diet in general (oily herbs plus some of the mixes from horse herbs online, I try to rotate ones that I think are helpful so they get a variety). I'm also lucky enough to have my own land now, so will be looking to improve the grass with more horse-friendly species.

Apart from Coppermead there's also Equinatural which I did have a look at recently but decided to stick with what I know for now, again she follows Christina's ideas.

(note: I am in no way linked to Coppermead/Okapi/Equinatural/HorseHerbs or any company - but I'm happy to promote them from my own positive experience, and as said above what I have learned has fundamentally changed the way I think about horse nutrition now)

Thanks for your reply, what were your horse’s symptoms and what improvements have you seen? Some of the stuff I’ve been told sounds a bit farfetched, like chaff causes ulcers? Is this what you were told? I’m struggling to even find a base feed that is supposedly suitable. This is all very overwhelming.

 

[zoon]

I’ve never done the blood tests, but I feed mine pyridoxal 5 phosphate and it makes a huge difference to his demeanour and softness of his muscles. It’s very cheap if you don’t buy it from equinatural!

I’ve had him since he was weaned and he has always had gut issues, I think it stems from his dam. If they don’t get the good bacteria from eating their mothers droppings then they’re a bit screwed from the start.

I feed him soaked sainfoin fibre pellets from simple systems, a progressive earth balancer, salt and P5P

He is on a track system with ad lib meadow hay - he can’t tolerate grass at all

 

[LittleLegs&Co]

Thanks for your reply, what were your horse’s symptoms and what improvements have you seen? Some of the stuff I’ve been told sounds a bit farfetched, like chaff causes ulcers? Is this what you were told? I’m struggling to even find a base feed that is supposedly suitable. This is all very overwhelming.

It is very overwhelming - don't worry about getting it all right at once, every small thing you improve has got to be a good thing right? I know I don't know anywhere near as much as I'd like to, and I think in general it's an area that isn't well understood and needs a lot more work.

Base feed I was told to keep it very simple, to use feeds with minimal or no processing and nothing added - so soaked grass nuts are perfect (was recommended simple systems, blue bag or haycare, plus a bit of sainfoin for the vit/min variety). I used to like feeding chaff etc, thought it looked nicer in the bowl I suppose, but they all seem to really like their grass slop
The starting point for us, before adding anything to his feed, was to switch to just plain soaked grass nuts for a couple of weeks. Suppose a bit of a detox, I did this for all 4 of mine and I think there was a difference in all of them. They'd just been on a lite balancer beforehand but it evidently wasn't agreeeing with them somewhere! They're all still on the soaked haycare with minimal bits added as and when needed

Not sure on the chaff causes ulcers - maybe something to do with the processing/things being added?? (oils, molasses etc?) - totally guessing there though

Symptoms - not really sure where it all started and what caused what TBH, bit of a chicken and egg in our case...........Very simplified story, I first really noticed him having issues when he just went a bit flat on me warming up at a competition. Gave him a rest for a few weeks but still no better, so we ran basic blood tests which showed he'd probably had a virus (white blood cells etc). He started struggling a bit with breathing (this was December so not summer pollen etc, which he's always been a little sensitive to) Took him to Rossdales for further investigation into breathing, diagnosed with asthma and given inhaled steroids. They should be relatively safe, however within a week or so we had laminitis which took months to fully settle. Assume his system was so close to the edge even that small directed amount was enough. On top of that we had skin issues - he's always been an itchy horse but he developed quite severe rainscald (not caused by management!) and his hair went quite wirey/coarse. He sees Tom Beech from time to time following an SI injury a few years ago - it was him who pointed me in the direction of Lorraine at Coppermead. Basic logic - the main organs for removing toxins etc are hindgut & liver I think - when either of them aren't working properly the other organs have to pick up the slack - so that's when you start to see issues in skin etc. Whether he had issues before the virus and his immune system wasn't working well enough to fight it off as a result, or whether the virus pushed his system over the edge, I'm really not sure

Improvements - it's taken us a long time but he has so much more energy again now, easier to keep him at a good weight (he's a mini shet - so weight is always a problem!), skin issues have largely resolved (he's still itchy in summer and still gets the odd scabby bits, so we're not at 100%, but massive improvement) and he's shining again (he's clipped all year round for work and because it seems to help his skin to be able to breathe - even his freshly clipped coat is absolutely gleaming). His 'professionals' (chiro, farrier, vet etc) have all commented that he's back to his old cheeky self / his eyes are brighter again. Much better feet quality (and down a size in hoof boots - hadn't realised but there must have been inflammation causing them to flare, much better now). And breathing is mostly good - he's never been amazing on high pollen days so we just work around that, but he was really noisy and that's gone now.

Before throwing a lot of money at something that your trimmer has suggested without really understanding why (not suggesting they don't know their stuff, but you can't see what's going on internally) - maybe look at getting some blood tests done and see what that tells you? It's more things than the standard blood panels - but my vet was happy enough to humour me and Lorraine explained her interpretation of the results to me. She's not a vet so can't & won't diagnose but certain results would point to certain things. If you pm me your email address I don't mind sending you some of the emails so you can see her approach and see if it's something you'd like to look into more?

@zoon It's the P5P i'm really intrigued by with equinatural, but trying very hard to sit on my hands and not jump on things / change too much without really researching first - as I said I am a sod for a gimick and will happily throw everything including the kitchen sink at this pony. Interesting to know you can get it cheaper - where do you get it from, if you don't mind me asking?

 

[SEL]

Christina Fritz did some webinars a couple of years ago which I attended. Some of her ideas are a bit quirky (chaff causing ulcers stuck with me - I just can't see how it could) but in general she's about healthy eating for horses. I don't agree with everything she says but I know some people have gone deep down that rabbit hole and are telling me they are seeing improvements.

The Equinatural website has some good information on what is termed KPU if you want to do more reading.

My horses are already fed very simply and I tend to add herbs as and when - mine are also on fabulous old grazing with a lot of different species and access to hedges which can only help their biome.

 

[Fieldlife]

I’ve never done the blood tests, but I feed mine pyridoxal 5 phosphate and it makes a huge difference to his demeanour and softness of his muscles. It’s very cheap if you don’t buy it from equinatural!

I’ve had him since he was weaned and he has always had gut issues, I think it stems from his dam. If they don’t get the good bacteria from eating their mothers droppings then they’re a bit screwed from the start.

I feed him soaked sainfoin fibre pellets from simple systems, a progressive earth balancer, salt and P5P

He is on a track system with ad lib meadow hay - he can’t tolerate grass at all

what does the pyridoxal 5 phosphate do? thanks

 

[Jambarissa]

It is overwhelming once you go down the rabbit hole. Agree with above to keep it simple and make changes slowly. Try things and if you think it's improved stop again to see whether it's really the supplement that's done it.

Equinatural and trinity consultants publish the ingredients of their formulas, if you Google they're just readily available herbs so if you find something that works from them you can recreate it in large quantities and continue to feed quite cheaply.

 

[ycbm]

what does the pyridoxal 5 phosphate do? thanks

According to t'internet it corrects vitamin B6 deficiency.
.

 

[zoon]

what does the pyridoxal 5 phosphate do? thanks

It should be produced by a healthy horses gut biome, but if there is dysbiosis it is not (or not in sufficient quantities)

The liver needs it to process various toxins and when there is not enough of it, will use other things such as zinc and selenium. So a cascade of deficiencies occur.

This explains it far better than I do

Equine KPU Cryptopyrroluria Supplements | EquiNatural

Reset your KPU (Cryptopyrrolia) horse with EquiNatural. Shop online for our organic KPU C.A.R.E Immunity programme - Cleanse, Activate, Restore & Energise.

www.equinatural.co.uk

Not sure if the science is all 100% correct, but it’s super cheap to supplement and seems to have made a difference to mine

 

[zoon]

It is very overwhelming - don't worry about getting it all right at once, every small thing you improve has got to be a good thing right? I know I don't know anywhere near as much as I'd like to, and I think in general it's an area that isn't well understood and needs a lot more work.

Base feed I was told to keep it very simple, to use feeds with minimal or no processing and nothing added - so soaked grass nuts are perfect (was recommended simple systems, blue bag or haycare, plus a bit of sainfoin for the vit/min variety). I used to like feeding chaff etc, thought it looked nicer in the bowl I suppose, but they all seem to really like their grass slop
The starting point for us, before adding anything to his feed, was to switch to just plain soaked grass nuts for a couple of weeks. Suppose a bit of a detox, I did this for all 4 of mine and I think there was a difference in all of them. They'd just been on a lite balancer beforehand but it evidently wasn't agreeeing with them somewhere! They're all still on the soaked haycare with minimal bits added as and when needed

Not sure on the chaff causes ulcers - maybe something to do with the processing/things being added?? (oils, molasses etc?) - totally guessing there though

Symptoms - not really sure where it all started and what caused what TBH, bit of a chicken and egg in our case...........Very simplified story, I first really noticed him having issues when he just went a bit flat on me warming up at a competition. Gave him a rest for a few weeks but still no better, so we ran basic blood tests which showed he'd probably had a virus (white blood cells etc). He started struggling a bit with breathing (this was December so not summer pollen etc, which he's always been a little sensitive to) Took him to Rossdales for further investigation into breathing, diagnosed with asthma and given inhaled steroids. They should be relatively safe, however within a week or so we had laminitis which took months to fully settle. Assume his system was so close to the edge even that small directed amount was enough. On top of that we had skin issues - he's always been an itchy horse but he developed quite severe rainscald (not caused by management!) and his hair went quite wirey/coarse. He sees Tom Beech from time to time following an SI injury a few years ago - it was him who pointed me in the direction of Lorraine at Coppermead. Basic logic - the main organs for removing toxins etc are hindgut & liver I think - when either of them aren't working properly the other organs have to pick up the slack - so that's when you start to see issues in skin etc. Whether he had issues before the virus and his immune system wasn't working well enough to fight it off as a result, or whether the virus pushed his system over the edge, I'm really not sure

Improvements - it's taken us a long time but he has so much more energy again now, easier to keep him at a good weight (he's a mini shet - so weight is always a problem!), skin issues have largely resolved (he's still itchy in summer and still gets the odd scabby bits, so we're not at 100%, but massive improvement) and he's shining again (he's clipped all year round for work and because it seems to help his skin to be able to breathe - even his freshly clipped coat is absolutely gleaming). His 'professionals' (chiro, farrier, vet etc) have all commented that he's back to his old cheeky self / his eyes are brighter again. Much better feet quality (and down a size in hoof boots - hadn't realised but there must have been inflammation causing them to flare, much better now). And breathing is mostly good - he's never been amazing on high pollen days so we just work around that, but he was really noisy and that's gone now.

Before throwing a lot of money at something that your trimmer has suggested without really understanding why (not suggesting they don't know their stuff, but you can't see what's going on internally) - maybe look at getting some blood tests done and see what that tells you? It's more things than the standard blood panels - but my vet was happy enough to humour me and Lorraine explained her interpretation of the results to me. She's not a vet so can't & won't diagnose but certain results would point to certain things. If you pm me your email address I don't mind sending you some of the emails so you can see her approach and see if it's something you'd like to look into more?

@zoon It's the P5P i'm really intrigued by with equinatural, but trying very hard to sit on my hands and not jump on things / change too much without really researching first - as I said I am a sod for a gimick and will happily throw everything including the kitchen sink at this pony. Interesting to know you can get it cheaper - where do you get it from, if you don't mind me asking?

Equinatural buy it from bulk powders in the US. And then hike up the price. I buy straight from them. It’s really cheap

 

[zoon]

Sorry, website wrong. It’s this one. But it’s half the price that equinatural charge and delivery is free

 

[AWinter]

It is very overwhelming - don't worry about getting it all right at once, every small thing you improve has got to be a good thing right? I know I don't know anywhere near as much as I'd like to, and I think in general it's an area that isn't well understood and needs a lot more work.

Base feed I was told to keep it very simple, to use feeds with minimal or no processing and nothing added - so soaked grass nuts are perfect (was recommended simple systems, blue bag or haycare, plus a bit of sainfoin for the vit/min variety). I used to like feeding chaff etc, thought it looked nicer in the bowl I suppose, but they all seem to really like their grass slop
The starting point for us, before adding anything to his feed, was to switch to just plain soaked grass nuts for a couple of weeks. Suppose a bit of a detox, I did this for all 4 of mine and I think there was a difference in all of them. They'd just been on a lite balancer beforehand but it evidently wasn't agreeeing with them somewhere! They're all still on the soaked haycare with minimal bits added as and when needed

Not sure on the chaff causes ulcers - maybe something to do with the processing/things being added?? (oils, molasses etc?) - totally guessing there though

Symptoms - not really sure where it all started and what caused what TBH, bit of a chicken and egg in our case...........Very simplified story, I first really noticed him having issues when he just went a bit flat on me warming up at a competition. Gave him a rest for a few weeks but still no better, so we ran basic blood tests which showed he'd probably had a virus (white blood cells etc). He started struggling a bit with breathing (this was December so not summer pollen etc, which he's always been a little sensitive to) Took him to Rossdales for further investigation into breathing, diagnosed with asthma and given inhaled steroids. They should be relatively safe, however within a week or so we had laminitis which took months to fully settle. Assume his system was so close to the edge even that small directed amount was enough. On top of that we had skin issues - he's always been an itchy horse but he developed quite severe rainscald (not caused by management!) and his hair went quite wirey/coarse. He sees Tom Beech from time to time following an SI injury a few years ago - it was him who pointed me in the direction of Lorraine at Coppermead. Basic logic - the main organs for removing toxins etc are hindgut & liver I think - when either of them aren't working properly the other organs have to pick up the slack - so that's when you start to see issues in skin etc. Whether he had issues before the virus and his immune system wasn't working well enough to fight it off as a result, or whether the virus pushed his system over the edge, I'm really not sure

Improvements - it's taken us a long time but he has so much more energy again now, easier to keep him at a good weight (he's a mini shet - so weight is always a problem!), skin issues have largely resolved (he's still itchy in summer and still gets the odd scabby bits, so we're not at 100%, but massive improvement) and he's shining again (he's clipped all year round for work and because it seems to help his skin to be able to breathe - even his freshly clipped coat is absolutely gleaming). His 'professionals' (chiro, farrier, vet etc) have all commented that he's back to his old cheeky self / his eyes are brighter again. Much better feet quality (and down a size in hoof boots - hadn't realised but there must have been inflammation causing them to flare, much better now). And breathing is mostly good - he's never been amazing on high pollen days so we just work around that, but he was really noisy and that's gone now.

Before throwing a lot of money at something that your trimmer has suggested without really understanding why (not suggesting they don't know their stuff, but you can't see what's going on internally) - maybe look at getting some blood tests done and see what that tells you? It's more things than the standard blood panels - but my vet was happy enough to humour me and Lorraine explained her interpretation of the results to me. She's not a vet so can't & won't diagnose but certain results would point to certain things. If you pm me your email address I don't mind sending you some of the emails so you can see her approach and see if it's something you'd like to look into more?

@zoon It's the P5P i'm really intrigued by with equinatural, but trying very hard to sit on my hands and not jump on things / change too much without really researching first - as I said I am a sod for a gimick and will happily throw everything including the kitchen sink at this pony. Interesting to know you can get it cheaper - where do you get it from, if you don't mind me asking?

Thanks for your reply, I’m a bit baffled by it all. My horse’s only symptom that matches anything is suddenly developing a pollen allergy cough a few years ago, which is managed well with a Trinity tonic. His diet is already very “clean” if that makes sense. He had some liver issues from mouldy hay at the yard he was on last year but the vets say his bloods are perfect now.

I suppose the difficulty is being told it will take years to rectify and having no quantifiable measure of whether “it” is working or not. The stuff about supplementing B6 confuses me because how do I know that’s true or not? I don’t want to cause an issue where there isn’t one.

I will PM you if that’s okay?

 

[AWinter]

Christina Fritz did some webinars a couple of years ago which I attended. Some of her ideas are a bit quirky (chaff causing ulcers stuck with me - I just can't see how it could) but in general she's about healthy eating for horses. I don't agree with everything she says but I know some people have gone deep down that rabbit hole and are telling me they are seeing improvements.

The Equinatural website has some good information on what is termed KPU if you want to do more reading.

My horses are already fed very simply and I tend to add herbs as and when - mine are also on fabulous old grazing with a lot of different species and access to hedges which can only help their biome.

Thanks I’m a bit lost with it all, my horse is on really good mixed meadow hay and hedgerows/herbs etc and a very “clean” diet, so I’m just not sure if it’s spending a lot of money for no reason. It’s really hard to know when there is seemingly no quantifiable evidence available.

 

[LittleLegs&Co]

Thanks for your reply, I’m a bit baffled by it all. My horse’s only symptom that matches anything is suddenly developing a pollen allergy cough a few years ago, which is managed well with a Trinity tonic. His diet is already very “clean” if that makes sense. He had some liver issues from mouldy hay at the yard he was on last year but the vets say his bloods are perfect now.

I suppose the difficulty is being told it will take years to rectify and having no quantifiable measure of whether “it” is working or not. The stuff about supplementing B6 confuses me because how do I know that’s true or not? I don’t want to cause an issue where there isn’t one.

I will PM you if that’s okay?

Yes absolutely fine to pm

If that's the only symptom - on what basis does your trimmer think KPU may be relevant? Are there other symptoms?

 

[StorminNormin]

Just thought I'd chip in here is anyone's still following as I went to buy P5P from Bulk as recommended above, but it's not free shipping. If you order under £49 you pay normal delivery charges plus import customs, and it takes a while cos it comes from the US! So I went and checked with equinatuaral and their price is much cheaper so I'v bought theirs as it's next-day as well.