Lack of fitness over the BE 80 course (Pulborough)

Luci07

Luci07

Well-Known Member
Joined
13 October 2009
Messages
9,380
Location
Dorking
Visit site
I went along to watch what seemed like most of our yard competing on Saturday in the 80 and 90. The fitness difference between some of the competitors in the 80 was pretty astounding. You had riders sitting heavily with completely knackered and blowing horses before they were even half way round, shown up by others who really were skipping around. Noticeably the riders who were OFF their horses backs.! There did not seem to be an inbetween either..

Personal favourite though - the small (14hh) gray, whose ears were so pricked through all his jumping looked like they were meeting and he made it all look very very easy. Sadly his owner is going to have to sell him as she is outgrowing him but they were a really lovely partnership.
 
Oh dear lol, that may have been me but then I choose to go slowly as my horse is only baby doing his 2nd ODE it wasn't a fitness thing :).
 
Big difference between slow and horse puffing and heaving though! and you can still move forward freely without going flat out. These riders were sitting on their horses backs all the way round and their horses were clearly struggling very early on...I would expect my youngster to be able to have a decent run without blowing heavily, ( albeit not atm as he is only just back into work.)
 
Last edited:
True true, I didn't see anyone else go round tbh I was too busy wanting to throw up before hand ;). My horse was alright at the finish, he started to gallop with his head down at the end of the course but I think he finds it mentally tiring more than anything as he was concentrating so hard!
I barely weigh 8 stone and I sometimes think he forgets I'm on his back ;). I won't do intro untill we crack the timing issue, I seem to spend most of my round nattering to him and patting him :p
 
There were quite a few combinations physically struggling at the half way point, these were looking tired and flagging, I agree there is a difference between slow/steady and unfit and these were unfit. However I did see some lovely youngsters giving their ponies a cracking round and totally enjoying themselves, and several of them were chatting away to their ponies which put a smile on my face.
 
Aw cute. Probably not so cute when a 29yr old adult chats away :p, I vaguely remember saying 'careful now CAREFUL' going into the last as I wanted him to respect it as it looked gappy and the last can always catch people out. I remember going 'c'mon baby it's Ok just go through it' at the first water :o and telling him the first SJ fence was 'very serious' god how cringing!!!'. HA HA
 
firewell said:
Aw cute. Probably not so cute when a 29yr old adult chats away :p, I vaguely remember saying 'careful now CAREFUL' going into the last as I wanted him to respect it as it looked gappy and the last can always catch people out. I remember going 'c'mon baby it's Ok just go through it' at the first water :o and telling him the first SJ fence was 'very serious' god how cringing!!!'. HA HA
Click to expand...

I am nearly 31 and I chat to Andy and Amber on the way round too :o Mainly it is me apologising for getting them on a duff stride.. Yesterday it was telling Amber to slow down for the half coffin as you couldn't see the ditch 'til the last minute! And me 'chatting' loudly to Andy when he was being naughty.. Then shouting 'Woohoo, good boy!' when we got over the corner first time!! :D

Back to the OP, I wasn't at Pulborough to watch but I did see some of the unaff Pre-Intro at Mattingley a few weeks ago and it was the same. Combinations eiter skipping round easily or looking like they were way out of their depth fitness wise..
 
It is truely shocking isn't it - and it's been said many a time on here, and in the wider press. The thing is, riders sitting in the saddle aren't wholly limited to BE80, I have seen it quite a lot at BE90, and have even seen quite a few sitting down by the end of a BE100. No regard for the horse whatsoever!!

What I have noticed from the amount of teaching that I do in riding schools, is that most people are NEVER taught to canter in a light seat any more, they have been dressaged to death and have no idea to balance just on their feet - they feel unsafe and insecure out of the saddle and have no idea how to bridge their reins and get their hands buried in the horses neck. I think it is probably a greater problem among riders who have learnt as adults, rather than those who have been through the pony club and hunting as part of their early education.

Rider fitness plays a huge part. I evented up to novice before I worked in racing, and at the end of the XC I would not be sitting down, but I would have a bit of aching legs and be slightly puffed. Now I work in racing I know that I balance much much better between fences up and out of the saddle completely, and that my legs don't feel it in the slightest - because they are better conditioned for that sort of position/exercise.

The trouble is, that I think the culprits doing this, probably have no idea of the huge mistakes they are making.
 
I did the BE80 at Pulborough on saturday and my horse skipped round 25 secs inside the time. He only sweated under the girth and behind his ears and his breathing was back to normal once we were back to the lorry. It was all pretty flat with no twisting and turning so I don't understand why so many struggled. My horse is a 15hh connie so I am intrigued to know how people pick up so many time penalties (I should probably add that I don't gallop about like a maniac, I just let my horse cruise round).

I actually came through the finish frantically questioning whether I'd missed a loop out somewhere as it seemed to be over so quickly :rolleyes:
 
Actually, I have never seen quite so many unfit combinations at a BE event. Normally you expect to see a couple but there were a lot (!) on Saturday. Good tip must have been - if you are overtaken you are clearly going too slow (saw that happen to a lot) and sitting on your horses back doing an elegant dressage canter is not how to go XC. Not sure what the answer is, cos, as someone else pointed out earlier, they probably don't realise what they are doing wrong and think the other riders are too fast. Maybe it should be compulsory to watch 1 hour of 4* XC riding to see how the riders balance and ride before you can go BE!

I also appreciate fitness goes quickly. Did my first uphill trot with me in XC position - only about 4 minutes and my stomach was screaming at the end. But then, I am no where near taking mine out competing for a while! oh and I like the talkers. I always did it and am considerably older than a lot of the posters on here. I just had to button my mouth so as not to let the odd swear word slip out..
 
I was at Calmsden yesterday and had the same impression, this was BE 90,several unfit horses and riders, struggling at the top of the hill, one rider was no help to his horse, elbows were going coming into a fence but his legs looked as if they could not move, the horse stopped, then again a fence or two later, he should really have been pulled up as it was not safe riding imo.
Another rider set off on a really fat cobby type crawled over the first fence and only got to the fifth before the horse ground to a halt and the rider fell off.
The time was probably easy to get as there were not too many with time penalties though.
There were many that looked unfit in the dressage warmup, usually you look around and see smart well prepared horses going well and there was a definite difference yesterday, possibly as we only really saw mainly BE 90 competitors warmup, the 100 started later, usually there is more of a mix.
 
I got lots of time faults because I did go slowly, I went at a nice canter rhythm because my horse is inexperienced and he likes to look before he jumps, I also got time faults because I took long sweeping turns into the jumps, kept him straight and set him up a good 5/6 strides away so he was totally balanced, we also walked through the water because that is what he wanted to do.
I didn't get overtaken and he wasn't slow because he wasn't fit, it was how I rode him on purpose because I'd rather be careful and go clear then hare around on an inexperienced horse.
I think to say ' you don't know how people got time faults' is unfair as BE80 is for inexperienced riders and horses and you don't know the decisions some people make. If I did a fast
clear, then I would be at intro next time.

I looked at the results and basically 11 combinations didn't complete and were eliminated or retired. I think that is an awful lot! Maybe the standard wasn't high and there were people who were competing before they were ready or maybe the class was hard for a BE80 (I thought it was fine and educational).
Like I said I didn't see anyone else ride the BE80 as I was too interested in my own horse and our efforts then other peoples efforts but that's why BE80 is a T class, so people can learn. I don't think it matters how people 'sit' it's wether they are in balance with their horse, if they are crashing around on the horses back then they can't be in balance but I don't think the time faults had anything to do with the fitness of the horse. My horse's breathing was back to normal way before we were even back at the lorry.
People preach too much on here. I'm sure you are all amazing and ride as light and as balanced as WFP and all the rest of us should basically stop riding.
 
be positive said:
I was at Calmsden yesterday and had the same impression, this was BE 90,several unfit horses and riders, struggling at the top of the hill, one rider was no help to his horse, elbows were going coming into a fence but his legs looked as if they could not move, the horse stopped, then again a fence or two later, he should really have been pulled up as it was not safe riding imo.
Another rider set off on a really fat cobby type crawled over the first fence and only got to the fifth before the horse ground to a halt and the rider fell off.
The time was probably easy to get as there were not too many with time penalties though.
There were many that looked unfit in the dressage warmup, usually you look around and see smart well prepared horses going well and there was a definite difference yesterday, possibly as we only really saw mainly BE 90 competitors warmup, the 100 started later, usually there is more of a mix.
Click to expand...

I was walking the BE100 as the BE90 went round and was really shocked at how tired some of the horses and riders looked too. That hill is a serious pull though so they may have looked very different going round a flat track.
I think there is so little opportunity to ride across all sorts of terrain anymore that people don't learn how to balance themselves to help their horse. We spend so long doing dressage and show jumping on perfect surfaces that we neglect the XC (myself included!)
 
James6 said:
I was walking the BE100 as the BE90 went round and was really shocked at how tired some of the horses and riders looked too. That hill is a serious pull though so they may have looked very different going round a flat track.
I think there is so little opportunity to ride across all sorts of terrain anymore that people don't learn how to balance themselves to help their horse. We spend so long doing dressage and show jumping on perfect surfaces that we neglect the XC (myself included!)
Click to expand...
I think you are right about no opportunity to ride enough on varied terrain and the need to get good dressage scores, however it is just as well that riders went down hill first and up at the end otherwise more may have struggled to get home.The riders need to be fitter if they are going to progress and help when the horse tires.
Firewell I dont think anyone is getting at you, there is a big difference between a rider going slowly and having an educational run to build on, and a rider trying for the time and pushing an unfit, tiring horse when the rider is also tired and getting unbalanced. You had a great day despite your reservations about going, you will have a real prospect for next season.
 
ditto the above poster - firewell, I don't think any of the comments are aimed at you - I don't believe you were sitting like a sack of potatoes on your horse's back all the way around!

Re. going slowly - I think that there is an occasional place for it. I also think that it does not hurt a green horse to be asked to maintain a consistent rhythm all the way around. I also do not believe in particularly setting any of mine up for fences that are suitable for being taken out of a stride. For most sections of the course I did not have to change my canter for the jumps or in between the jumps - I was able to keep rolling at the same pace. To me this is the best education for the young horse (I was about 15 seconds under in the BE90, so near on just right) There are some horses that maybe do need a bit more help - but even with my very 'onward' mare, it is always better to let them keep rolling in a rhythm then to spend a long time setting up. They MUST learn to sort themselves out and back themselves off naturally when required.

It does take some practice to get used to jumping out of your stride though, and something that probably doesn't get done enough in XC schooling sessions as requires a bit of space and planning. Bit scary when you are first getting used to it too I would think.
 
Thing is though, aren't the BE80 and the BE90 (to a lesser extent) designed for people who are just getting into eventing and learning the ropes. Yes, I agree it doesn't look pretty - but I thought the BE80 came with some pro guidance which should hopefully move them on to bigger and better things.

I know I feel dreadful if I feel out of puff after going xc (although never enough to sit down!) and maybe for many people this was their first one and they didn't realise quite how tiring it would be. Yes I know preparation and practise should come into it, but realistically most reasonably fittish horses could go round a BE80 without dropping dead (which I'm guessing none did?!).

Ok, so I guess my point is (I'll get around to it eventually!) that for many this is their first time, yes and many will be adults who were not lucky enough to have ponies and learn as kids, but we all have to start somewhere! Maybe its up to BE to do more in their newsletters to promote horse AND rider fitness pre season? (as ultimately any accidents come back on BE)
 
I don't think there is ever any excuse for unfit horses or riders at the lower levels. 4minutes of cantering in a forward rhythm over varied terrain should not be a huge ask for any horse who is worked consistently and correctly. My unhorsey but learning OH was quite shocked at how fat and unfit some horses looked at BE90 level, and I was even more shocked by people who couldn't SJ without being out of puff!!

Slow for experience is very different to unfit and slow, and I really do cringe at how many people sit bolt upright all the way round. I do think it should be something that is educated to people, and riders who are on obviously unfit horses/obviously unfit themselves should be chatted to about management IMHO. :(
 
Re the question of BE80 and 90 being "educational" classes . . . the intention is that they are introduction to COMPETING (affiliated competing, at that) NOT doing the job at hand. It's curious that people complain about the "nanny state" telling them what to do with their horses then complain because the powers that be don't tell them enough about what to do with their horses. ;)

I think the presumption is anyone going out to compete has made a study of the rules, is aware the standards required and has spent time, effort and money learning the appropriate skills, including how to judge pace and the horse's fitness. Why would anyone NOT do that? (That's rhetorical. ;) ) It's very easy to get a lesson or go to a clinic with the express intention of asking an experienced adviser if horse and rider are up to the job. Heck, it's easy to canter for whatever the time is allowed in a light seat and make sure you can do it. It really isn't rocket science.

Quite apart from whether or not it's harmful to the horse, there's always lots of fussing about safety but really, you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. Officials can't tell competitors their concerns because those people are "still learning". But the competitors are not under any obligation to do their own homework? So who is supposed to be in change, then? There seem to be lots of people who consider lessons and competing an "either/or" financially . . . who looks out for them if they're not looking out for themselves? Especially when there's such a push to not let people get hurt or even have their confidence dented!

Sorry, I know I've gone off on a complete rant and it is totally NOT my business but really, what is anyone supposed to do? If they put in an obligation for people to get assessed before they competed, everyone would scream the place down.
 
Having done a bit of PC teaching this year for the first time in years it is definitely adults that are the problem.

In our RC there are so many that are uneducated and know no better. They are not likely to really get picked up on it either unlike PC. So how do you educate them? Unfortunately it is virtually impossible to get across to them what you need to because ultimately if an instructor tells them straight they will move to another one.

This is where perhaps BE need to be more proactive? As really they are the only ones who can perhaps be 'blunt' about it. There should be education officers at events to help educate people like this who live in a bubble.

BTW last week - in a BE90 equivelent class in my RC team - one fell off who should know better because they had no studs in, one had riding so shocking that they should never have been there and one is a bit hit and miss but learning and getting better. This is probably typical of most RCs!
 
Last edited:
It is an interesting problem I also witnessed this at an event this year where incidently they scheduled the BE80 as the last class of the day because it is a known fact there will be more delays in this class than nearly any other.

We have a very effective system of monitoring people that ride too fast or dangerously or even abuse the horse so why can't this system be used for these classes. If a horse is clearly not fit enough (going slowly is fine but going slowly because they are too unfit to do more is not) then the stewards should have a uiet word and if nec the horses placed on the watch list for its next event. At an affiliated event surely it is within BE powers to educate and monitor.
 
There were a couple of occasions at Pulborough in the BE8 where contol asked jump judges to stop riders on course for safety reasons due to the lack of riding ability and also treatment of a horses!!!
 
I don't expect the nanny state to tell me what to do with my horses, as I am, after all perfect :p

But for many older horse riders they just may not know. They may have lessons every week with someone who tells them they are great and how they should enter this event, that event etc and that they are doing fine. Of course, 'instructor' is not really doing anyone any favours apart from their own pocket ;) Some of these uneducated people may well be crying out wanting someone to help them, educate them and point them in the right direction. Trouble is, if you don't know any better and a 'professional' is telling you you are great and you have no other opinions, where does that leave you? (Of course many riders will not want any help, and think they know it all).

It is great sitting here saying people shouldn't do this and that, but many of us will have learnt from ours and other people's mistakes, if you don't have the experience yourself, and don't have reliable people around you, I can imagine it is v difficult. Sadly in the horse world, there is no cut and dried answer to anything so learning when you know nothing and don't know who to trust is a minefield. And to that end, if BE are marketing the BE80 as an educational class then it is their responsibilty to educate people, as had they not created this class in the first place, many would not make the step up to affiliated, and would be bumbling around local shows. Maybe a BE80 clinic should be compulsory and you need to be signed off before you compete? Theoretical as well as practical. I'll never compete at BE80 - far too expensive for that level! :)
 
Good to meet another perfect person, Sf. ;)

My point was only that you can see the problem from this thread - more experienced people saying "Yes, they should be told. As gently as possible, perhaps, but without reservation." but others saying, "They're having a go, they should be left in peace because no one is perfect." It's tricky.

I do totally agree about the instructors but I do think, tbf, it's VERY difficult in this country. Lots of people take a lesson here or there but basically go their own way and would not take kindly to an instructor telling them not to compete. Yes, it may be in the instructor's best interests to keep teaching someone but also, would it be better if that person didn't get any instruction at all? Sometimes the only way to help people is to get them to stick around long enough to see the need for help. In the defense of instructors, it's very hard to strike a balance.

Personally, I think people should just be told. BUT I'm old, I started to ride as a kid, and I come from a time and a culture when it was very common for officials and even elder statesmen in the sport to simply tell people, point blank, if they weren't making the grade. And yes, it hurt people, but the theory was better offended than dead. ;) Plus, I think we just annoyed the people who knew more enough that they either wanted us to improve or go away. :)

Perhaps a "you should" list might be a place to start? Such as, "You should be able to canter four minutes in forward seat, without having to sit back down in the saddle." "You should be able to jump a course of 10 sjs without feeling out of breath." Etc. I'm not saying people would necessarily DO it but if they didn't it would open the door for officials to comment with impunity, or at least ask if the person had fulfilled the criteria set out.
 
I think that most riders at the lower levels will have dressage or jumping lessons, possibly regularly, XC lessons are going to be less available and even then the emphasis will most likely to be on the jumping not riding between the fences.
A pre season clinic would be ideal but would those most in need want to attend, also if it was compulsory BE would have to arrange so many as people may start later in the year.
Possibly a signed form to state that every rider has had a xc training session with an accredited trainer or from their pc, before issuing tickets or new membership.
As I said earlier in this thread the trainers were not really available at the two BE 80s I was at this year.
Maybe the trainer could be by the finish with radio contact so any rider causing concern on the course could have an immediate de-brief and some advice for the future, with any really bad riding being referred for training, as I believe can happen when getting too fast time penalties.
 
Stencilface said:
I don't expect the nanny state to tell me what to do with my horses, as I am, after all perfect :p

But for many older horse riders they just may not know. They may have lessons every week with someone who tells them they are great and how they should enter this event, that event etc and that they are doing fine. Of course, 'instructor' is not really doing anyone any favours apart from their own pocket ;) Some of these uneducated people may well be crying out wanting someone to help them, educate them and point them in the right direction. Trouble is, if you don't know any better and a 'professional' is telling you you are great and you have no other opinions, where does that leave you? (Of course many riders will not want any help, and think they know it all).

It is great sitting here saying people shouldn't do this and that, but many of us will have learnt from ours and other people's mistakes, if you don't have the experience yourself, and don't have reliable people around you, I can imagine it is v difficult. Sadly in the horse world, there is no cut and dried answer to anything so learning when you know nothing and don't know who to trust is a minefield. And to that end, if BE are marketing the BE80 as an educational class then it is their responsibilty to educate people, as had they not created this class in the first place, many would not make the step up to affiliated, and would be bumbling around local shows. Maybe a BE80 clinic should be compulsory and you need to be signed off before you compete? Theoretical as well as practical. I'll never compete at BE80 - far too expensive for that level! :)
Click to expand...

I think the clinic idea is a good one, or maybe some kind of low-level competency test for anyone starting out at BE. Juniors have to do it don't they? If these adult riders don't realise that what they're doing isn't helping their horse or themselves, someone needs to tell them. :( :( :(
I don't think anyone was getting at you, Firewell, there's a gulf of difference between giving a horse a quiet steady run and crawling around. Cantering really really slowly around the xc is dangerous imho, the fences aren't designed to be dribbled into, even at that level... for starters, all the distances will be all over the shop if you come in at a dribble. A decent canter pace for 4-5 mins shouldn't be difficult to achieve fitness-wise, any horse which has been schooled on the flat will have been doing 'interval training' and will be up to that much, no?!
 
Surely before leaping into BE, these people will have had the sense to make sure they and their horse can easily get round an unaff course of similar height / length within the time without fitness issues? :eek: I know there's a big difference between some unaffiliated places and BE courses, but if you're considering going BE, surely you would go to tougher unaff places first and school over BE courses in a "mock competition" style??

I wouldn't dream of taking mine out unless I was sure I could stay off his back the whole way round and he would still be forward going into the very last fence (I do not want him injuring himself). Which at current fitness means I wouldn't dream of taking him BE at all :cool:
 
But JFTD, many of these people will now not do the unaff classes as BE now offer a small option, plus we all know its up to safety standards, which at some unaff events, safety leaves a lot to be desired so people may choose BE over unaff for that reason.

Of course, safety standards go out the window when you have seriously unfit people/horses going round. I think BE making things easier will have increased the number of people competing who are not up to it fitness/experience wise so maybe they should introduce clinics or a list of ideals as mentioned above?
 
Stencilface said:
But JFTD, many of these people will now not do the unaff classes as BE now offer a small option, plus we all know its up to safety standards, which at some unaff events, safety leaves a lot to be desired so people may choose BE over unaff for that reason.
Click to expand...

I do understand that some places have seriously dodgy courses and with BE you can expect a reasonable quality of course in that sense - but surely there are unaff events run over BE courses? And plenty of opportunity to hire them for schooling, during which surely you can work on fitness? Is it just a status thing - people leaping into BE so they can say they do it?

I'm not disputing the logic of BE introducing compulsory training or producing lists of that sort, it's sensible to me, but what do I know - I don't BE! I'm just astounded that people would take that sort of risk with their horses by taking them out when not fit enough for the job...
 
Some of the hunt ODEs and HTs near me are terrifying, one had 40 fences on it, and some of the fences were huge - thankfully I walked the course the day before and decided it wasn't for me :D
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top