Lack of fitness over the BE 80 course (Pulborough)

LEC said:
Unfortunately sometimes the best way to learn is through failure.
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Hmm, i don't know if that's an acceptable attitude when there's a horse involved really, even if we don't give a damn about the rider... ;) ;) ;) and i do, actually. people need to know that what they're doing is endangering them to an unnecessary degree.
as TS says, maybe this, fairly impersonal as it is, is the medium for that now. can we really expect BE to inform and check and train riders to the Nanny State degree? Or is this, as it always was, something for riders and trainers to help other riders with?
if you were an experienced mountaineer, halfway up a mountain, and you saw some rookie doing something clueless and downright dangerous, wouldn't you think "i owe it to them (and the generous people who helped me when i was clueless) to tell them, before disaster strikes" - as we all know, being crap at xc is chuffing dangerous... being crap at most other things is just embarrassing and expensive. ;) ;)
it's so easy to sound sanctimonious, and i'm sure i do here, so apologies, but when i started eventing i'd already done literally years of hunting, then WHP and SJing, then hunter trials. back then, prob because we started at Novice, you did NOT go eventing without having a clue about jumping. the emphasis nowadays is so much more on the dressage (the easiest to practice, of course) which it never was before.
quite apart from fellow feeling ('no man is an island' and all that) the horse's fate really should make us all more willing to try to change the zeitgeist too... although i'm sure if they had a vote they'd all stand in the start box saying "can i be ridden round by Mark Todd please, i think he's more likely to get me round here safely than you are, mother." ;) ;)
 
I have pulled up more than one climber for doing stupidly dangerous, or simply just stupid things, and not one has got nasty with me about it - they've all said thankyou. Now look at the number of threads on here, in NL especially, where someone has posted a 'rant' because another person has dared to question how they are doing something - without fail everyone agrees that it was completely out of order of the person 'butting in'. No wonder no-one tells people when they are doing things badly/wrong or just not in the best way. I know I wouldn't in a riding situation unless asked a direct question!! I did tell some poor girl that she would get E if she didn't get out of the warmup with her beagler on and stick a harnessed hat on PDQ in the BE100 at West Wilts though - she was very grateful!

ETA: Avthechav, thanks, the cheque is in the post ;)
 
SpottedCat said:
I have pulled up more than one climber for doing stupidly dangerous, or simply just stupid things, and not one has got nasty with me about it - they've all said thankyou. Now look at the number of threads on here, in NL especially, where someone has posted a 'rant' because another person has dared to question how they are doing something - without fail everyone agrees that it was completely out of order of the person 'butting in'. No wonder no-one tells people when they are doing things badly/wrong or just not in the best way. I know I wouldn't in a riding situation unless asked a direct question!! I did tell some poor girl that she would get E if she didn't get out of the warmup with her beagler on and stick a harnessed hat on PDQ in the BE100 at West Wilts though - she was very grateful!
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Interesting to hear, i just plucked that example out of the blue. i've never done any mountaineering in my life but i'd be very grateful for any advice that would help me if i was halfway up a rockface!
so, wtf is it with horsey people that everyone thinks it's unacceptable to say something? seriously? it's not busybodying, sometimes it is genuine fellow-feeling... seeing a disaster waiting to happen and wanting to try to avert it, for everyone's sakes.
is it because there's an easy avoidance-of-ultimate-responsibility - a rider can always put their faith in their (hopefully clever, genuine, athletic!) horse helping them out if all else fails, whereas with other dangerous activities the onus of responsibility is 100% on the person, no question, no excuses?
 
Go to any 80cm Unaff event or HT and you will see lots of examples of the things talked about here. So why when BE reduce down to unaff level are people surprised to see these things?
Back when BE80T was introduced as a training class I predicted it would soon become just BE80 with the T (training) bit disappearing which is pretty much what has happened.
You see the same issues in SJ now BS has 70cm/80cm classes.

If you think things are bad now just wait until BE70 is introduced. Oh yes, it will happen!
 
kerilli said:
Interesting to hear, i just plucked that example out of the blue. i've never done any mountaineering in my life but i'd be very grateful for any advice that would help me if i was halfway up a rockface!
so, wtf is it with horsey people that everyone thinks it's unacceptable to say something? seriously? it's not busybodying, sometimes it is genuine fellow-feeling... seeing a disaster waiting to happen and wanting to try to avert it, for everyone's sakes.
is it because there's an easy avoidance-of-ultimate-responsibility - a rider can always put their faith in their (hopefully clever, genuine, athletic!) horse helping them out if all else fails, whereas with other dangerous activities the onus of responsibility is 100% on the person, no question, no excuses?
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Re. the mountaineering example, usually there is one correct way and the other is the ‘hello gravity’ way :D
So offering help is free from opinions and grey areas and is a simple matter.
This goes for a lot of sports such as sailing, kayaking whatever. If someone is doing it wrong its very obvious e.g. that knot is wrong, your harness is not attached correctly, you’re going to capsize if you do that etc. Things that can be judged at a glance by an experienced person.

Offering help in the horsey world is full of the grey areas involving factors that can’t often be judged at a glance, age/experience of horse or background and experience of rider etc. I would rarely offer help or opinions for those reasons, what I may be seeing e.g. horse having a tantrum and rider not coping maybe more complicated than that and related to something I can’t take in at a glance. It's such a difficult one:rolleyes:
 
Molasses said:
Offering help in the horsey world is full of the grey areas involving factors that can’t often be judged at a glance, age/experience of horse or background and experience of rider etc. I would rarely offer help or opinions for those reasons, what I may be seeing e.g. horse having a tantrum and rider not coping maybe more complicated than that and related to something I can’t take in at a glance. It's such a difficult one:rolleyes:
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probably the best post I've seen on HHO :D
 
yes, i totally see that, very good point, but we're talking about glaringly obvious dangerous practices here, aren't we? e.g. riders having no idea about how to ride xc, or being extremely overweight and/or unfit, or having their horses terribly unfit (puffed out after a BE80?), or crawling around fixed fences at snail's pace... not exactly a difficult call for anyone reasonably experienced to tell that those are not safe practices. :( :( :(
 
Interesting debate I have kicked off then. I don't accept any of the possible excuses offered either!. I do not come from a horsey family at all so when I went eventing, I was totally "home grown". I did, however, go to watch a LOT of events to understand the process, how people rode and what type of horses were being succesful. That was a very very long time ago and when I finally started eventing, I too read the handbook and did as much prep and training as I could. I still go and watch XC at events, thanks to H&C I can watch a lot of XC and learn a lot from the good and the bad.

I agree that unaffiliated courses can often be pretty nasty so no, I wouldn't run my horses over them anymore either. I don't normally comment on what people are doing - quite frankly I think most people who have actually made the effort to compete and are doing it deserve all the credit they can get but that does not apply to riding XC that unfit!

Only caveat I would say about the SJ at Pulborough though was a friend of mine was eliminated in this phase, despite being well prepared and easily able to jump a course of that size. In her case it was most definatly nerves as it was her first time. Her mare took charge and she backed off - which she wouldn't do normally. She is now set for a winter of SJ with all of us to get her over that - but she was fit enough to have completed the entire event and I really felt for her. She has put an awful lot of hours in with her training (all 3 stages) , going out, fittening and deserved a better finish.

I didn't know about the trainers supposed to be present as I have never done this class myself. Shame if they are going as that sounded like a good idea. I don't think we can ask BE to really put the entire training infrastructure into place for us either though - thats not what they are set upto but if it is that hard to find training info on their site then their attention should be drawn to that.

And again, before I get shot down. There is an obvious and massive difference between someone taking out a young horse and giving it room and someone sitting heavily on a horses back when they are both clearly struggling.
 
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I will stick my oar into this now :)

Firstly - unfit horses. Yes they should be fit enough to go around the course. I went to a hunter trial a couple of years ago with Henry. I was under the impression that he had been exercised for me whilst I was away during the week, and therefore should have been fit enough. Got to the end of the course, he was huffing and puffing away, and clearly wasnt fit enough. Later found out, he hadn't been ridden for me at all, but I did not know.

Secondly - unfit riders? Again, example with said horse above. Flat out gallop at home, stood up no problems. Days hunting, stood up most of the day, not a problem. Get on XC course, out of breath by the third/fourth jump. Why - generally because horse was a g1t, and keeping on top of him running out/napping/doing something else naughty took up a load of my energy.

So why didn't I get myself fitter? Twelve hours a day working nowhere near home or stables means its a choice of getting you or the horse fit. When Henry was eventing fit I was getting home at 830 every evening - no way was I even going to attempt to go to a gym after that.

Now I am fit (applying for RAF), I have no time to ride a horse.
 
Thing is, can all us lucky people who have grown up on ponies, honestly say they did things this way? I did my first ode on my first pony when I was 9, I honestly can't remember doing any training beforehand, I just flapped my legs and got him over, it wasn't pretty! (and this would have all been done with no BP either, and a v stylish white helmet with no silk ;) )This upgraded to a bigger pony who was a better jumper, and I became more competent. I would have done my first xc on him (13.2 over 2'6 - 2'9) with no training either. I did join the PC but only remember one xc training on him, when I was at the stage of outgrowing him anyway. We rarely went xc schooling - and then it would have just been us bashing round the local unaff courses.

It is impossible for adults learning on horses to turn back the clock, and I bet you if they were 9 years old, riding terribly and making mistakes, the reactions on here wouldn't quite be the same, after all - kids bounce and ponies are clever!

It probably took me a few years to be competent at xc, but I was lucky enough to start aged 9, not 29,39 etc.

And obviously these people need to improve, but it has to be done by BE, as they are the ones positively encouraging people to 'have a bash' by introducing smaller classes, as said above, in the old days you just didn't even try BE unless you were already pretty experienced as it started at such a higher level. Trouble is also, with many of the riders having all the latest safety equipment (mentioning no names!) they probably feel like they have bought their safety, so don't need to be as good. Of course, it would be safer if they spent the £400 on lessons/clinics than an air bag, similar to the way we have driving lessons before driving 2 tonnes of metal on the roads - people need training before being put vaguely in charge of half a ton of horse :)
 
kerilli said:
yes, i totally see that, very good point, but we're talking about glaringly obvious dangerous practices here, aren't we? e.g. riders having no idea about how to ride xc, or being extremely overweight and/or unfit, or having their horses terribly unfit (puffed out after a BE80?), or crawling around fixed fences at snail's pace... not exactly a difficult call for anyone reasonably experienced to tell that those are not safe practices. :( :( :(
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Oooh but glaring obvious or not ‘not fit’ and ‘overweight’ are not simple things to call a person up on. Each example you give all I see are grey grey areas and my unfit might not be another persons definition. Or when one person might see unsafe, another might just see green. It’s a tough one. It’s a nightmare calling people up when the people are nervous, at a comp, with all that goes with that. I find calling people up for silly things at tack-check at PC events grueling enough never mind watching them out on course!

Even sailing I would find it easy to say ‘your lifejacket is on backwards’ but I would swallow my words when it came to saying ‘you’re too fat to get in the boat!” lol!
Honestly it’s not safe to be overweight and unfit no matter what the sport but you have to be a very blunt or very good at getting away with saying contentious things to tell people they’re too fat for the rope/boat/horse/bike whatever. People have found themselves deeply in-trouble for saying less. What I'm saying is I agree, but I just don't know how you'd go about it:o
 
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Just to add.

(I have Be'd to IN for a number of years)

I entered a BE80 as my mare first event this year (We did not make it but that is another story), yes they are expensive but there was nothing else on unaff and I wanted to do a BE90 a few weeks later.

I did not enter for the "training" element, however as that was what I should be getting, I was very interested to "enjoy" the whole experience. However the course walks were at such stupid times, I think I would have needed to get there 4hrs early to do them.

I did email the event to compain (Before I withdrew), but they did not seem bothered. If you had paid for a ticket etc expecting support you would have been very disappointed.

This does not help those "trying" to get into eventing.

I was lucky, when I started (PN in those days) I had a friend who was doing novice and just about to go intermediate, she was trained by a 4* rider. I went to some events on foot with her and learnt the ropes from her, same with doing a 2-day etc etc. That is really what people need to do.
 
I event at 80-90 level and I'd have to say I think for as many unfit horses there are those like myself who work to keep there horses fit for the job.
I have seen some who obviously are struggling, but please don't paint us all with the same brush.
The comments made when we were last out were.... Here we have so and so absolutely romping home ! Have also had absolutely flying finish for this combination.
So while there are some unfit, there's others like mine who could probably run the thing again they're so fit
 
I think that it is an industry wide problem and not one that is just limited to an individual discipline. I think that owning, loaning, sharing a horse has now become a lot more accessible to a wider audience of people.

I think a lot more people are entering the industry from an unknowledgable background and no longer having lessons, not learning the basics of horse care, just muddling through.

My mum runs a livery yard and has done for many years now and the current liveries at least 50% of the owners are very definately novice who in the last 5 - 8 years have gone out and bought a horse to keep, ride and look after with no previous experience to draw on. In that time since starting out only a couple have had any lessons at all and most have relied on (although at times unwillingly) the experience of other people on the yard to point out any shortfalls.

I ended up moving off the yard over 3 years ago to my own place as I was getting tired and run down and not spending time on my horses for continually looking out for the safetly and well being of others. I have had and been involved with horses for 20 years now and still consider myself to need instruction and tutition for both myself and the horses I ride.

A lot of these people have now bought trailers and transport and are heading out to shows and events and hiring courses for the day to 'have a go round'. Some of these people who I know, don't know how to get the horse working properly, or to get the horse fit. So in some respects it is understandable that some (not all) will be falling short at events.

In the event environment I don't think the criticism or instruction comes over well from your ridden peers, you can be nervous, excited, having a bad day and any criticism can go down the wrong way. Helpful points should could from people on the ground who are able to focus and possibly take in more of the issues experienced and pointers offered in a calm and constructive manor. This however doesn't help with underlying fitness issues and no advice on a event field will go down well about how to improve your horses fitness, (theres no 15min fix).

Whilst the experience of the newcomers to the industry that I have are only entering unaffilliated competitions at the moment it doesn't mean that they don't have aspirations to go further. What is being seen may only be the start of things to come as it becomes more accessible to a wider audience.

Robert
 
Stencilface said:
Thing is, can all us lucky people who have grown up on ponies, honestly say they did things this way? I did my first ode on my first pony when I was 9, I honestly can't remember doing any training beforehand, I just flapped my legs and got him over, it wasn't pretty! (and this would have all been done with no BP either, and a v stylish white helmet with no silk ;) )This upgraded to a bigger pony who was a better jumper, and I became more competent. I would have done my first xc on him (13.2 over 2'6 - 2'9) with no training either. I did join the PC but only remember one xc training on him, when I was at the stage of outgrowing him anyway. We rarely went xc schooling - and then it would have just been us bashing round the local unaff courses.

It is impossible for adults learning on horses to turn back the clock, and I bet you if they were 9 years old, riding terribly and making mistakes, the reactions on here wouldn't quite be the same, after all - kids bounce and ponies are clever!

It probably took me a few years to be competent at xc, but I was lucky enough to start aged 9, not 29,39 etc.

And obviously these people need to improve, but it has to be done by BE, as they are the ones positively encouraging people to 'have a bash' by introducing smaller classes, as said above, in the old days you just didn't even try BE unless you were already pretty experienced as it started at such a higher level. Trouble is also, with many of the riders having all the latest safety equipment (mentioning no names!) they probably feel like they have bought their safety, so don't need to be as good. Of course, it would be safer if they spent the £400 on lessons/clinics than an air bag, similar to the way we have driving lessons before driving 2 tonnes of metal on the roads - people need training before being put vaguely in charge of half a ton of horse :)
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And what also helps is that children go out to lessons, or go hunting and get told to get out the saddle. Because they're younger, and tend to go XC as par for the course rather than doing lots of dressage and SJ and then going XC. Then, because they don't have the skills they do lots of practising cantering in a slightly faster rhythm with the instructor shouting "Out the saddle!" and other such advice. By the time they're doing proper courses, they can ride in a decent 2-point seat regardless of what else is going on. Plus, children are more easily guided/ criticised.
 
Molasses said:
Oooh but glaring obvious or not ‘not fit’ and ‘overweight’ are not simple things to call a person up on. Each example you give all I see are grey grey areas and my unfit might not be another persons definition. Or when one person might see unsafe, another might just see green. It’s a tough one. It’s a nightmare calling people up when the people are nervous, at a comp, with all that goes with that. I find calling people up for silly things at tack-check at PC events grueling enough never mind watching them out on course!

Even sailing I would find it easy to say ‘your lifejacket is on backwards’ but I would swallow my words when it came to saying ‘you’re too fat to get in the boat!” lol!
Honestly it’s not safe to be overweight and unfit no matter what the sport but you have to be a very blunt or very good at getting away with saying contentious things to tell people they’re too fat for the rope/boat/horse/bike whatever. People have found themselves deeply in-trouble for saying less. What I'm saying is I agree, but I just don't know how you'd go about it:o
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yes, but i did say "extremely overweight and/or unfit", not just mildly so... we've all been there. ;) ;)
it is policed, somewhat, already. a BE official told me he had prevented a very overweight rider from going xc after she was red-flagged in the dr, so he watched her sj (appallingly) and refused to let her go xc. i gather it was because she was horribly overweight and a terrible rider, not just overweight. she was of course livid...
so, without "official" clout, i suppose it is impossible. all we can do is hope that riders will watch the top boys and girls and see how it is supposed to look, perhaps? learn by example, as a lot of us have tried to do. make sure trainers have the courage and back-up to feel able to tell the truth? at the moment there is a culture of 'taking my custom to someone else who will be nice to me', maybe. :( :( :(
so, do we all want BE to spend money on 'policing' things more strictly? is that the answer? that it becomes more of a 'nannying' body than just a competition body? BE to give SJ judges a lot more say in eliminating a combination, say, if they look unsafe?
 
Perhaps have the vet at the xc finish of BE80 / 90 to check any tired looking combinations. Word would soon get round and also give the opportunity to educate.
 
I think they have made a rod for their own backs doing the smaller classes. I entered what was a pre novice 15 years ago now, and it was huge (I'm sure it was, not just the age thing!) I definitely needed to be prepared for it (as it was event was cancelled, and I remember feeling an enormous sense of relief :o )

Before inexperienced people would have stuck to local shows, but now they are more in the limelight I think due to competing at affiliated events. BE should do something to maintain some form of professionalism amongst themselves I think. :)
 
For the person who said about getting eliminated in the sj my boy is a spooky bu*ger in the sj but he loves xc and although much greener xc the sj would be where we were likely to get eliminated, this is why I havnt taken him out yet as I want the sj sorted before I pay loads of money to be eliminated in the sj (not that funds would allow BE being a skint student).
I could also be seen sitting down xc as when he backs off and spooks at the fence judge I feel much more secure using my seat as well to get him back on track but between fences I do stand up, I also sit on the approach to fences as with a known stopper it makes me much more secure although as he gets better I need to sit for less time, so if you only watched a little bit of my round then yes I would look diffrent.
When we make our BE debut I would be more than grateful for any tips from more expiereanced competitors so if you see me on a little yellow pony then please help us :) :o.
 
I think i'm guilty of having been one of the dangerous riders with no clue..

I got my first horse later on in life and missed out on the pony club childhood. My first experience of anything xc competition type related (rather than pootling around in the field) was taking my horse to a xc training day with a friend and her trainer. I muddled through the first bit but then struggled to get over one of the jumps. The friends trainer suggested getting a lead to which my horse promptly bolted, overtook the lead, and then refused the jump resulting in us getting T-boned by the other horse and me flying over the other side. I can always remember the lady (organiser) who caught my horse furiously berating me for riding dangerously and calming my horse by saying what a crap owner it had whilst gently stroking her.

This was 10 years ago and I still go bright red just thinking about it. With hindsight I should never have attempted it and it certainly made me obsessively over the top about being prepared for any classes we entered in the future.

I think it is ultimately down to BE and I don't necessarily think it means that we are becoming a nanny state. If they are encouraging the sport to be more accessible by having smaller classes, then they have a responsibility to horses and riders to ensure their safety. That might mean having someone assessing the dressage and showjumping and then giving permission to ride the xc part rather than competitors assuming eligibility for all 3 phases.
 
JunoXV said:
Perhaps have the vet at the xc finish of BE80 / 90 to check any tired looking combinations. Word would soon get round and also give the opportunity to educate.
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so, either BE or the Organiser would have to pay for an additional vet to be there all day watching combinations finish...?! big expense.

dafthoss, there's a huge difference between sitting up in a driving/defensive position because your horse is spooky and/or playing the left-right game, etc, and sitting bolt upright between fences when the horse should just be travelling nicely underneath you.
if you haven't seen it, you wouldn't believe it... ;) ;) i've seen it between the last few fences on a CIC* course (shocking, overweight rider bumping on horse's back, no balance and no idea of getting off its back) and also round a whole unaff long-format steeplechase... cannot have been comfortable!
 
I think it does go on to an extent - but lets face it, the people who need the advice don't want to hear it. I've written for dressage judges who have flagged people for being unsafe (one in a CCI* FGS), they've then been watched XC, spoken to and because they completed, they dismissed it. I know of someone else who was spoken to by two incredible trainers, and both times dismissed their comments out of hand as being wrong. I think this is what LEC means by having to learn through failure. I don't think there is an answer, easy or otherwise.
 
kerilli said:
so, either BE or the Organiser would have to pay for an additional vet to be there all day watching combinations finish...?! big expense.
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Why would they need an additional vet?
I simply suggest having the vet stationed at the finish when not required on course to deal with an accident rather than sitting somewhere else.
If called away so be it but otherwise could monitor fitness at finish. If they only saw 50% of the tired finishers then its better than none.
 
JunoXV said:
Why would they need an additional vet?
I simply suggest having the vet stationed at the finish when not required on course to deal with an accident rather than sitting somewhere else.
If called away so be it but otherwise could monitor fitness at finish. If they only saw 50% of the tired finishers then its better than none.
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ah right, okay. i thought you meant have 1 vet there to watch every horse finish. i think they do get called all over quite a lot, i've seen a vet in the lorry park attending to horses fairly frequently for e.g.

SC, yes, you just reminded me of a very similar, gob-smacking situation. i suppose it all seems alright until it all goes very wrong... :( :( :(
i just don't get how people can be so delusional though?!?! nowadays it is pretty cheap and easy to get someone to video you going round, and a little bit of self-crit (or being brave and throwing yourself to the wolves on here) should be enough, no?
maybe it's a case of not knowing what it should feel like, too, same as with dressage... it's hard to get it right if you don't know what 'right' feels like...
 
Leaving aside the spooky vibe . . .

The fact is, you can't help all of the people all of the time. There are always going to be people who don't want to know, same as it ever was, even when old, cranky people were allowed to yell with impunity at the new recruits. I clearly remember thinking the old delusional people had no clue and simply couldn't see how wonderful I was. ;)

BUT I still think it helps to have a bash, both for the people who really don't know and to drop it into the back of the minds of the people who think they do know better so when it does go a little bit wrong they say, "Hmm, maybe this is what they were talking about," instead of "Everybody feels like this!" and have a rethink before it really goes off the rails. Maybe the message to get out there is you don't actually have to be afraid/out of control/floundering, there is information out there and people are happy to give it. All this stuff is very teachable. And I'm sorry, it's a LOT more fun and rewarding (and cheaper over the long haul) if you know what you're doing.

I also think there's something to be said for making people responsible and making them feel badly if they don't bother. It's all very well to say people starting out don't know but there are legions of books available and reams of information free on the internet, any adult knows it's possible to FIND the information, there's no excuse for not looking, especially if with the risks involved. I'm sorry if that sounds condescending but if people have the wherewithal to get a horse, look after the horse, buy all the stuff, enter an event and get themselves there on the day, they are NOT ignorant people who need their hands held.
 
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Trouble is though TS - if you didn't know the right answer, could you honestly say you could find it reading forums like this? Some of the stuff written on here is mind boggling regarding just the care of horses, before you've even tacked up.

You can rarely trust information on the web. I don't know half as much as some people on here, I freely admit it, but I have been around horses long enough to know what is reasonable, and what is utter tosh - most of the time anyway ;)
 
Threads like these terrify me because I always think of times where I have sat on my horse's back or finished puffing, and then worry that I'm a horrendous rider and I should give up trying to event and stick to plodding around the lanes at home.
My biggest issue is holding my breath, so I finish puffing like a train because I've not been breathing properly! If someone was to suggest I work on my fitness, I would get defensive because I'm not unfit, I do an awful lot of running on a daily basis at work (keeping a ride of 8 lazy ponies going for an hour involves a LOT of running!! :D).

But there are people in everything who have a very strange opinion of there ability to ride and even more who are in a position to pass their 'knowledge' on! So some of these riders may be getting lots of 'training' by someone they think is the next big thing or would have been Mark Todd if they hadn't twisted their ankle walking the dog ;)
 
JunoXV said:
Perhaps have the vet at the xc finish of BE80 / 90 to check any tired looking combinations. Word would soon get round and also give the opportunity to educate.
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I think thats a good idea but ive seen others at, Higher level who have also struggled to finish .... We probably all have, it would be better to have a vet at the finish of the xc at all levels, if you think its just 80 and 90 classes this happens think again
 
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