Lack of respect/taking the mick advice please?

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Ellietotz

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Hello!
This might be long so please bear with.
As per my previous posts, my mare turned out to have ulcers which are now sorted and cleared up in just a months treatment before weaning off with no change in diet or exercise during.
I've had a good physio out twice since due to tension in her back when I took her back shoes off which turned out to be causing some back pain. Had the vet look her over to make sure she was all good too and said she's in very good condition.

So basically, I'm a firm believer that misbehaving is generally them telling us they are in pain BUT at what point do you decide that this is still the case or they are just taking the royal pi$$?

She's good as gold generally out hacking, hardly spooky anymore, much calmer and normally quite easy to get passed some little things that spook her. The problem I'm having though is when she has really decided she isn't doing something, she won't. She will spin, back up, little bucks and rears and we will battle for ages. I have tried every single approach from being calm, asking her nicely, making her stand and take a breather to growling, being firm, giving her a smack with the whip, kicking, all of which makes her even more resistant. After a while, I do sometimes get lucky and she will just trot passed eventually when I ask again but if not, I end up getting off and leading her for a bit before getting on again. It just makes me so frustrated that she won't do as I ask. Normally this happens if I try to take her a way where we have to go passed where the pigs live, she can't see or hear them, but she knows they are there. Before the ulcers were healed, we had a bad experience there when she really freaked out so even if I leave the yard and head in that direction, she will start her strop. If I try to make her do a jump heading back down to our yard, she will do it then too because she doesn't want to. She doesn't mind jumping when she's out but not at home for some reason. There are little things that scare her but not to the point where she wont go passed and it doesn't take much convincing but I just don't know how to get round this, I'm fed up of her being so stubborn and not listening to me. I don't want to be limited to where we go or what we do because of her being too scared to go one way or deciding something is going to kill her if we go passed it.

How can we overcome this? I don't want to keep fighting with her. It puts a downer on the whole ride and I get really upset when I have to be like that with her, I want it to be fun for both of us and she loves the whole ride normally aside from the moments. I can just take her out the ways I know we aren't going to have problems but I don't want to, I'm just as stubborn as she is!

Thank you for your help.
 
not tht i am taking the mares side but ain't horses naturally scared of pigs in general ?

not just that just because you can not hear the pigs doesn't mean she cant horses have amazing hearing and sense of smell so she will 100% know they are there!

cant offer any help other then my gelding was like this and we had ulcer trouble but once they where under control i used my Richard Maxwell pressure and realise head collar and asking him for help.
haven't looked back since
 
My lad was reluctant to walk passed an abandoned farmyard once. The other horse we were with wasn't exactly pleased but led us past it. Turns out the yard had been a pig farm and despite being abandoned for nearly a year, they still pick up on the smell. After going past calmly a couple of times he was fine with it but always stared at the entrance, just in case.
 
Horses are instinctively frightened of pigs - wild boar would attack small foals in the wild. Even the truly totally bombproof gelding that we had as a first horse was very wary of the local pig farm, honestly he was frightened of nothing else at all.

I would set some time aside, when you will not be in a hurry, to lead her up and down past the pigs until she is going happily, initially walk between her and the pigs, then lead her from the other side, when she is comfortable doing that, hop on and ride her back towards home, then ride backwards and forwards past them until she will just go past without a fuss. Do you know why she developed ulcers? Often they are in response to pain somewhere else.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Horses are instinctively frightened of pigs - wild boar would attack small foals in the wild. Even the truly totally bombproof gelding that we had as a first horse was very wary of the local pig farm, honestly he was frightened of nothing else at all.

I would set some time aside, when you will not be in a hurry, to lead her up and down past the pigs until she is going happily, initially walk between her and the pigs, then lead her from the other side, when she is comfortable doing that, hop on and ride her back towards home, then ride backwards and forwards past them until she will just go past without a fuss. Do you know why she developed ulcers? Often they are in response to pain somewhere else.
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I'm certain that the ulcers came from the loan home she went to before I had her from stress from travelling, not fed enough and constant exercise.
The problem isn't just with the pig area, it's whenever there is something she has decided she doesn't want to do. I can't make her do it, there aren't many things but this is the main one.
Today when it happened, I got off and just walked her round that area over and over. She was dripping with sweat from all the messing around and was genuinely scared of being right next to their pen. I get the fear of it and I'm willing to take the time for her to overcome this but it's the same if I want to do a jump back home for example, I can't force her to do it, even if it's just a small pole pretty much in the floor, if she doesn't want to, she won't. I wish she was more willing and just listened to me. She is fine all other times. Sometimes she might do it heading out the yard as well but we are getting over this now thankfully. Other than that, she's generally quite happy going for a hack and is forward going.
 
We had a pig farm down the lane from my last livery yard and even the saintly horses made huge fusses, so you are fighting a strong instinct with her. I know riders have different approaches to this sort of thing, lots of which are effective, but my approach is to avoid stresses especially when it comes to my mares. I would ride her out assertively right from the start, maybe get her doing a few little challenges if you get an opportunity...walk her past other mildly spooky things just to remind her gently of your leadership. Then as soon as she starts to tense up, I would hop off, walk confidently past with as little fuss as possible, get back on and off you go. I have done this successfully with quite a few youngsters and its always worked. As soon as you begin to get worked up, she will too and then it becomes a battle. Once she realises that going out with you means having fun, being safe and respecting you as her leader, she will have much better chance of overcoming the pig problem. The worse thing is when they anticipate a battle at the same part of the hack and it just reinforces the message that she doesn't feel safe going past there.
 
Ellietotz said:
at what point do you decide that this is still the case or they are just taking the royal pi$$?

She will spin, back up, little bucks and rears and we will battle for ages. I have tried every single approach from being calm, asking her nicely, making her stand and take a breather to growling, being firm, giving her a smack with the whip, kicking, all of which makes her even more resistant. .. Normally this happens if I try to take her a way where we have to go passed where the pigs live, she can't see or hear them, but she knows they are there.

... I don't want to, I'm just as stubborn as she is!
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You have acknowledged that she is scared of the pigs. She knows that they are there but she doesn't know exactly where. She will be able to smell them and probably hear them. So I just don't see why you even consider that she is 'just taking the royal pi$$' You might be stubborn but she is afraid to the point that this might be life threatening. And so she behaves accordingly. It's not lack of respect/taking the mickey. Her fear is so great that she is ignoring your commands. I think that by getting off and leading past you provide the reassurance and leadership that she needs at that time and place. I've been in exactly the same situation and my horse will follow my lead. I sometimes wonder, and I know they don't think exactly like this (!) but should the unseen pigs suddenly appear to eat us that she will be safe because she's faster and because I will be eaten first. Yes it's incredibly frustrating but sometimes you just have to do what you have to do ie get off and lead if that's the ride that you choose to go on.
 
You’ve just described the Prima Donna- she’s absolutely foot perfect and then out hacking she’ll spook at something in the hedge and refuse to go- reversing, spinning, bucking, mini rears, more reversing. In the beginning I’d be there for half an hour, but I’d always win in the end. Best thing I found was to sit it out, sigh, act completely bored and then just when I felt her getting fed up, I’d make her stand just a bit longer. 9 times out of 10 she’d go after this. The remaining one time she’d kick off again and I found raising my voice and telling her to get on and she’d go.
Nappy horses are a pain, but they can be sorted with time, patience and persistence.
 
Arzada said:
You have acknowledged that she is scared of the pigs. She knows that they are there but she doesn't know exactly where. She will be able to smell them and probably hear them. So I just don't see why you even consider that she is 'just taking the royal pi$$' You might be stubborn but she is afraid to the point that this might be life threatening. And so she behaves accordingly. It's not lack of respect/taking the mickey. Her fear is so great that she is ignoring your commands. I think that by getting off and leading past you provide the reassurance and leadership that she needs at that time and place. I've been in exactly the same situation and my horse will follow my lead. I sometimes wonder, and I know they don't think exactly like this (!) but should the unseen pigs suddenly appear to eat us that she will be safe because she's faster and because I will be eaten first. Yes it's incredibly frustrating but sometimes you just have to do what you have to do ie get off and lead if that's the ride that you choose to go on.
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The taking the mickey part was just a question! I think I'll have to do this. Although, what point should I get off? Shall I see how far I can convince her to go and get off before I think she will stop or shall I wait for her to stop and turn around then get off and lead her?
 
scats said:
You’ve just described the Prima Donna- she’s absolutely foot perfect and then out hacking she’ll spook at something in the hedge and refuse to go- reversing, spinning, bucking, mini rears, more reversing. In the beginning I’d be there for half an hour, but I’d always win in the end. Best thing I found was to sit it out, sigh, act completely bored and then just when I felt her getting fed up, I’d make her stand just a bit longer. 9 times out of 10 she’d go after this. The remaining one time she’d kick off again and I found raising my voice and telling her to get on and she’d go.
Nappy horses are a pain, but they can be sorted with time, patience and persistence.
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I did it for 50 minutes today. She span, I turned her round and clicked her on, she reared and span and we did this over and over. So I made her stand for 15 minutes. I just sat there for ages waiting for her to just calm down and she did. So I gently asked her again and got the same stuff. So I raise my voice and get stern and she gets more angry and we end up being in the same loop again. If it's something she finds scary that aren't the pigs and she does this, it'll only take a couple of goes and she will set off in trot to go passed. She used to go passed this area too before I became aware of the ulcers. In the end today, I just got off and walked her around the same bit for another 10 minutes, mounted right outside the pen and she continued on the hack fine. It's the same with jumping though, she will jump anything out on a hack but not a chance at home. Eventually I can get her over a few if I fancy attempting to school her. Takes a while and she will jump it once or twice before she's decided that's enough. She infuriates me but I love her so much!
 
It is frustrating one of my horses does not like being hacked alone I can get him a certain distance then he just refuses to go any further, to be fair to him his 12 and done hardly any hacking so I just hack him with someone now he gets so upset that I just don't think it worth pushing him, his fine in the school very well behaved and works nicely so that's enough for me.

Maybe just ride with another horse for a while then choose a very short route and walk her in hand alone a few times then attempt to ride that route, I found my horse is much better on a route we regularly ride and if I kept it short I mostly got away with him not napping.
 
Pinkvboots said:
It is frustrating one of my horses does not like being hacked alone I can get him a certain distance then he just refuses to go any further, to be fair to him his 12 and done hardly any hacking so I just hack him with someone now he gets so upset that I just don't think it worth pushing him, his fine in the school very well behaved and works nicely so that's enough for me.

Maybe just ride with another horse for a while then choose a very short route and walk her in hand alone a few times then attempt to ride that route, I found my horse is much better on a route we regularly ride and if I kept it short I mostly got away with him not napping.
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She's great going hacking, we can go out for hours, it's just that particular spot but if I do a different ride and don't go that way, I don't have any issues. I'm just being stubborn but I don't want to be limited to where we go because of her being worried about one place. She's absolutely fine when we are passed it and fine going passed heading home too. Getting her to jump when she doesn't want to is a different story though. Likes jumping when hacking, if there is no way to go round it of course. If there is an option of going round, she just doesn't see the need. God, that pony is like me in so many ways :lol:
 
Have you tried spinning her round, and asking her to go backwards in the direction you want to go when she naps? You can then spin back round and allow her to go forwards again. I have seen that be very effective, and it avoids the fight.
 
R2D2 said:
Have you tried spinning her round, and asking her to go backwards in the direction you want to go when she naps? You can then spin back round and allow her to go forwards again. I have seen that be very effective, and it avoids the fight.
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I haven't tried this as the place where it happens is downhill and didn't want her to rear in that direction! I really hope I can get her confidence up with this eventually, I hate it, makes something fun become rubbish!
 
Following with interest as mine is a pig to hack out alone too. Behaviour sounds identical to yours (though we don't have any pigs round by us - sheep are also terrifying though!).
Now that I've taken him barefoot, I'm planning on doing some walks out in hand, just the two of us. Building up his trust in me, stimulating his hooves at the same time; just short walks at first, building up in length, maybe even long reining if I find him calm enough with me on the ground; before graduating to riding.
I have no doubt that he is genuinely frightened - at least at first. I feel that if he just trusted me enough, I could get him past scary objects. We shall see...
 
They are really afraid of pigs unfortunately. Mine lives next to them and he'll still bolt across the field if they make a strange noise. All of the others have got used to it though. Dunno what to suggest as I haven't figured out the answer either. Maybe get someone to walk on the hack with you and lead her past? Mine is fine to walk past the pigs if he has someone on the ground with him.
 
Your girl is a bit tricky because she's not a simple one-or-the-other kind of horse - sometimes it is just her being a diva (and we know how much of a diva she can be!), sometimes it's genuine pain like the ulcers, or fear like this seems to be. The trick is telling them apart.

The thing I definitely hold with is that she should be looking to you for guidance, reassurance and instruction, even if she is scared or unsure. Just like I wrote in an early post when she was being bitey and I said that even if it was ulcers, expressing pain at times was acceptable but trying to bite your face off was not, this carrying on repeatedly in the same place is not acceptable, even if she is genuinely scared. She needs to be looking to you to for confidence and to know what to do in this situation. And that takes a bit of concentrated work and consistency.

So, I remind you to be very mindful of what you may be unconsciously communicating to her with your body language and attitude. If you're anticipating her doing this, she will read this as even you think this is something to be afraid of and will carry on. Adopt what I call the Mary Poppins attitude - everything is fine if she listens to you. Chin up, nothing to be frightened of here. Spit spot, no nonsense, do the job. It's not unsympathetic but it is authoritative.

I would be doing along the lines of what Pearlsasinger and others have said. Rather than trying to deal with it in the course of a hack, plan some sessions where you only go to the pig spot with the intention of just working on this problem. Show her the place. Let her have a good look and smell without the pressure of trying to ride past. Give her the time. Lead her past, around, through, whatever. Even maybe consider putting her on a lunge line when you're there so she has a bit of freedom of movement but can't completely bog off.

As for the not jumping at home issue, I would consider putting a stronger rider on her and see how you go. I remember you saying ages ago, just before she went off to the loan home, that you watched someone else riding her and they were getting very good work from her. I'd be very interested to see how a rider like that would fare with her now.
 
have you thought about paying the pigs a visit in hand? maybe that will show her that they're aren't that scary? I would agree also with the waiting till she wants to go then waiting some more till you're ready.

but it's the typical thing of you can't go out expecting to be able to get her past in 10 mins because it will take you 2 hours. If you go out expecting 2 hours it will take 10 mins.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
Horses are instinctively frightened of pigs - wild boar would attack small foals in the wild.
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And for flipping good reason! Wild boar live in a burrow natually and are such aggresive beasts that the males (who know no fear!) will come charging out to attack very,very suddenly. Do think of those damn great tusks that stick upwards from a boar's head - they will use them to disembowel an bigger animal.

There are a growing number of places that have wild boar running about today but much of the fear that the smell of pig creates in horses is instinct. You can't remove it - they fear a boar more than wolves! I spent many a happy hour in deep conversation with my old Irish Draught mare and failed to convince her that the ghosties in our wood weren't boar - "Ah now, I noe yur trin'ta kallumee dowan butt dem woods arh fuull of'em don'tchernoe!"

She would often break out into a foaming sweat and be almost uncontrollable if anything remotely piggy came to her vast nose - she'd come out of a riding school ( one of the poshest in the country but riding school nevertheless) and in consequence had been beaten mercilessly in the past - I Percy Veered non-violently and urge you to do the same.
 
tankgirl1 said:
No shame in getting off and leading her past something she deems as scary.
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That's what Fulmer International School of Equitation ( kneel before your superiors! Their opinion rather than mine) told me. I ended up with two foot paws being dangled rather too close to my face for comfort and when she eventually came back down - almost amputated a few toes.

I now follow my original teachers - cowboys - stay in the damn saddle, if you've lost control from there - you sure as hell ain't goanna find it on the ground!
 
OldFogie said:
I now follow my original teachers - cowboys - stay in the damn saddle, if you've lost control from there - you sure as hell ain't goanna find it on the ground!
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Agreed! I was always taught that the most dangerous place to be around a panicking horse is on the ground! It's interesting to read everyone's responses though, my 4yo originally napped due to being hacked in a broken saddle in his last home so obviouly a pain response. He's now a-okay on the pain front after working with vet and physio but has learnt that the best way to get out of work is to plant and when you push him he'll buck spin and kick (luckily he hasn't learnt how to rear).

Hacking in company is the order of the day for us as well as long reining out and about. I agree that one on one sessions with your mare are necessary, I'd also wonder if hacking in company past that particular spot might be a good complementary confidence booster for her? Start by going behind, then progress to side by side with her on the on the outside, then side by side with her on the inside, and then eventually work up to leading the other horse past at increasing distances?

Best of luck!
 
tankgirl1 said:
No shame in getting off and leading her past something she deems as scary. Do you take her out in hand ever?
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No but I think I will tack up and ride her to the point that she starts getting worried, get off and lead her, give her a treat so she doesn't associate it as a bad place anymore and get back on again. I hope that will work.
 
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