Lame Horse - Shoeing Question

MrsMozart said:
We'd like to understand the shoeing :) The farrier wasn't his usual forthcoming self.
Click to expand...

It doesn't look bad to me, but if the horse was lamed by it then the balance changes have upset his feet badly by the sound of it. He does, however have very worrying event lines which are so big that the farrier has rasped them flat only an inch or less down from the coronet band.

I'm interested to know about the nailheads being so proud. None of mine are shod so I can't compare, but I don't remember them being like that.
Click to expand...

That is normal, especially for roadwork. My farrier would normally use over-sized nails to give grip on the road, and also because they hold very tight for a long time, because the head wears down to fit the hole in the shoe exactly, almost like they are rivetted on. The way they make the feet rock on a flat surface might have upset him though.
 
MrsMozart said:
He's never had laminitis, but better to be safe than sorry in that respect. He's not showing any lami signs, other than a tiny rock back, which on inspection looks more like he's just trying to get weight off that near-fore..
Click to expand...

Can't comment on the shoeing job as not a farrier - other than it looks a fair job with the hoof as it is. The instant lameness must have been a nail bind.

The hooves are unhealthy.

He IS showing signs of lami in those hooves - just chronic rather than acute.

Ripples in the wall, flat soles, shelly, weedy looking wall and the obesity and 'need for shoes' all shout Insulin Resistance at me.

The heels are under run - that's not the farrier's fault but is a long term shoeing fault. You can see in the caudal shot that the frogs (impressive though they are) are not touching the ground.

When they frogs lack ground pressure - the heels starts to shift forwards in order to help the frog find the ground. Over time this leads the heel to run under the horse. You can now see it's so bad the horse has a triangular hoof :(.

You can also see stress in the wall where it's fed up of being the only participator in loading. The wall wasn't meant to work alone.

If it were my horse - I would get it tested for metabolic problems, consider Xrays of fronts if money allowed, get it on a mineral supplement, restrict it's grass, feed soaked hay, get some boots and pads on all four hooves and work the bugger till it was a decent weight :o.
 
Thank you CPT :). Maybe in trying to stop the tripping the farrier has inadvertantly changed the balance too much, which may have caused the lameness.

Thank you re. the nails! It was bugging the heck out of me. I don't think he usually has them that proud though (I'm sure I would have noticed on the odd times I've picked out his hooves). Maybe they're another contributory factor.

Thank you O :). This farrier has dealt with the horse for, if memory serves me right, the last year. Before that the horse had another highly recommended farrier for a good number of years (only changed because the farrier was a bobber to get hold of).

Neither farrier has commented on chronic lami :eek:. They've just said that he has 'poor hooves', or words to that effect. My friend will get boots and try the barefoot root - the only issue being that he will be lame for x amount of time and she is trying to get the weight off him. Not a good combination! I'll give her a hand where I can. He was being worked about five times a week, but he really is a bobber to get the weight off.

He's been on soaked hay and very limited turnout for months now. Muzzles don't work as he gets them all off, even with a headcollar over the top (I've suggested superglue :eek:). He's on shavings so there's no bed to eat. He's overweight, but there's no crest or apple bum, 'just' a tummy. He'll happily hack out for a couple of hours and he's the only other horse that can and does keep up with my DWB (who strides out for England!). My friend will keep at him though.

His owner has just transitioned a TB ex-racer to being shoeless and now uses boots for him, so she's well read up on the diet front :). He'll get what he needs on that front. The vet is due out soon for one of the others I believe, so will ask for x-rays and the metabolic check.

I'll try and get the video of him walking sometime this week.

Thank you all for all contributions :)
 
Thought I'd let you know how my friend got on with her lad.

Had another vet out - equine vet from a local large practice for a work-up and then again for x-rays. Also had the farrier out again.

The results are:

Lateral - long
Medial - fine
Toes - long (could only see this on the x-rays)
Heels - long (could only see this on the x-rays)

Lateral balance slightly out on both front hooves. Due to the way the horses's hooves grow.

No laminitis. No sign of any in the past either. My friend was stressing mightly in case it had been there and had somehow been missed.

Lines are 'fine' and not 'horrendous', and are due to the normal changes in the land, which is why my horses have them in roughly the same places.

Soles are very thick.

Heels are fine.

Vet didn't have a problem with the delay in the shoeing (with regards to this horse).

Um. Trying to think what else he said... No doubt I'll keep remembering bits!

Weightwise he's doing very well. The strict regime, whilst it did not fill the horse with joy, has had the desired effect and he has lost weight :D. Vet's therefore happy that there isn't an insulin reistance issue, which is another weight off my friend's mind :D

The x-rays showed that the horse actually has very small 'feet'! The farrier was biting his lip taking them back. He didn't do it all in one go as the horse would probably have fallen over :rolleyes:, but it's getting there. Diddy feet indeed for a big, strapping lad :eek::cool::D

The horse is showing signs of being more comfortable and not tripping, which is no doubt down to the fact that he needed far more off the toe than anyone had realised!

I'm going to have my horses' hooves x-rayed. They aren't shod, but now I know what a difference it can make, I'm keen to see if there are any changes to be made to how they're trimmed :cool:
 
Last edited:
I agree that the shoe is doing nothing to support the heel. It is the first thing that i noticed. The heels are very under run which compounds the problem, though this in itself is unlikely to have cause the lameness. It is more likely to have a gradual effect than an acute effect. I suspect that the farrier has pricked the foot and this is causing the immediate lameness. I would not be at all happy with the shoeing if he were mine. It is a load of bull to use the excuse that the horse went 8 weeks between shoeings as this would not cause the lameness. Can your friend change farriers? Either that, or return him to barefoot and buy him a set of boots.
 
Wagtail said:
I agree that the shoe is doing nothing to support the heel. It is the first thing that i noticed. The heels are very under run which compounds the problem, though this in itself is unlikely to have cause the lameness. It is more likely to have a gradual effect than an acute effect. I suspect that the farrier has pricked the foot and this is causing the immediate lameness. I would not be at all happy with the shoeing if he were mine. It is a load of bull to use the excuse that the horse went 8 weeks between shoeings as this would not cause the lameness. Can your friend change farriers? Either that, or return him to barefoot and buy him a set of boots.
Click to expand...


Thank you m'duck :) There's an update just above your post. Vet has x-rayed and investigated and farrier has re-set shoes (or might have been new shoes on, sorry(!), can't remember that bit).
 
MrsMozart said:
Had another vet out - equine vet from a local large practice for a work-up and then again for x-rays. Also had the farrier out again.

The results are:
No laminitis. No sign of any in the past either. My friend was stressing mightly in case it had been there and had somehow been missed.

Lines are 'fine' and not 'horrendous', and are due to the normal changes in the land, which is why my horses have them in roughly the same places.

Weightwise he's doing very well. The strict regime, whilst it did not fill the horse with joy, has had the desired effect and he has lost weight . Vet's therefore happy that there isn't an insulin reistance issue,
Click to expand...

I do not agree with the vet, if the photos are a true representation. The event lines are more severe than any that I get on any of my horse's feet, with the exception of the one which got maximum doses of three different antibiotics simultaneously for a week, which disrupted his gut flora. Lines like that are in themselves symptomatic of mild laminitis.

In addition, the event lines clearly show that the horse is growing foot faster at the toe, which is also symptomatic of early laminitis, although later on they can grow faster at the heel instead.

My personal opinion is that this horse has an unhappy hind gut, if the photos are to be trusted.

I would love to know how the vet diagnoses that just because the horse loses weight on a calorie restricted diet it does not have Insulin Resistance? My friend's mare, massively IR - scores in the 600s instead of under 100, also loses weight rapidly if she is not allowed to eat too much grass.

I'm glad that he is happy with his rebalanced feet though, and hope he continues to progress during the winter, but I'd be watching him like a hawk on frosty days and next spring.
 
Thank you :)

The lines are the same as my horses have. Out on the same grazing.

All I can say is the equine vet assessed the horse. X-rayed the front hooves. Stated categorically that there is no laminitis now nor ever has been.

Toes and heels were long.

I didn't get the full conversation re Insulin Resistence, so cannot comment further on that point.

She'll be keeping an eye on him as she always does :)
 
MrsMozart said:
Thank you :)

The lines are the same as my horses have. Out on the same grazing.
Click to expand...


Then your horse has the same issues with the grass.


All I can say is the equine vet assessed the horse. X-rayed the front hooves. Stated categorically that there is no laminitis now nor ever has been.
Click to expand...


She would be far from the only vet that does not recognise low grade laminitic changes which are sub-clinical. Xrays will not show up laminitis, only bone orientation changes resulting from it. The fact that the horse has not got rotation does not mean it did not and never has had inflammation of the laminae.
 
So how does one see that there is/has been laminitis?

The farrier showed me that Little Lad had had it in the past and even I could see it, but two good farriers have been looking after this horse for years and neither have seen any laminitis in his hooves.

I'm not arguing the point, I'm trying to understand how you see something from pictures that farriers and vets don't.

Re the ridges. My horses are on different feed regimes to this horse. The 'only' common factors are the hay and the grass, but mine are on it 247, whilst this horse has restricted grazing. One of mine has his hay soaked, like this horse, the other two have a mix of hay and haylage (this horse doesn't get haylage).

If you can tell me the technical stuff, I'll put it to the vet (one of my horses is still under him SI we're in touch :)).
 
Last edited:
MrsMozart said:
So how does one see that there is/has been laminitis?

The farrier showed me that Little Lad had had it in the past and even I could see it, but two good farriers have been looking after this horse for years and neither have seen any laminitis in his hooves.

I'm not arguing the point, I'm trying to understand how you see something from pictures that farriers and vets don't.

If you can tell me the technical stuff, I'll put it to the vet (one of my horses is still under him SI we're in touch :)).
Click to expand...

The difference in the growth at the toe can be seen from the dip in the growth rings at the toe. Something has to be causing additional growth at the toe and additional growth anywhere (hair, bone, skin) is usually associated with heat and additional blood. If there is heat and additional blood to the laminae causing that faster growth at the toe, then that would, I think by definition, be inflammation. Laminitis means only that - inflammation of the laminae. It usually happens at the toe in mild cases, sometimes with some laminae death but often not noticeably killing any laminae.

The rings and the shape of the rings are, for me, a sign that this horse has or has had low grade laminitis. But I wouldn't expect a vet who has already told you otherwise to agree with me! Many of them do not accept that the condition exists unless the horse is lame.

For me, rings by definition mean that the horse with the rings is at best having peaks and troughs of something nutritionally. It's my experience that most often that coincides with wet, warmth and sunshine fluctuations for grass fed horses. It's also my experience that feet with rings will more often be the ones which show footiness on stones and require a return to shoes for a barefoot horse along with a comment like the one in your first post "He has shoes as he's just one of those that doesn't do well without.".

Those just don't look like healthy feet to me, but I am glad that rebalancing them has made him comfortable.
 
Last edited:
This is interesting, thank you. I shall print it off and go through it with the vets. I see no reason for either of them will disagree if they can see your reasoning. They're both pretty sound people. Will discuss with the farrier as well :)

My mare is always footy Spring and Autumn (unshod), but this year has been consistently footy, hence getting some boots for her now she sound (unrelated lameness). The other two have the same ridges, both unshod, both sound in so far as their hooves are concerned - the cob has a sacro iliac problem - and not showing any signs of footiness.

It really is a minefield!
 
MrsMozart said:
This is interesting, thank you. I shall print it off and go through it with the vets. I see no reason for either of them will disagree if they can see your reasoning. They're both pretty sound people. Will discuss with the farrier as well :)

My mare is always footy Spring and Autumn (unshod), but this year has been consistently footy, hence getting some boots for her now she sound (unrelated lameness). The other two have the same ridges, both unshod, both sound in so far as their hooves are concerned - the cob has a sacro iliac problem - and not showing any signs of footiness.

It really is a minefield!
Click to expand...

It certainly is :) !

One of the biggest problems is that two horses with identical build, feet, work, feeding can react completely differently. One can be rock crunching and the other hopping.

But footie in spring and autumn, which are also the two peaks for acute laminitic attacks (coinciding with maximum sugar in the grass) is an almost certain case of a horse which is struggling to digest grass sugars. The proof is easy, remove the horse from grass for 2 days and it will normally stop being footie.

One other thing that can be going on with some horses is that they have early Cushings with no other symptoms, when I understand that the daylight changes around the equinoxes can upset their hormones and cause it, but of course that's much rarer.

Because of the warmth and wet, this summer has been a nightmare of footie barefooters. The sole gets a bit inflamed from the grass digestion and the wet makes it soft and bingo, horse that can't stand on stones.

Of course it is not as simple for people as "take it off the grass", that's much easier said than done! Boots are a good option these days.



ps when you talk to the Vet you may find that they say that laminitics grow faster at the heel not the toe. This is true in chronic cases after an acute attack, where the toe is so painful that the horse walks on its heels avoiding the toe pressure, and that causes additional growth at the heel. However, my experience of owning two and seeing others is that sub-clinical (not outright lame) laminitics (and in the early acute phase) grow faster at the toe, I believe as a result of localised inflammation. You can see this effect in an acute laminitic because if you do get laminae death, it is, in my experience, normally at the centre front, and the abscess that bursts out comes out of the coronet dead centre of the foot. It is then possible to put disinfectant in the hole at the top and see it run out of the bottom, where the entire strip of laminae at the front of the foot have died.
 
Last edited:
Just because a horse goes lame immediately after shoeing it doesn't mean the farrier is at fault. Twice my mare went lame after shoeing and it was laminitis both times. She was obviously on the cusp of an attack and being shod just started it off. My farrier did a good job making her comfortable in plastic shoes and she is now sound and back in work. I notice you say your horse is a bit overweight. So was my mare and my vet advised me to keep her really slim to stop further attacks. It might also be worth doing a blood test for Cushings Disease or Equine Matabolic Syndrome as the thinking now is that most laminitis cases have an underlying metabolic cause.

Laminitis isn't always text book either. My mare got it in one front foot only, had no strong digital pulse, and although lame did not have the laminitic stance. It was only as time went on that it became obvious it was laminitis.
 
The Fuzzy Furry said:
Is vet convinced it is in the foot then?
I only ask, as that is what my vet also thought with BF last week (in the foot or coronary band area)
She did a nerve block... pooh, horse still lame...
did a 2nd higher nerve block... nope, still lame...
vet head scratching now so did final nerve block higher & bingo - horse sound.
All pointing to suspensory damage.......... :(

Thing is, this is the off fore on BF which is pin-toed (same as your friends horse) and the horse had suddenly just started to turn the toe in much more at the same time as going lame on a circle.

Just a thought?

I'm not going to comment on the shoeing as I got a bit of abuse last time I did that :o
Click to expand...

This happened to me. Ended up at the AHT and turned out to be growing pains! Damn horses
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top