Lame in both forelegs.

J

Janette

Well-Known Member
Joined
26 January 2002
Messages
2,294
Location
West Yorks
Visit site
My 15 year old girly has been intermittently lame. She went lame on hard surfaces then she steadily became sounder. Then suddenly became lame on hard surfaces again. This was imediately after having her feet trimmed.
It seems that the trim is part of it. From the photographs, Star has been changing how she uses her feet over the past 6 months - much more toe wear.
She is 2/5ths lame on one foreleg and 3/5ths on the other after a flexion test.
The vet suspects arthritis, and she is being admitted for a day next week, to have a full lameness work up.

Anyway, that's the background.
Her feet have always been a bit upright, but her heels are getting longer.

Yard Owner gave me a lot of a lecture tonight about the length of her heels and that's why she's lame - The foot trimmer should be 'brutal with the knife' and cut them right back......

Now I'm not an expert - that's why I employ a registered foot trimmer.

Surely - cutting her heels down severely will cause damage to the tendons. I always thought these things should be done over a series of trims.

Can the length of her heels have contributed to the possiblity of arthritis?

(The foot trimmer has requested copies of the x-rays so that she can see the balance of the foot.)
Will her foot becoming more uprigh have contributed to the possible diagnosis of arthritis?
 
sorry you are having problems....i suggest you speak to your vet and farrier. my mare was similar in that she wasnt taking her normal length stride when the ground was hard and was landing toe first(they should land heel first)and was slightly lame. i had nerve blocks and x rays done and the diagnosis was soft tissue damage in the foot, i chose not to have an mri scan as she is 20 and not insured this would have shown exactly where the problem was but i decided that i did not want to risk having injections into the area and decided to stop riding her and she would be a field ornament until she was not enjoying life..HOWEVER.....when the ground was softer and she was whizzing round the field like a nutter i started riding her again and am still rding...if she becomes uncomfortable i will stop but at the moment she seems to be enjoying herself...i keep her on 1/2 a danilon daily and put it up to 1 if the ground gets hard and she seems fine...hope yours turns out as well as mine....
 
I'd get the X Rays for your trimmer asap. Also have a look at her diet especially carb and sugar intake. Grass is a big possibility for causing a problem especially as the weather is colder. Check for heat in her hooves and a digital pulse. If it's strong and bounding or front hooves hot (hotter than backs especially) I'd consider getting her off grass (as much as is possible) and on soaked hay and stop any compound feeds. This is not knowing your routine of course.
Any evidence of thrush... blackness around frog or chewed looking frogs and or bulbs? Treat if any of these signs are present. Don't rely just on smell.

If there is any inflammation or thrush a 'normal' trim can cause soreness. This is an indicator for your trimmer, have you spoken to them? If not, do give trimmer a ring.

For me heels growing fast is a bit of a warning sign with one of my ponies that diet isn't right.
 
She WAS on Alfa A, 1level Stubbs scoop per meal, 400g of Top Spec per day and 200g of Linseed meal per day.

I've cut the Alfa down to a scant handful.
No thrush, no bounding pulse. no grass (no turnout atm)
The hay is soaked.
 
My friends horse is exactly the same. After having a full lameness investigation (nerve blocks) it showed that it was in her feet. The x-rays showed slight navicular but nothing to cause concern or lameness (apparently) she was then advisted to get a specialist farrier out to have a look at her feet and to try and sort them out... if this fails she will have to get bone scans which her insureance is refusing to pay out for... joys of horses huh?!
 
Janette said:
She WAS on Alfa A, 1level Stubbs scoop per meal, 400g of Top Spec per day and 200g of Linseed meal per day.

I've cut the Alfa down to a scant handful.
No thrush, no bounding pulse. no grass (no turnout atm)
The hay is soaked.
Click to expand...

Drop the TopSpec as soon as you can - in my experience very few sensitive horses cope with it.

Sounds like laminitis to me - tripping on the edge and the smallest thing pushes her over- I'd get the xrays, resist shoeing options - they really won;t help - and maybe get a second opinion from a different trimmer.

As for your yard manager - ignore it and don;t give to the pressure - foot trimmers should never be "brutal with a knife" as it serves no good. You have to look at the whole hoof - heels on their own are not goign to tell you a whole picture - lower heels engaging the frog are the ideal but if the horse is not coping with a simple trim now, major changes to the foot won't make her any happier.

Suggest you leave the feet well alone for 2 trim cycles - see if there is an improvement - then decide. If she's lame after trimming then trimming is an issue.

If you can, walk out on the road and see if she can self trim a little - that will tell you loads more.

Get the diet sorted first - get some minerals in there too (Equimins advance meta balance or Pro-Feet) - and restrict grass as you are doing.
 
I would follow your vet's advice, and get a decent farrier on board - before any more damage is done.

Good luck, hope she comes right for you.
 
Quite a lot of micronised linseed, is she a big mare.
You look to be short of minerals.
And walking on tarmac 20 mins per day to self trim.
I think you should ignore the advice of YO at the moment, most have no concept of barefoot horses, if my experience has anything to go by , sticking one front shoe on, so pony is uni-laterally lame straight away, keeping horses on deep litter [squelch squelch] and so on.
Look on Rockley and Cavallo site [trimming section], also research a bit more, so you can form your own [educated] opinion.
 
Last edited:
Without good quality photographs advice can at best be very general.

I too though would suspect at least a degree of laminitis from what OP has posted so far.

Aggressive trimming of heels is rarely if ever a good idea. Laminitics can get very tall heels which can contribute to lameness/discomfort. But adjusting these is a highly skilled job and not for someone who thinks it is acceptable to be 'brutal with a knife'.

There are instances where for particular reasons, a horse may need to have heels which appear high to human eyes. I've worked on a few and my previous horse was badly lamed by my 'barefoot specialist farrier' when he tried to mess with what she needed. This is one of the reasons I got trained myself.
 
LucyPriory said:
Aggressive trimming of heels is rarely if ever a good idea. Laminitics can get very tall heels which can contribute to lameness/discomfort. But adjusting these is a highly skilled job and not for someone who thinks it is acceptable to be 'brutal with a knife'.
Click to expand...
I agree and tbh if a professional does use a knife (as opposed to rasp or nippers) on the heels themselves (not bars) I'd be asking exactly what they are doing.

I personally would also stop the alfalfa a altogether and consider a test for Cushings from what you have written op.

Educating yourself as has been suggested is important.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
JMHO, did I read somewhere on Pete Rameys articles that if the heels are high, it tips the CB onto it's tip and puts pressure on the sole? Perhaps rather than lami perhaps it's just a big imbalance problem?

And also, I looked at the Equimins Advance products before I chose Pro Feet and whilst I am a big fan of Equimins, the addition of iron was a no no for my boy, but maybe this won't be a problem for others.
Just my thoughts but I'm not an expert either.
 
Erin said:
Muff747 - the advance complete meta balance has no iron :)
Click to expand...

Hi Erin, I've searched a couple of times for Meta balance but nothing comes up, do you mean the Advance Concentrate Complete balancer, as in this?

http://www.equimins-online.com/all-products/2-equimins-advance-concentrate-powder.html

Here's the breakdown
Equimins Advance Complete Analysis
Analysis Quantity
Oil 7.7%
Protein 14.4%
Fibre 3.8%
Ash 20.9%
Moisture 10.4%
Vitamin A 625,000 iu/kg
Vitamin D3 125,000 iu/kg
Vitamin E 17000 iu/kg
Vitamin B1 1000 mg/kg
Vitamin B2 1000 mg/kg
Vitamin B6 800 mg/kg
Vitamin B12 3.75 mg/kg
Biotin 175 mg/kg
Pantothenic Acid 1300 mg/kg
Vitamin C 1500 mg/kg
Choline 15,000 mg/kg
Nicotinic acid 2100 mg/kg
Zinc Methionate 15000 mg/kg
Calcium 4.5%
Phosphorus 3.465%
Sodium 5%
Potassium 6220mg/kg
Magnesium 4000 mg/kg
Folic Acid 500 mg/kg
Vitamin K 1225 mg/kg
Zinc 2750 mg/kg
Lysine 80,000 mg/kg
Iron 1000 mg/kg
Copper 4,500 mg/kg
Cobalt 125 mg/kg
Iodine 85 mg/kg
Selenium 30 mg/kg
Manganese 5000 mg/kg
Methionine 15,000 mg/kg
Inulin, Fructo - Oligosacharide 40,000 mg/kg

If not can you add a link to it for me?
 
There is no link, you can only get the meta balance over the phone

Here's the spec:


Product Information.
Advance Concentrate
Meta Balance powder & pellets.


In formulating this product we have included the most advanced range of minerals bound to organic yeast to make them very much more digestible than ordinary rock based minerals. They are at the forefront of modern nutrition, and we earnestly recommend this product to you.

Advance Meta Balance Special Concentrate is a truly superb combination of important vitamins, minerals and trace elements. Combined with this are very high levels of important probiotics, a pre-biotic to feed them, and a special strain of saccharomyces cerivisae for efficient fibre digestion. Feeding this concentrated feed balancer will make a significant difference to the top line, muscle and general condition of your horse, without making it fat. It is designed to be a complete feed balancer to hay and Haylage.

Feeding Directions: When feeding for the first time, introduce slowly
over a period of 10 -15 days. Ponies: 30-40 grams per day.
Horses: 50 - 60 grams per day, Larger horses: 80 – 90 grams per day
Foals from two weeks onwards: 10 grams per day.
INGREDIENTS: Ground micronized linseed, Dicalcium Phosphate Limestone Flour, Vitamins, Minerals, Trace elements, Organically bound minerals, Saccharomyces cerivisae, probiotics and prebiotics
Analysis:
Oil 7.7% Protein 14.4% Fibre 3.8% Ash 20.9%
Vitamin A 625,000 iu/kg Vitamin D3 125,000 iu/kg
Vitamin E 17000 iu/kg Vitamin B1 1000 mg/kg Vitamin B2 1000 mg/kg
Vitamin B6 800 mg/kg Vitamin B12 3.25 mg/kg Biotin 175 mg/kg
Pantothenic Acid 1300 mg/kg Choline 15,000 mg/kg
Nicotinic acid 2100 mg/kg Zinc Methionate 15000 mg/kg Calcium 4.5%
Phosphorus 3.465% Sodium 5% Magnesium 42.5 g/kg
Folic Acid 500 mg/kg Vitamin K 1225 mg/kg Zinc 13280 mg/kg
Lysine 166 g/kg Copper 3325 mg/kg
Cobalt 125 mg/kg Iodine 85 mg/kg Selenium 30 mg/kg
Manganese 5000 mg/kg Methionine 15,000 mg/kg
Prebiotics 10,000 mg/kg

Organic Minerals bound to a yeast cream: Magnesium 5000 mg/kg
Zinc 750 mg/ kg , Copper 500 mg/kg , Chromium 5000 mg/kg
Manganese 1000 mg/kg, Cobalt 1250 mg/kg, Selenium 15 mg/kg
Probiotics: Lactobacillus Acidophilus & Bifidobacterium 10 billion cfu/g
Sacccharomycyces Cerivisae 20 billion cfu/g
 
The vet didn't think it was lami, her feet are cool, with no pulse. Now that I'm moving on a bit from seeing her shuffling up the yard after the flexion tests, I too think it is an imbalance problem.

The x-rays should help sort this problem out, if that is what it is.

Thankyou for your replies.
 
Good luck with this. All I would add is that bi-lateral lameness has to be man-made, either through incorrect diet or footcare, so there is an answer there somewhere. Using your logic, if a person was bilaterally lame it would be pretty darn unusual eh?
 
Janette said:
Yard Owner gave me a lot of a lecture tonight about the length of her heels and that's why she's lame - The foot trimmer should be 'brutal with the knife' and cut them right back......

Now I'm not an expert - that's why I employ a registered foot trimmer.

Surely - cutting her heels down severely will cause damage to the tendons. I always thought these things should be done over a series of trims.

Can the length of her heels have contributed to the possiblity of arthritis?

(The foot trimmer has requested copies of the x-rays so that she can see the balance of the foot.)
Will her foot becoming more uprigh have contributed to the possible diagnosis of arthritis?
Click to expand...

Sorry to hear about Star

I'll admit to no knowledge myself, however I can tell you what happened to Tilly this year. I was concerned that the heel on her back foot was too long making her foot upright. She was being trimmed by a qualified person but they had no concerns.

I took it further and we ended up with the remedial farrier who works with our vet cutting her heel back drastically and shoeing her again. The vet has said to leave it a few more shoeings and if it still appears that she is favouring the toe (which is what they think happened) they will investigate further.

Although she is miles better they suspect that it was a symptom of some arthritis developing elsewhere. So they think the imbalance is caused by the arthritis, not causing it, it that helps at all.

They were no concerns about the tendon issue as she was not in work at the time.
 
Andalucian said:
Good luck with this. All I would add is that bi-lateral lameness has to be man-made, either through incorrect diet or footcare, so there is an answer there somewhere. Using your logic, if a person was bilaterally lame it would be pretty darn unusual eh?
Click to expand...

Not unusual and quite normal with DSLD/ESPA
http://www.dsldequine.info/
Signs very similar and causes as lami, i.e. too much sugar in diet. Can appear acutely or chronic, mild or severe and in spring when lami cases are appearing also.
This is much more common than is recognised here and affects many different breeds.
Mystery lameness, especially bi-lateral are suspect D/E, signs are many and can be vague in early stages.
 
Andalucian said:
But what causes these conditions...??? Is it found in feral horses???? I still think its man made due to environment, work, footcare.....
Click to expand...

Yes it is found in feral horses, mustangs that have been rehomed from the US programme of reducing wild herds. It has come through blood lines and is hereditary. It was found to affect Paso Finos mostly at first but now is in most breeds including TB's. There is a link to the Yahoo group where they have information about the bloodlines that are affected and about how the condition presents. There's info on diet and hoof balance etc.
I worked out that my gelding is probably affected by reading the databases where owners of horses diagnosed have listed all the signs and symptoms.
Since I have learned about the disease, I see horses with dropped fetlocks from time to time but this sign is easy for the vets to diagnose. It's when there are more vague signs that they are lost for a reason for the mystery lameness.
 
muff747 said:
Not unusual and quite normal with DSLD/ESPA
http://www.dsldequine.info/
Signs very similar and causes as lami, i.e. too much sugar in diet. Can appear acutely or chronic, mild or severe and in spring when lami cases are appearing also.
This is much more common than is recognised here and affects many different breeds.
Mystery lameness, especially bi-lateral are suspect D/E, signs are many and can be vague in early stages.
Click to expand...

Andalucian said:
But what causes these conditions...??? Is it found in feral horses???? I still think its man made due to environment, work, footcare.....
Click to expand...



Anyone else beginning to wonder just how many horses are being shot because they have too much sugar in their food, either from molassed mixes or from dairy grass, or both?
 
muff747 said:
JMHO, did I read somewhere on Pete Rameys articles that if the heels are high, it tips the CB onto it's tip and puts pressure on the sole? Perhaps rather than lami perhaps it's just a big imbalance problem?
Click to expand...

I had one of these. One of the two horses I originally took barefoot was unable to walk on the limestone tracks around here with shoes on. I was going to have to put pads on if he stayed in shoes, so I took them off instead.

My farrier explained to me repeatedly, when I questionned why he was shoeing him to narrow his heels, that he was creating more support for the back of his foot. It was a mistake, of course, the horse had beautiful naturally wide-heeled feet when I bought him as an unbroken 3 year old.

In a very short time barefoot he grew a thick piece of sole callous, perfectly circular, right in front of the tip of his frog. It was a bandaid for the tip of his pedal bone. In the next few weeks, his heels dropped remarkably in height, and after a couple of months that piece of sole, still a perfect circle, fell off.

From then on he was sound on any surface including all the tracks that he could not previously walk up wearing shoes.
 
cptrayes said:
Anyone else beginning to wonder just how many horses are being shot because they have too much sugar in their food, either from molassed mixes or from dairy grass, or both?
Click to expand...

I'm horrified now at the thought of my boy in un limited knee deep lush grass, it made him very poorly, not laminitic but looked very much like it.
Some equines, in fact IMO all equines can do better without any sugar in their diet, even hard working athletic horses.
It's like giving our children sweets for their tea every day.
 
muff747 said:
I'm horrified now at the thought of my boy in un limited knee deep lush grass, it made him very poorly, not laminitic but looked very much like it.
Some equines, in fact IMO all equines can do better without any sugar in their diet, even hard working athletic horses.
It's like giving our children sweets for their tea every day.
Click to expand...

muf I'm not sure just how widely understood it is yet that sugar-caused laminitis in the feet is only a symptom of a whole-body disease originating in the gut. I learnt it well and truly when I took a horse off grass completely because of his soft feet. He had a severe case of sweet itch, which disappeared completely although he was kept in a high midge area. He stopped chewing wood manically. He stopped bolting his food. He was no longer over-reactive to a string of chemicals like benzyl benzoate. He didn't tie up when given a chemical wormer as he had before. Odd panicky behaviour disappeared. And he looked so happy!

Oh, and his feet went rock-crunching and he can now hunt with no shoes on.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top