Lameness in Dressage Tests

[SaddlePsych'D]

Wondering if anyone has experience of being pulled up/pulling someone up during a dressage test for lameness, or observed this happening?

I have thoughts from my dressage scribing experience which have been bobbing around for ages but no-one in person to chat it through with.

My understanding is the BD rules allow for judge to Eliminate based on lameness, and that BE rules provide for judge to consult with the steward and onsite vet.

 

[blitznbobs]

Its in practice really hard to do... Unless they are hopping lame. I see a lot of 'unlevel' horses in dressage tests and they are rarely stopped.

 

[shortstuff99]

We stopped a couple at the recent BRC Champs, one as it went down the centre line! We then get the onsite vet to check them out but they are eliminated

 

[Floofball]

I have been writing when a judge stopped a test. Judge said something along the lines of ‘really sorry to have to stop you but your horse looks really unlevel and not very comfortable on the turn across the diagonal’. The rider was very gracious about it although visibly a bit mortified with the elimination - not something any would like happen to them. Respect to the judge though

 

[rhino]

Easier BE as have a vet on site. We have referred numerous horses for vet checks, either before their test if noticed in the warm up, or we’ll call the vets over to dressage if it is raised by a judge.

Judges are not vets so have to be very careful. IME the marks and comments are significantly poorer in the movements the unevenness can be seen, but of course some look fine in walk & canter so need to be scored accordingly.

For BD my experience is that judges will have a quiet word with the competitor immediately after their test, especially if they are entered for a subsequent test. Responses range from ‘I didn’t know/notice’ to ‘I thought it didn’t feel quite right’ to outright excuses. Unfortunately it feels like fewer and fewer riders can feel when their horses are not level. We had 3 significantly unsound horses in a recent BD championship class. As a national level steward, any concerns need to be raised with the judge asap.

 

[gunnergundog]

Its in practice really hard to do... Unless they are hopping lame. I see a lot of 'unlevel' horses in dressage tests and they are rarely stopped.

Tell me! This was back in the early 1990s when I reached the dizzy heights of a list 5 judge. At an unaffiliated championship show I had a young teenager (c13 /14/15 year old) come in on a big moving warmblood. Kid looked scared stiff - about to die - horse looked about ready to explode or leg it.....and that was just on the trot round before entering the arena. At the end of the test I (stupidly) got out of the car to talk to the girl after the final halt....she had tears running down her face. The MOTHER FROM HELL came storming across the arena demanding to know what the problem was. Whilst I had (to my mind) been having a good conversation with the girl who was telling me how much she loved this horse and had only had her two weeks and wanted to do well but was scared of her, the mother from hell took the stance that it was a five figure horse and had been vetted by Peter Scott-Dunn only a fortnight ago with no issues so why the hell was I talking about irregular steps today and bridle lameness??

Three or four weeks on I judged this self same horse again with a pro event rider on board. Couldn't fault it and marked it accordingly; think it was placed second or third in a strong competition. The MOTHER FROM HELL then bad mouthed me everywhere she could for marking up the horse with a 'name' on top and marking it down with her daughter on top. Too many such experiences (and others) made me sick of judging, which I had only entered into when I was short of horse power myself, so I went and bought a new horse!

 

[ihatework]

It’s really difficult to do, unless they are hopping. Subtle unevenness is often just reflected in the marks/comments. Sometimes just poor riding can make a horse appear lame.

I’ve done a bit of judging in the past and was never in a situation it was bad enough to stop the test. I had plenty where I would comment with things like loosing rhythm or some unlevel steps, where it wasn’t clear cut.

I had a handful of times where I had a quiet word at end of test and it was 50/50 if the rider was accepting or not of the observation. One of these I referred onto the vet at a BE event before they could jump. I got a gobful from the rider but saw that they had w/d from the jumping phase.

 

[dixie]

I was eliminated at a BE in dressage about 20yrs ago. He felt fine by the judge says he looked unlevel, so that was that. He did have an overreach, so could possibly have been that. I don’t remember consulting a vet there but it was a long time ago.

I also lay 2nd after dressage in a very large unaffiliated 1DE. The horse was definitely lame in the corners and I kept glancing over expecting to be buzzed and thought maybe I was imagining it. I withdrew though as was unhappy with how he felt. On reflection I should’ve pulled out mid

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

I have been writing when a judge stopped a test. Judge said something along the lines of ‘really sorry to have to stop you but your horse looks really unlevel and not very comfortable on the turn across the diagonal’. The rider was very gracious about it although visibly a bit mortified with the elimination - not something any would like happen to them. Respect to the judge though

Very tactfully put by the judge by the sounds of it.

 

[Birker2020]

Wondering if anyone has experience of being pulled up/pulling someone up during a dressage test for lameness, or observed this happening?

I have thoughts from my dressage scribing experience which have been bobbing around for ages but no-one in person to chat it through with.

My understanding is the BD rules allow for judge to Eliminate based on lameness, and that BE rules provide for judge to consult with the steward and onsite vet.

Yes I used to compete unaffiliated dressage mainly at Novice but also did a bit at Elementary on my Bailey.

At the local riding club they had a banner on the fence surrounding the arena and during my first test she was very spooky as the banner was flapping around in the wind. A lot of other horses had reacted to it too. After the test I walked her out past the banner to 'show it to her' and she spun very sharply when it moved, she felt immediately lame but it wore off quickly.

During warming up for my next test she felt a bit off but I asked my partner to watch me trot her and he said she was okay, so did a friend that I bumped into there. So I thought I was overthinking it so I took her in the arena for her next test, we'd gone up the centre line and done a circle when the judge blew the horn and came out and explained that my horse appeared lame. By this time I was convinced she wasn't right so thanked him for his time and jumped off.

Turned out she'd aggravated an old injury by spinning as sharply as she had. It must have been on the way out and that spin set it off again. It would have happened sooner or later. I don't mind banners on the side of arenas but why they aren't secured is anyone's guess!

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

It’s really difficult to do, unless they are hopping. Subtle unevenness is often just reflected in the marks/comments. Sometimes just poor riding can make a horse appear lame.

I’ve done a bit of judging in the past and was never in a situation it was bad enough to stop the test. I had plenty where I would comment with things like loosing rhythm or some unlevel steps, where it wasn’t clear cut.

I had a handful of times where I had a quiet word at end of test and it was 50/50 if the rider was accepting or not of the observation. One of these I referred onto the vet at a BE event before they could jump. I got a gobful from the rider but saw that they had w/d from the jumping phase.

I would have thought the BE vet backup makes it easier (I'm not aware of whether BD have to have onsite vets?) as if it really is subtle then the person can continue but the unevenness still comes through in the marks.

I don't know if judges usually have radios in car for BE but there doesn't seem to be a way to even just flag up for the SJ warm up stewards to keep an eye if it's not certain. Or the XC warm up on safety grounds as well as welfare.

A particular experience has been sticking with me because the judge did agree that the horse was lame (and on which leg). They stated they couldn't do anything unless the horse was not weight bearing on it, which seems like a high bar to me.

 

[ihatework]

I would have thought the BE vet backup makes it easier (I'm not aware of whether BD have to have onsite vets?) as if it really is subtle then the person can continue but the unevenness still comes through in the marks.

I don't know if judges usually have radios in car for BE but there doesn't seem to be a way to even just flag up for the SJ warm up stewards to keep an eye if it's not certain. Or the XC warm up on safety grounds as well as welfare.

A particular experience has been sticking with me because the judge did agree that the horse was lame (and on which leg). They stated they couldn't do anything unless the horse was not weight bearing on it, which seems like a high bar to me.

I think non weight bearing is a bit ridiculous- but a consistent clear head bob I think would have been my bar. But then in those circumstances most people know their horse is lame and wouldn’t be competing. What you more often get is a couple of steps on a turn or the like. Or a very subtle 1/10th.

Yes I think BE is easier as there is always someone to refer it on to. Whilst judge doesn’t have a radio, it’s easy to get a message back to the TD when score sheets are collected.

 

[Tiddlypom]

IME of BE dressage scribing dressage judges will flag up any concerns that they may have about a competitor to the dressage steward, who will then pass it on the SJ steward, who will then look at the horse in the SJ warm up. A vet would then be called in if there were doubts about soundness.

The completed dressage sheets are regularly collected from the judges car by a runner, and IME the message gets passed back to the dressage steward by the sheets runner, so it’s quite a convoluted route!

‘Losing rhythm’ is dressage judge speak for ‘lame’.

 

[gunnergundog]

I think in days of yore when I was judging you just had to have the conviction to call it out if you saw an overt lameness. Nowadays with every competitor having someone filming at every marker (slight exaggeration!) I must admit that I would be more reticent than maybe I had been in the past if I were still judging.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

I think non weight bearing is a bit ridiculous- but a consistent clear head bob I think would have been my bar. But then in those circumstances most people know their horse is lame and wouldn’t be competing. What you more often get is a couple of steps on a turn or the like. Or a very subtle 1/10th.

Yes I think BE is easier as there is always someone to refer it on to. Whilst judge doesn’t have a radio, it’s easy to get a message back to the TD when score sheets are collected.

There was another that was less clear cut. I still think the horse really looked like it was struggling and it was unpleasant to watch, but can understand why something like that would not be pulled up. I didn't think the rationale of it not being lame because it would have a head bob in time with one front leg in trot made sense, what if both front legs/feet hurt? Obviously I did not ask that.

The one bothering me was clearly off before it entered the arena (four beat/disunited canter) and it was evident throughout the test, though I can't remember how it showed in walk and trot. It was marked down.

I guess I feel disappointed that someone who knows better than me and actually has influence opted not to do anything about it. It was an uncomfortable experience. I had higher hopes/expectations for affiliated competitions which was part of my decision not to go back to the unaff. events I had been scribing for. I could understand additional hesitation on the judges' part if not confident that the venue would support and without the backing of BD process.

 

[SEL]

I think there's usually something on the sheet if the judge is concerned. I got "overall picture ruined by inconsistent head carriage" last Feb. He'd injured his leg in Jan, had all clear and slow return to work but found the warm up rather too exciting and I think niggled it. I was steering round the test trying to keep his focus and I think the judge wasn't sure if they were seeing unsettled pony or unsound. Nor was I really.

head bopping lame is easy it's the "is it, isn't it" that's hard to call mid test

 

[kathantoinette]

I was writing at Regionals earlier this year and someone got ‘rung out’ for the horse being lame. They weren’t happy about it but I don’t know if they put in a formal complaint.
If the lead judge doesn’t ring a horse out, the test can often be ‘killed’ with very low marks and comments relating to unevenness etc. from those judges who notice an issue.

 

[TheHairyOne]

I've written for a few BE events at the lower levels and the judge advised the guidance was unless it looks really lame and uncomfortable let it continue, flag it before the jumping. You have people, especially at low level BE, who's horses arent used to schooling on grass, who arent studded, who arent experienced and in some cases who are on older horses who may be 'functionally sound' (though I hate that phrase).

I once did a Team Quest test on a lame horse. I thought he wasnt quite right in the warm up, but only on the turn one way and no one else could see what i thought i felt. Went into the test and I was sure I felt it on the turn off the C line, expecting to be buzzed. Didnt happen. Horse was quite happy to keep going and was his usual of an abscess brewing in the end, but only got the 'slightly uneven steps in some places' comment. Which was true, but he was pretty sore doing the tight turn on hard ground in the carpark afterwards.

It can be quite hard to actually call out a lame horse if the rider isnt doing the horse any favours too, or the horse is having a meltdown. I watched a friends test once (low 50's mark) and i know that horse was sound and was fabulous in the warm up. Nearly froze and shuffled through the entire test, looked awful, was perfectly fine when back outside with friends. He had been getting high 60's outside in the summer, did not enjoy that indoor school at all.

Can be very hard to be a judge thats for sure and I am not suprised they err on the side of caution before ringing the bell.

 

[nutjob]

My horse was pulled up in a test when my partner was riding. The judge was very polite and we were both mortified and retired without questioning it, certainly wouldn't dream of making a complaint. Neither of us thought there was a problem and this was his second test of the day, the earlier one getting a good score (different judge) with some 8's for his trot. He looked sound at home including small circles on the lunge, however, he'd had a previous ligament injury and we took him to the vet for a work up and had the ligaments on both front legs scanned. The vet couldn't find anything wrong and we ended up spending about £300 so I hope it doesn't happen again!

 

[MrsMyope]

Not dressage but many years ago I was asked to leave an unaffiliated show jumping warm up. The rather vociferous lady assured me and all the other competitors that my horse was lame on all 4 legs. He was a pacing harness racer. I stayed and won the class.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

My friend used to be a judge for BD and I have seen her stop a few people during a test for lameness, they were not happy but I would trust her completely and she stood by it.

I've helped at small showing shows and seen some shockers and been shouted at and called names but I don't care I would always call it.

 

[scats]

I’ve written for judges who have got out the car at the end and spoken to the competitor because they felt the horse wasn’t quite right.

 

[Polos Mum]

Good on judges who have the courage to be the voices for these horses.

I see them in the warm up but never seen anyone stopped mid test.

Some writing experience where 'uneven steps' is a reasonably used phrase - without xray vision I can see it is pretty grey between a few uneven steps and lame enough to eliminate.

At lower levels I think not only would judges worry about verbal abuse on the day - but if they had a reputation for stopping tests - the local riding clubs just wouldn't book them.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

Well I'm still disappointed about some of the scenarios I have seen in dressage, but they were put in a different perspective today when I saw someone out hacking the lamest horse I have ever seen. It wasn't quite on three legs but not far off! I didn't say anything as I was driving, but it was a really very sorry sight and I couldn't quite believe what I was seeing.

I wanted to believe perhaps a stone in the foot or something, but the hindquarters looked very poor and almost twisted, and the rider so un-fussed I thought probably it was not anything that had just happened. Most people, I would hope, would hop straight off if their horse started moving like that on a ride out.

 

[nikkimariet]

I’ve seen plenty of horses dinged out for lameness, all the way to int GP. I am always surprised the rider has no idea? It’s so obvious to watch.