Lameness locator update

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Ceriann

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So for anyone interested vet came out to my mare with this gadget today. In summary, had her two months, shod by my farrier three weeks ago and has presented lame twice on near fore. Usual vet came out (farrier had been) last week, identified no issue in front but thought a niggle with offside hind and wanted mare in for full work up. Found another practice that does pretty much everything at your yard and they also use a lameness locator. Gadget that involves sensors being placed on poll, pelvis and right leg and it measures the impact and push up of each leg. Very sensitive for hinds - claims to identify up to 3mm variation in the hinds so can pinpoint lameness most can't see.

Vet arrived and did usual thorough check. Interestingly he had report from other vet and they had apparently noted lameness in each leg other than the one I was concerned about - definitely not mentioned during visit, in fact she commented how well she presented in front! Im definitely going to question that as just doesn't feel right.

We trotted up on a hard surface etc. To this point vet hadnt raised any issue and she seemed to present well. Gadget went on and we trotted up and down twice and got result. To the eye she again presented well but locator identified lameness in offside fore - v small niggle in near hind but discrepancy too minor to note. So we trotted up and down again twice - this time on the final turn, she started to look visibly lame. Gadget measured clear offside fore lameness. We decided to block foot and trot up again. On first trot up obvious we hadn't allowed enough time and she still looked lame but gadget noted a reduction in lameness so we waited to allow the block to work. Second time she was sound and in fact gadget recorded that she was presenting better than first trot up (where to the eye she hadn't appeared lame). So we have an identified issue with right foot - all of this in an hour and a half and I'm convinced a 'typical' home exam wouldn't have got it (as it took a number of trot ups for her to show lameness). Vet is coming out next week to action next steps - X-rays and block of coffin joint. I'm still not convinced this isn't related to shoeing (given she's presented lame twice in near fore) and vet knows that but we'll go from here.
 
Thanks for this. I have found a vet in my area that offers the lameness locator and it's interesting that you say it did pick up lameness that wasn't obvious to the naked eye. That's what I need for a horse that is 'off' without being definitely lame on a specific leg.

Hope you get it sorted - keep us posted.
 
The vet from the other practice who came out didn't pick it up and it definitely helped with checking the success of the block (where we didn't see any improvement on first trot up post block, the gadget did so we waited and went again). It is highly accurate with hinds so you are very reliant on the vet to translate a minor discrepancy into a 'nothingt to see' on the basis of all the other checks. I would recommend it purely because I know now what next - something I've rarely been able to say with some experience of lameness investigations. It's also v easy to use in that it's simple and not scary for the horse.

Best of luck with yours.
 
equi said:
What exactly is this gadget?
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Sensors on the horse measure vertical acceleration and work with developed algorithms to determine asymmetries in head and pelvic position between left and right halves of stride.

After the trot ups you get a report that shows you lameness (if identified) based on impact or push up acceleration and the extent of the issue.
 
Ceriann said:
Sensors on the horse measure vertical acceleration and work with developed algorithms to determine asymmetries in head and pelvic position between left and right halves of stride.

After the trot ups you get a report that shows you lameness (if identified) based on impact or push up acceleration and the extent of the issue.
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oooh. Sounds very high tech and cool! I know my horses lameness (mechanical) but i can see how effective it would be to those who can't decide. How much does that cost out of interest? It is a experimental type thing or is it in full flow as a diagnostic aid and just not got around yet?
 
Ah been waiting for this, interesting.

It's been around a while and I think spreading equi they did quite a lot of work on where to put the sensors for most info, definitely good for subtle lameness, but also for horses that look lame on all four legs (so not very subtle). It was approx £100ish for my vets to bring it with them iirc.
https://equinosis.com/

thoughts on a plan OP? Interesting that once blocked the other (previously problematic) fore didn't show up anything. xray?
 
How interesting! Thanks for the update, I won't hesitate to ask them to use it on mine if I ever have any doubts.
 
I've seen something which sounds similar at the RVC - interesting to hear about improvements in technology which I'm sure will massively improve diagnostics.
 
equi said:
oooh. Sounds very high tech and cool! I know my horses lameness (mechanical) but i can see how effective it would be to those who can't decide. How much does that cost out of interest? It is a experimental type thing or is it in full flow as a diagnostic aid and just not got around yet?
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Been around for a while in US but improved lots in recent years - about 20 practices use it in the Uk. I can see a real place for it in pre-purchase vettings too. Not costly, especially when compared to a full work up etc - it will add about £100 to my bill.
 
ah see my old vet is a bit of a pre purchase vetting expert. He is really not sure it is a good idea for that, I can't remember if that was because of the potential insurance nightmare or that without any observed pathology by an owner so many have horses have some assymetries that probably shouldn't be used for buy/do not buy advice :)
 
ester said:
Ah been waiting for this, interesting.

It's been around a while and I think spreading equi they did quite a lot of work on where to put the sensors for most info, definitely good for subtle lameness, but also for horses that look lame on all four legs (so not very subtle). It was approx £100ish for my vets to bring it with them iirc.
https://equinosis.com/

thoughts on a plan OP? Interesting that once blocked the other (previously problematic) fore didn't show up anything. xray?
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Back out next week to do X-Ray's and block the coffin joint in the offside fore to (hopefully) eliminate that as a potential issue (lameness locator will be back for this). She's been shod differently by my farrier - at my request as vet who did pre-purchase exam said toes on fronts too long and at risk of developing issues with underrun heels. Given near fore lameness in recent weeks is this all a foot balance issue, does she need different trimming/shoes?

I might be mad but I do feel more positive just knowing we've pinpointed an issue.
 
ester said:
ah see my old vet is a bit of a pre purchase vetting expert. He is really not sure it is a good idea for that, I can't remember if that was because of the potential insurance nightmare or that without any observed pathology by an owner so many have horses have some assymetries that probably shouldn't be used for buy/do not buy advice :)
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Definitely get the insurance angle but for me vet thinks it might be helpful as it eliminates lameness for 3 legs (when the other vet who came out apparently raised issues in three - when only one flagged to me). It depends on the horse and what you want or expect them to do but if you're spending a decent amount on the horse I can see why you might add it to the mix alongside X-Ray's etc. Vet said negligible assymetries should be capable of being addressed for insurance purposes.
 
Just checking that the vet has put hoof testers on all round given that it presented after shoeing?
 
SusieT said:
Just checking that the vet has put hoof testers on all round given that it presented after shoeing?
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Farrier did when he came back when she presented with near fore lameness a few days after shoeing and she did show discomfort. Shoe off, good look, no nail bind etc and shoe put back on with a query abscess. First vet also did when they came out last week - no reaction. Vet today didn't but shoes will come off at next visit and we can start again.
 
Ceriann said:
The vet from the other practice who came out didn't pick it up and it definitely helped with checking the success of the block (where we didn't see any improvement on first trot up post block, the gadget did so we waited and went again). It is highly accurate with hinds so you are very reliant on the vet to translate a minor discrepancy into a 'nothingt to see' on the basis of all the other checks. I would recommend it purely because I know now what next - something I've rarely been able to say with some experience of lameness investigations. It's also v easy to use in that it's simple and not scary for the horse.

Best of luck with yours.
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http://www.centaurbiomechanics.co.uk/gait-analysis/

This isnt the one I saw but is similar. There are a few about.

The one I know about the creators are confident that within 5 to 10yrs that it will be common place for people to have them for their own leisure horses. The technology is already there and can be done with an Iphone. Its the analysis software that is still being developed for the lay person
 
Well I was talking the 'lameness locator' as the title of this thread ;) and cundlegreen said 'if she uses one of these', not any of these.

I know there are varying types, guess the AHT need any of them as they have the kit to do full biomechanics if they want to for research or cases. The research with the equinosis one did include some ortho experts, they did say they were better at spotting what the kit did than the other vets included in the study.
 
ester said:
Well I was talking the 'lameness locator' as the title of this thread ;) and cundlegreen said 'if she uses one of these', not any of these.

I know there are varying types, guess the AHT need any of them as they have the kit to do full biomechanics if they want to for research or cases. The research with the equinosis one did include some ortho experts, they did say they were better at spotting what the kit did than the other vets included in the study.
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I wish I'd paid more attention to the details of which university they were affiliated to and who was working with them. I want to say Cambridge but I could be wrong. It was definitely one that offers vet training and does a lot of research. I had a quick look earlier and cant find them, I'll look properly tomorrow as theres was slightly different to the one the OP talks about, and I think will be the first one available to the general public as it seems thats their eventual aim
 
having had one nerve blocked and worked up when actually it was a very simple problem I would recommend before you stick needles in the joints you ask the vet to use the good old fashioned hoof tester.... I'd be pretty peeved they hadn't tested for hoof pain already tbh given the nerve block blocking the foot
 
SusieT said:
having had one nerve blocked and worked up when actually it was a very simple problem I would recommend before you stick needles in the joints you ask the vet to use the good old fashioned hoof tester.... I'd be pretty peeved they hadn't tested for hoof pain already tbh given the nerve block blocking the foot
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Nerve blocks don't go into the joints.

The poster said ' Vet arrived and did usual thorough check.' which probably included hoof testers, I would have assumed?
 
rara007 said:
I think her views are quite clear :p
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1090023314002159?via=ihub
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Well they were quite clear in 2015 when the article was published. I can't read it so I don't know what she says but I'm guessing from your response that she disapproves? I expect the equipment has improved since then and I would expect her to modify her views if so. But she is famed for her skill in detecting lameness herself, so let's hope she isn't like the surgeons who were so proud of operating quickly that they refused to use general anaesthetic that would give them more time.

I'm glad my vet, this one, has one. It will make it less likely that we will ever have to end up at Sue Dyson's door.
 
ycbm said:
Nerve blocks don't go into the joints.

The poster said ' Vet arrived and did usual thorough check.' which probably included hoof testers, I would have assumed?
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Mare seen by farrier and two vets since lameness first presented and hoof testers have been used (more than once).

I'm not suggesting the locator is finding something that wouldn't eventually be found by a work up BUT it identified a lameness (in offside fore) before it became apparent to the eye and only became apparent to the eye because we continued to do hard surface trot ups. I'm not sure we would have done that had the locator not already identified the issue.

Also, the locator flagged a minor discrepancy in the near mind BUT vet reading it and with work up done said this was a irrelevance - the locator is particularly accurate with hinds so does need a vet present to interpret and use the data together with the results of the physical exam. He was very thorough.
 
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