Lameness - video - clean hock xrays?

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Neemo

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Hi,

The past few months my horse has been off work after getting a saddle made then a few physio appointments. They gave me a program to help improve his back end as he's not using himself properly, and had a sore back.
It all started early this year, with totally new behaviour from the previous year with being slightly naughty, running off with me if I landed on his back, i was riding with no stirrups, he suddenly trotted and I bounced and he just started to run as if he was panicked, totally unlike him? sudden stops over simple jumps etc when previously very honest and getting very wound up at shows...

These videos were from last month and during our rehab stuff (that's why the lunging gear is on) but recently he's seemed even less likely to use his back end, trashing poles in pole work and occasionally appearing stiff in his back end when walking in his field.

I decided to get him a work up to be safe,his hip appears slightly wonky and he wasn't looking any better. As id taken his shoes off he was to sore for the vet to really tell, but as he was slighty positive on flexion, he xrayed his hocks, which were pretty much perfect xrays apparently. (Thankfully, as my other mare has this)

So we have 11 days of bute, and vet either says rest for a few more months then try riding, or week of bute and try riding again when he's settled back with shoes, then come back which he thinks will happen.

Does anyone have any clue what might be going on, as after saddles and physio and vet we still don't know. though vet thinks he's definitely not right but we need his shoes back on for further work. The videoes below are July when he had shoes. :)

Thanks!

https://youtu.be/U5QTyskbohY

https://youtu.be/6dma-Ou4MMk

https://youtu.be/js-4PNJjPzg

https://youtu.be/6RJvkrsWc8s
 
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Looks like sacroiliac, possible cracked pelvis but could also be PSD and if sacroiliac or PSD, that could have been caused by kissing spines. If you are insured I'd put him straight in for a scintigraph (whole body scan often called a bone scan). If you aren't insured I would ultrasound for PSD, and if negative for that try steroids/anaesthetic into the sacroiliac. And if either of those are positive I'd also xray the back for kissing spines, more to rule out out than in the expectation of him having any, but because they so often go hand in hand.

Is the bute working? It's often ineffective for back pain. How old is he?
 
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Honestly? It's very hard to tell from the videos - especially with all the lunging stuff on - it could be anything. If I were you, I'd get decent vet out to do a full lameness work-up, including nerve blocks, starting from the feet and working up, and see where that leads you.

Good luck - sometimes we wish they could talk so we could fix them, right?

Hope you get to the bottom of this.

P
 
ycbm said:
Looks like sacroiliac, possible cracked pelvis but could also be PSD and if sacroiliac or PSD, that could have been caused by kissing spines. If you are insured I'd put him straight in for a scintigraph (whole body scan often called a bone scan). If you aren't insured I would ultrasound for PSD, and if negative for that try steroids/anaesthetic into the sacroiliac. And if either of those are positive I'd also xray the back for kissing spines, more to rule out out than in the expectation of him having any, but because they so often go hand in hand.

Is the bute working? It's often ineffective for back pain. How old is he?
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Hi, thank you, he's 9 and I've had him a year. I'm insured ...but with E and L, which was a stupid move and I've heard bad things! He's only been on bute since yesterday and 2 today, but it's the first time he's done his stretches over his back without lifting a leg to avoid it? That could be a massive coincidence though. He's on the bute for his feet as they were sore from no shoes, waiting for farrier to put them back on and then I'll maybe lunge him again while on bute?
 
PolarSkye said:
Honestly? It's very hard to tell from the videos - especially with all the lunging stuff on - it could be anything. If I were you, I'd get decent vet out to do a full lameness work-up, including nerve blocks, starting from the feet and working up, and see where that leads you.

Good luck - sometimes we wish they could talk so we could fix them, right?

Hope you get to the bottom of this.

P
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Thank you. we've had a work up from the best horse vets near us, but he was to footsore for them to know, decided to xray hocks , but clear. so he's on bute until shoes are back on then going back for a 2nd work up.

Also does anyone know how it works with e and l insurance/any insurance? The vets was yesterday, do I know have a certain time to work out what is it, if they'll let me claim? Thanks :)
 
I agree with ycbm. Looks like the pain is coming from his pelvic area. Lameness is worst in left hind. I have to say watching those vids made me wince.
 
Neemo said:
Thank you. we've had a work up from the best horse vets near us, but he was to footsore for them to know, decided to xray hocks , but clear. so he's on bute until shoes are back on then going back for a 2nd work up.

Also does anyone know how it works with e and l insurance/any insurance? The vets was yesterday, do I know have a certain time to work out what is it, if they'll let me claim? Thanks :)
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E&L are rubbish - they've declined every claim I've made.

Did the vet nerve block to determine hocks were the issue?

P
 
PolarSkye said:
E&L are rubbish - they've declined every claim I've made.

Did the vet nerve block to determine hocks were the issue?

P
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I know I'm gutted now as I'd been meaning to swap from the for ages but it's to late now! :(
He nerve blocked front left foot, which then caused the other front leg to go very lame, so he was convinced that he was to footsore to be able to make a clear assessment. But he said from what I'd described, with staring off stiff, back pain etc and the fact we'd done a 1.30 hour trip he could x Ray the hocks. So really just need the shoes back on and to go back. But if e and l aren't going to pay out I'm not sure how much I can realistily do if it's serious/costly.
 
E and L will pay out if they have no grounds not to, but you have to be persistent, and if needs be get threatening. Go to the ombudsman etc. They always delay responding to buy them time so just keep on phoning. Make a nuisance of yourself. The will pay out if they are liable so long as you have not broken the contract in any way (because they will dig for excuses not to pay, e.g. if you had any vet treatment and not informed them, but even then, you can usually get them to pay up if you are persistent enough).
 
Neemo said:
I know I'm gutted now as I'd been meaning to swap from the for ages but it's to late now! :(
He nerve blocked front left foot, which then caused the other front leg to go very lame, so he was convinced that he was to footsore to be able to make a clear assessment. But he said from what I'd described, with staring off stiff, back pain etc and the fact we'd done a 1.30 hour trip he could x Ray the hocks. So really just need the shoes back on and to go back. But if e and l aren't going to pay out I'm not sure how much I can realistily do if it's serious/costly.
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So horse could have been bilaterally lame in front? It could have been something like PSD? It could have been higher up - say in the shoulder? See what I mean?

Honestly, asking for a diagnosis on a website/forum is a recipe for disaster. Personally, I think you should have another lameness work-up now that the shoes are back on . . . E&L do pay out, but you have to be very, very persistent (and get your vet on-side). I really don't think (from what you've said) that your vet has been able to see a true picture/make an accurate diagnosis - but I wasn't at the vet visits, don't see your horse day-to-day, am not a vet (see what I mean?).

I'm sorry to be so vague, but without appropriate diagnostics you aren't going to get to the bottom of what's wrong with your horse - and no'one on here (even if they are a certified/qualified diagnostician/bodyworker/farrier, etc.) will be able to either.

Honestly, I wish you the best of luck getting to the bottom of this . . . I've been where you are and it's so worrrying. Fingers and toes firmly crossed that your vet uncovers something relatively simple to fix.

P
 
He's going to need a proper work up away at a decent referral centre. He could have 2 or 3 things going on, that may or may not be related. I'd certainly be thinking along the lines of 2-3k in diagnostics, I suspect we are talking scintigraphy and various xrays and ultrasound scans plus blocking.
So I'd start the claim now and be prepared to fight with E&L!!
 
He looks exactly like my horse and I have spent 18mths peeling away the layers trying to get to the bottom of it, I was convinced it was pelvis too and my vet told me the problem was I had taken him barefoot and I should just put shoes back on - well I took the shoes off because the farrier had destroyed his feet so there was no way shoes were going on. I was told he was lame in front due to foot soreness & I said he was sore on front as it was doing all the work because the back end couldn't move correctly.

So after several months of arguing he went to the clinic, vet then thought PSD and not hopeful of his future, I couldn't understand why as he had always been worked so carefully/correctly and without stress, I asked for ultrasound as xrays not conclusive and it came back within normal limits so did nerve blocks and came 90% sound so then thought hocks were the problem. xrays not conclusive and I got so fed up that I just told them I would pay for a bone scan to put my mind at rest as he had KS op 9yrs ago and I was terrified his back had started to go again.

Bone scan showed whole pelvis clear and his skeleton was an amazing testament to correct work as no wear and tear at all, only hot spots were hocks and fetlocks, vet rules out fetlocks as generally a warm area and pinpointed hocks. He was injected with low level steroids as thought could be the lowest joint and not clear on the x-ray. It cured the increasing mechanical lameness but I haven't quite got back the very forward going, fluid horse that I've owned for the last 11 years.

So I believe he did need the hock injection but I also think it was caused by the unbelievably poor foot balance that put loads of stress on his joints. Check the foot balance first, mine had unlevel heels from side to side and had underrun by about an inch so he couldn't land properly, I then also think the stress and pain has caused possibly some low level ulcers and that also causing stiff movement. You might like to try some milk thistle and brewers yeast and you also might like to get a podiatrist to look at whether his feet are out of kilter.

Sorry very long story but I completely feel your pain - your horses movement is the mirror image of why I was so concerned about my boy - bute didn't work for him at all, global herbs "Restore" saw him really perk up - it's a blood tonic and gave me a clue that despite no outward signs it might be stomach as well as legs! a decent vet investigatation may well be needed but also go back to basics and just check out the bits I have mentioned
 
E&L a nightmare never touch them..

the horse looks in pain and I would not lunge him till you find out as it could be masking the area for us and also making it more painful for the horse the bend in an outline.

I would persist with the vet or get a horse physio out as he may have put his back out/slipped disk or such like so I would say time off any work till yo know what is wrong with this poor chap.
 
Neemo said:
He's on the bute for his feet as they were sore from no shoes, waiting for farrier to put them back on and then I'll maybe lunge him again while on bute?
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As a slight aside, his feet will still be sore regardless of having shoes on or not. Shoes will just, at best, mask the problem - they won't make the problem disappear. You need to address this issue no matter what.
 
I'm afraid from the videos he looks to be in a lot of pain and the bandage round his back end really made me feel sorry for him. I wouldn't lunge him, especially with any gadgets, until there's a diagnosis.
 
I am insured with e and l and claimed twice for the same horse on the same limb they paid for an mri and it was for a lot of money, so I can't really fault them to be honest they were slow paying but they did pay, all insurance companies will try and get out of paying and all of them seem to exclude absolutely everything if they can get away with it, get a claim for fill it in and send it to your vet and get it started you only have 90 days from the onset of the condition to get a claim in, then get a full lameness work up done with nerve blocks if the horse is used to wearing shoes get him shod first, it's no point doing a lameness work up on a barefoot foot sore horse I am surprised your vet even continued knowing he was foot sore, I wouldn't lunge him any more as his sore and it could do further damage to whatever is wrong with him.
 
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