laminitic horse and hay

Ladyinred said:
Thunderbrook? Tell me more please.
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Small family run business. Website http://www.thunderbrook.co.uk/

Phone Tel: +44 (0)7743 841024
01953 488 355

E-mail: thunderbrook@googlemail.com


I know they have had problems with phone lines recently and mobile signal is poor. So keep trying if you don't get a response immediately.

I have no affliations with Thunderbrook, but I have met them personally and inspected the goods! :-)
 
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I wouldn't take everything the laminitis trust say as gospel... I used to. Not now. I have a laminitic. Had it in 06, then 08. He was on resricted grazing and soaked hay. In 09 no restriction, haylage, no lami. So far this year we're ok. He's out 24/7. No feed. No supplement. No shoes. No Lami. Go figure.

And I'm praying too OldLady. Big hugs for the road ahead, it's a case of feeling your way and reading up as many opinions as possible. America is a good place to start...
 
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0ldmare said:
Re the Hi Fi Lite, based on the fact its on the Laminitic trusts website as approved and given that it is the only thing she will eat with her pills in, I'm going to have to carry on feeding 1/2 a scoop twice a day.
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I can't remember whether you have tried her on unmollassed beet yet? Just that it is pretty palatable to most horses, high in calories (which is useful if she is not eating much at the moment), makes a good base for medication and lower starch/sugar than HiFi Lite.
 
i wouldnt worry to much about feeding her dry hay as her lami is being caused by the cushings rather than her diet. once the pergolide kicks in she should be fine with dry hay as the pergolide will control the symptoms of the cushings i.e laminits. but i wuld still keep an eye on her when she is on grass but the ha i wouldnt be to concerned about (before anyone jumps on me my mare has suffered with cushings for years and ive spoke to every vet in my area and feed merchants)
 
Hi TGM, yes I bought her Speedi Beet and she won't even consider eating it, even mixed with her fave Hi Fi. She just looked at me pityingly and averted her head. Wouldn't even stick her nose in to check it out :(

All most odd, she's always loved sugar beet (ok this is un-molassed, but even so I thought I'd see a little enthusiasm).

I think the lami has sent her soft in the head. Why else would a horse carefully pick out the chaff and leave anything remotely resembling grain! :confused:
 
0ldmare said:
Hi TGM, yes I bought her Speedi Beet and she won't even consider eating it, even mixed with her fave Hi Fi. She just looked at me pityingly and averted her head. Wouldn't even stick her nose in to check it out :(

All most odd, she's always loved sugar beet (ok this is un-molassed, but even so I thought I'd see a little enthusiasm).

I think the lami has sent her soft in the head. Why else would a horse carefully pick out the chaff and leave anything remotely resembling grain! :confused:
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Because the hifi lite is coated in molasses
 
What about HiFi Good Doer and blue bag horsehage? My pony isn't laminitic but is a fatty and these are the lowest sugar I've found that I don't have to travel miles for.
 
I feed my horses Happy hoof, I changed from hifi lite as it contains mollasses extract. But I've not seen mollasses on the list of ingredients in Happy hoof to be honest. Unless it is listed by another name.
 
Top Spec Top Chop Lite has no mollasses in it and seems to be liked by both of my ponies, one with Cushings and one laminitis.
I also feed Allen and Page Fast Fibre which is low in sugar and a good hay replacer -very palatable and great for supplying vit/minerals and keeping weight on. Using this, I've increased the amount when my mare goes off her soaked hay.

If she has Cushings, then the condition may not be well controlled by Pergolide and you might need to increase the dose, in consultation with your vet. Have you had her tested for eACTH, insulin and glucose? This should give you some indication of how well controlled her diet/Cushings is and whether she might be able to tolerate dry, unsoaked hay. Sorry there's a lot to think about, but I've had to learn very quickly to keep my little mare alive. Also have you considered that the meds could be putting her off her food? Pergolide can decrease their appetite so the dose might need adjusting. Good luck,

Sue
 
Thanks so much for the suggestions! In all seriousness I think I am going to ring the makers of the different products and ask them for samples. Then line them up and let my choosy mare take her pick! I keep buying different things and then she just goes "Nah, don't like it" in a petulent way, and I end up with another sack of wasted food..

I certainly think the Pergolide depressed her appetite in the first 7 days, but in the last few days she seems keen enough to eat, just not the delicious things I buy her!

I do take the point that Hi Fi lite is lightly molassed but she is being perverse with what she will or won't eat

Her ACTH has been measured (v v high) but nothing else yet as the vet seems to want to get the laminitis controlled before doing the other tests. She does have classic cushings signs tho, eg bug eye swellings above her eyes etc etc. I will be glad to get the rest of the tests done so we can refine the dose she is getting. The vet is coming again on friday so I'll ask her again then
 
Ladyinred said:
OK so this has to be the most expensive way to feed haylage, but look at this analysis. High protein and only a third of the sugar of hay.

http://www.horsehage.co.uk/analysis.html

They even have a high fibre version designed for laminitics.
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I feel I have to point out that this comparison is only dependent on the hay quality,sugar level etc. you are comparing it with.
I haven't had success using these products with a pony in acute laminits she got worse very quickly so I stick with soaked hay. I don't know if preservatives or anything are added but home grown haylage seems much better, she did tolerate that for a short period well.
It's so complicated and individual to each horse. I've eventually gone down the route of simple, basic is best for us.
Also I'm wary of analysis conducted by the producer. I'm so cynical sadly.
 
Just a point to consider is that the ACTH will be high anyway over the Autumn months, so it might be worth waiting a bit for further tests as the result may be different later on.
 
tallyho! said:
Anyway, another alternative is haylage. Believe it or not, haylage has much much less sugar than hay.
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Now I'm totally confused.

I've spent all summer feeding hay to my lami-prone horse as I believed haylage to be too high in sugar. Everyone, including the YO, advised me to avoid haylage. :confused:
 
Martha I'm not sure why but as I said above my pony was worse on haylage from a big commercial supplier and I've read of many who cannot tolerate these commercial haylages.

My understanding is that haylage made 'correctly' in the best conditions is lower in sugar than equivalent hay. However it is higher in overall nutritional value and it seems some horses with laminitis cannot tolerate it.

I like you give hay to my pony with laminitis and as I have to buy in small varying batches I always soak the hay because you just cannot tell if the sugar content is 10% or less by smell and appearance.

I don't know the science of all this but my feeling is to feed haylage with extreme caution to horses with laminitis unless you know the profile of the haylage and that your horse can manage well on it. If you've no choice I would soak the haylage as well in an acute attack unless you have had the haylage tested and sugars are below 10%.

It's all so individual though.
 
martha said:
Now I'm totally confused.

I've spent all summer feeding hay to my lami-prone horse as I believed haylage to be too high in sugar. Everyone, including the YO, advised me to avoid haylage. :confused:
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Isn't it that haylage is supposed to be more acidic though? I thought it was that rather than the sugar that could affect some laminitics.

I think the crux of the matter is that laminitis has so many variables for each individual horse that you've got to find what works for yours. I am thinking about trying haylage this winter alongside soaked hay, but I will be adding yea sacc if I do to try to keep the gut more balanced.
 
I own a couple of horses with Cushing Disease who have had Laminitis.

The most important thing to bear in mind is to keep the weight of your horse down as this will reduce the risk of another incident of Laminitis.

One other important thing is to ensure that your horse is regularly wormed as recent research has shown that horses are lore likely to suffer from Laminitis if they have a worm burden (See the latest issue of Equine Health Magazine). Be vary carefull to worm for encysted emerging small red worm and tape worm as they do not show up in a worm count (only in blooods).

Recent research has also show that soaking some types of hay is almost ineffective in reducing the nutritional content of it.

Mine got a slice of soaked hay every 4 hours (including at night) while they where stabled so as to keep their digestive track going.

I feed mine bran, Hi-Fi Lite, Low-Cal, Linseed, Formula 4 Feet (Developed by a team of vets and scientists including Robert Eustace the specialist Laminitis Vet) and cod liver oil together with their Pergolide Pill (250 microgram per day for each of mine).

While your horse has Laminitis make sure that it is fitted with rubber foot supports and on a very thick bed.
 
You and me both Martha :D ! If what you have been feeding is working for your horse I'd stick with it! I'm just praying my hay tests as v low slimline stuff so I can feed it unsoaked... (the words fat and chance spring nimbly to mind here :D )

One interesting thing I heard (from my niece who is a final year vet student in the USA), is that Vitamin E has been shown in studies to help Laminitics. I'm told that *sometimes* its been seen to reverse the damage.

The one thing I'm really happy about is that today she is a little better. (I hardly dare say it in case I'm tempting fate!)
 
Research and vigilance combined with instant remedial action is the key. I would expect a gradual but steady turnaround as the acuteness of the attack lessens and the chronic phase settles in.

I'm keeping my eye out for the D&H figures... and my fingers crossed for continued improvement.

The difference, I strongly suspect, between you and some friends I know who had their pony PTS is the willingness to ask for and act upon (or at the very least consider) advice from outside. I am still very sad about one pony's fate as I told them to act long before laminitis appeared and although they tried Pergolide, they gave it a few measly days to work its magic and did very little else. My heart breaks for that pony as they never gave him a chance. They blamed Cushing's but it was every bit as much them to blame for how it panned out.
 
Oh poop, double poop, just had the Dobson & Horrell analysis on my new season hay, which is 10% sugar :( :( :(

Predictably my old hay (down to the last 8 bales) is very low so is fine. So I'm OK while that lasts.

Aaagh I just knew this would happen

Back to the drawing board on this one...just wish she would eat it soaked!!!!!! :mad:
 
0ldmare said:
Oh poop, double poop, just had the Dobson & Horrell analysis on my new season hay, which is 10% sugar :( :( :(
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I believe 10% should be ok.That's the max 'safe' NSC content figure that's often quoted. Might be worth introducing it gradually mixed with your old stuff and see how it goes?
Have a look on the safergrass link at articles. Hope others respond to this point but any sign of worsening even slight I'd soak.
 
amandap said:
Also I'm wary of analysis conducted by the producer. I'm so cynical sadly.
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Don't be. The feeds are tested scientifically using the same kind of analytical instrumentation that you would find in a pharmaceutical lab or a university science lab. They us unbiased reference data from all over the UK to compare to and produce the values you see printed on the bags.

The values you see are what is actually in the feed. Doesn't mean it has everything at the right levels for your horse but it does tell you what is in there.
 
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Has anyone else tried feeding straw with any success?

Barley or oat seem to be palatable... all the horses at the farm are now on barley and they all eat it. Must be quite nice...

High fibre, low carb, low sugar - it's perfect!
 
amandap said:
I believe 10% should be ok.That's the max 'safe' NSC content figure that's often quoted. Might be worth introducing it gradually mixed with your old stuff and see how it goes?
Have a look on the safergrass link at articles. Hope others respond to this point but any sign of worsening even slight I'd soak.
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Thanks for that, very interesting. I've just been on the safergrass site and they seem to be saying 10% or below is OK. Its a bit borderline I guess, but perhaps a short soaking would make it palatable enough for her to eat and reduce the sugar level just enough to take it within comfortable levels. I'd better try that sooner rather than later as I'm so low on the old stuff. I'm quite surprised it wasnt higher really as it was June hay, but just goes to show you cant tell by looking!
 
Just soak the hay, she'll get used to it and eat it. If you keep altering what she's eating all the while you just make the horse really choosey. By feeding her anything with less sugar now after what she's used to its bound to be less palatable initially.

If you think about all the sugar laden products you've fed her up to now its a wonder she is still here.

How sure is your vet about the cushings, very often it can be confused with insulin resistance, which heightens suseptability to laminitus.

Just think about diet, exercise and hoof care, in that order.

Good luck.
 
AndySpooner said:
If you think about all the sugar laden products you've fed her up to now its a wonder she is still here.
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Hmm, a little harsh, I'm not sure what gives you that idea - in the beginning she had Hi Fi Lite and Dobson & Horrell Leisure Mix (which I was under the impression, having asked the vet, was OK). Subsequently discovered Leisure Mix is not good and swapped to Safe and Sound which she wont eat. Then, on recommendation tried Speedi Beet which she wont eat. So now she gets Hi Fi Lite which is approved by the Laminitis Trust. And thats all. In addition she gets old August hay which has a tested sugar content of 6. Which is OK unless anyone tells me otherwise.

My one concern is when that old hay finishes and I'm (obviously) taking steps to move her onto some forage that is low in sugar and that she will eat. That was the point of my post

So, yes the Leisure mix was bad, but as soon as I realised I stopped it and she wouldnt eat the darn stuff anyway. Yes she has had an unknown quantity of apples which some idiot fed her, but that wasnt me.

Vet is convinced of cushings.

I'm doing the best I can for my horse and, thank god, she's a little better
 
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