Laminitic showing signs in December?!

[Montyforever]

My mare had acute laminitis a year and a half ago. Since then her turnout has been built up and for the past 2 months shes been out 4 hours + a day with no problems at all even on the frost. So why on earth has she come out of the stable this morning with pulses and instead of the normal prance to the field she was dragging her feet and had a very short stride when I trotted her up (she didn't want to trot either!) she's only getting hay and fast fibre at the mo, nothing in her diet has changed and she gets global herbs laminitis prone too. I'm completely confused as to why she would suddenly have the symptoms she had before the acute bout last time when nothing has changed and shes been on this routine for over a year.

Has anyone had a pony have a bout recently? I'm thinking I might need to have her tested for cushings even though she's only 8 dont think its metabolic as she struggles to keep weight on so fat pads would be a miracle!

Aaaaaaaaaah, bloody ponies

 

[Partoow]

Probably because she has a metabolic disorder and her insulin receptors are not recognising the insulin being produced. You need to get her on bute and a very high quality mgO supplement now, failing that, some Epsom salts and 12 hr hay soak. These conditions can be progressive and even though she is on the same routine you can have a flair up. It's not really anything to do with being 'fat' or spring grass its more that she has a non obese form of diabetes , if she has fat pad on the neck or hindquarters they can produce a cortasteroid that can contra indicate the condition ( horse can still be good body condition wise, ie not over weight and still have these fat pads)

 

[Honey08]

Yes our old pony got it twice in winter, recovering both times. We then sold her onto another home as we wanted her to be worked and kept fit, and my son had outgrown her. The following winter it happened a third time and they tested her, it turned out to be EMS.. I really wished we had tested her.

 

[Wagtail]

Does she have filled in hollows above her eyes? If so, then she almost certainly has cushings or EMS. My mare came down with acute laminitis this time last year when she wasn't even on grass. I would keep her in on a deep shavings bed, bute or danilon and acp or sedalin 3 x a day for the first few days. Feed only soaked hay or marksway hi fibre horsehage (less than 3% sugar). Hope she gets over it quickly. Please keep us informed.

 

[Polos Mum]

The weather has been unusually mild (we are forecast to have 11 degrees tomorrow and 7 degrees over night!) so the grass will be back growing - crazy I know but could she be getting more grass that you expect for December?

 

[Montyforever]

She's out on 5 acres but there's not much grass and there is 5 other big horses out there too so it's not just her. She's been running around with her friends, being a little monster generally and just her usual self until the past couple of days. It's not like her to not care about going back to her stable when she's half way down to the field

I'm not sure about the hollows above her eyes, they don't bulge out but they are not as hollow as they were if that makes sence?

I've attached a picture of above her eye, and of her condition 2-3 months ago. She's not changed much condition wise but she does have a very thick coat so its hard to tell (it's only slightly slightly thicker than usual)

It's hard because I've only known horses who have had cushings for a while so never saw them in the first stages and always get told shes too young so end up thinking I'm over reacting but she's not right she has been drinking slightly more than usual recently too ..

 

[Wagtail]

Yes, her eyes look like the hollows have filled out I'm afraid, just like the two laminitics at my yard. One has cushings and ems, the other tested negative for both but I am sure he has ems (test is very unreliable). She also looks like she has the start of a crest, even though her body score looks ideal.

 

[Archangel]

I shut one of my fields on 5th November as the grass had been absolutely hammered to nothing. I checked it this morning and there is nearly an inch of new growth - all lovely and green.

 

[Montyforever]

What's the next step then wagtail? Getting the vet out to test her?

 

[joeanne]

I'm either getting the wrong end of the stick, or you have failed to understand what frosty grass does to a laminitic.
What on earth are you doing turning her out on frosty grass????
I would say yes, get the vet out, get her tested, and then manage her VERY carefully!

 

[Wagtail]

I doubt it would be cushings at her age, but not impossible as it has been found in horses as young as 7. You could get her tested for it though just in case and also for ems. But for the ems test they have to be starved for 12 hours before the blood sample is taken. Often however, this test can give a false negative. There is a more accurate test, but that involves a 12 hour starve followed by a glucose meal. I refused to have this done on my mare as I feared giving her that much glucose would make her lami worse. Vet thought it was perfectly safe but I didn't want to risk it. I spoke to the head vet who agreed to let me put my mare on metformin without the test being one first. It is a harmless drug and so not a risk. She is already on prascend for the cushings. She has lost more weight and the lami attack went a few days after starting her on the metformin, so it has done the trick for her. Once she is able to be exercised more aerobically, she will be weaned off the tablets.

 

[posie_honey]

it may well not be the case in this situation - but my vets give a talk every autumn/winter about the high risk of Lami over winter... (in fact they see more cases over winter than summer )

the main reason - over feeding and over rugging

they are not talking about stuffing loads of high calorie ffed into a horse and rugging it until it sweats - they are talking about the fact that most horses work load significantly drops over winter and they are often in standing more - but owners feels the need to up the feed becuase "its cold"

then they also rug as "its cold"

so the horse ends up having nothing at all to use its feed for so it just goes on overloading the system with rich feed.

as an example - i have a mare here who has been a chronic laminitic for the 5 years i've known her - every winter she gets it really badly because of 'frosty grass/concussion on hard ground/too rich hay etc etc - always a reason beyond simple mismanagement!

she is usually stabled 24/7 (to prevent eating the frosty grass/walking on the hard ground....) then is rugged up 'becuase she is cold so stiff' then she is fed 'becuase its winter and they need lots of feed' and given treats beucase she looks depressed!

this year she is living with me under my management - she is living out 24/7, has no rug (but has a field shelter if really nasty weather - funnily enough she choses to stay outside most of the time!) and is fed the same as in summer - a pinch of hi-fi mollasses free with lo-cal balancer and a joint suppliment....
she also gets ad lib hay - which her body uses to keep warm - as nature intend forage in winter to be used

funnily enough she is fit as a fiddle, a great weight, not stiff and farrier says her feet at the best hes ever known.

i know she may well still get it as this will be the first summer and winter that i've ever known her to not have lami rumbling in all four feet - but she's been with me - and lami free for 9 months now

 

[Montyforever]

Joanne - it was frosty all day for a couple of days and I had no choice really. She only went out for an hour or so, it was better than her running rings round her stable all day. She came in happy and without pulses on all those days. We haven't has frost in over a week now so it's not a sudden burst of sugar that's caused this. I did all my research into causes of laminitis/warning signs and have managed to keep her laminitis free for 18 months now by seeing the warning signs and getting her off the grass. The signs were just a lot clearer this morning considering she's been on grass at what should be the safest time of the year (temperatures under 8 degrees but not frosty) as I said on my first post she's not rocking back or terrible just a little bit short in her strides and not her usual self.
I would get the vet if I needed to, but they would just reccomend what I've done (have rung them before in a similar situation) which is to get her off the grass for a few days, soaked hay, big bed, keep an eye on pulses and get them out if she starts to look uncomfortable. She had a few episodes like this over spring/summer (being fine within 2 days each time) but I assumed it was just the sugar in the grass and I'd been slightly caught out. But now when it shouldn't really be an issue (unless frosty of course!) it was unexpected.

 

[joeanne]

Joanne - it was frosty all day for a couple of days and I had no choice really. She only went out for an hour or so, it was better than her running rings round her stable all day.

Honestly....if it were me, she would stay in when frosty. Its just really not worth the risk.
Is there not a menage/school you can turn her out into with some soaked hay?
I think we are all being lulled into a false sense of security ATM too.....we have had mega rain, the weather is far too mild, and the grass is STILL flipping growing!
In fact I am seriously thinking about my youngster and how to restrict his intake!
Years ago, by now, there would be very little in the grass, but for some the grass is still quite good.
I hope your lass makes a speedy recovery, but if it were me, the vet would be doing the nessecary tests.

 

[PeterNatt]

Laminitis can be caused by so many different things. For instance in the cas eof my horse it was caused by emerging encysted small red worms (which can not be detected in a worm count only by taking blood).
Other triggers of Laminitis may be an Infection, Stress, Concushion of the feet, Insulin Intolerance, Cushings Disease etc.
Reduce the amount of grazing that your horse has access to. i.e no more tha one acre. You would be suprised how much grass a hungry horse can eat!
If your horse is showing signs of Laminitis then call the vet in, keep your horse on a deep bed and fit rubber frog supports. Only feed your horse one slice of one hour soaked hay ever 4 hours. Do not feed anything else.

 

[Montyforever]

We can't turn out in the school or section off the field. Moved to get her away from the stress but lost the flexibility we had with our own field etc unfortunately I was planning a woodchip pen at my old yard but I can't really put one down unless it's my own field/yard. I'd rather have her off the grass 24/7 if I had the facilities, but for now a big stable (shes only 12hh) and soaked hay in piles and double netted haynets is fine.
I knew she would be difficult to manage long term as she's not able to be ridden so I can only lunge her and walk her out inhand when possible. But I've found a feed that keeps her weight on, a turnout regime that's been working fine until today and it just feels like I've got it wrong again but I've not changed anything?! I check temperatures/risk daily and get a bit ott with it sometimes so for this to pop up out of the blue completely unexpected I'm shocked!

 

[thelwellpony]

Yes, this is almost exactly what happened with my pony last week. She's on box rest (deep bed, soaked hay, etc) and bute and we're waiting for the results of blood tests for EMS and Cushings. Hope your pony is feeling better soon!

 

[Pale Rider]

Access to 5 acres of frosted grass. I think that it's probably laminitis.

 

[Leg_end]

If you haven't already got it, download the laminitis app. It's 69p but its been an insight for me. I'm down south and it hasn't gone below high/ med high risk for over two weeks, even in the mild and rain.

I'd say it was lami TBH.

 

[Montyforever]

I don't see how being out on 5 acres is different from one and a half acres with just one other horse come rain, shine, frost and snow (with no pulses/heat in hooves) though which is how she was last winter only 6 months after the laminitis plus as I understand it frost traps the sugar in the grass. So would be an instant sugar hit, not when we've not had frost in over a week and she was fine yesterday.

Thelwellpony - thanks, glad it's not only my mare but not nice to hear of another case though

I've got that app and it's been showing medium risk for the past few weeks but it was showing low risk through most of the spring/summer when it was constant rain and sunshine so lost a bit of faith in it and don't rely on it for any descions now.

 

[Pale Rider]

It's cumulative.
Large area means she will select the most palatable, ie sweetest.

If its frosty, we keep ours off it.

 

[noblesteed]

It doesn't always come on instantly, from what I understand it takes a few days for the toxins to work their nastiness. Could it be possible that the frosty grass she ate caused a slow build-up of toxins which then over a period of a week have worked their evil on her laminae?

I have a laminitic that I had a minor recurrence with - 3 weeks after moving to a new yard where he had haylage instead of hay. Farrier reckons it took that amount of time for the toxins to build up. He's now on hay and fast fibre and is fine. He's got frog supports too.

He HAS been out on frosted grass but always in his muzzle, even at this time of year.