Laminitis advice please

The history of her problems is so long but in short we bred her ourselves backed her as 4 year old and had her shod, didn't ride her for 6 months (I was pregnant) got back on her and decided to send her away for schooling as a 5 year old, she went down with mild case of laminitis a couple of weeks into her schooling. Came home shoes off. She then started to develope abcesses and I have put a post about this before she has at least 33 abcesses over the years but had been lami free and abcess free for over a year so started walking her in hand and even rode her after 10 years of not getting on her. She had another abcess so back to square one. She then had another abcess a few weeks ago wich she is now over. She is 19 now and this has been goring on for so long that I think I have become quite used to it. My vet and farrier are brilliant and to be honest they both think that she has an inherited problem, her mother had feet problems which only came to light after she was born or obviously we wouldn't have bred. She is a happy girl and I will keep trying my best for her thats why I am interested in the pea gravel, always used woodchip as the vet suggested it years ago so have always had a woodchip area. Sorry for long post.
 
Crugeran Celt said:
The history of her problems is so long but in short we bred her ourselves backed her as 4 year old and had her shod, didn't ride her for 6 months (I was pregnant) got back on her and decided to send her away for schooling as a 5 year old, she went down with mild case of laminitis a couple of weeks into her schooling. Came home shoes off. She then started to develope abcesses and I have put a post about this before she has at least 33 abcesses over the years but had been lami free and abcess free for over a year so started walking her in hand and even rode her after 10 years of not getting on her. She had another abcess so back to square one. She then had another abcess a few weeks ago wich she is now over. She is 19 now and this has been goring on for so long that I think I have become quite used to it. My vet and farrier are brilliant and to be honest they both think that she has an inherited problem, her mother had feet problems which only came to light after she was born or obviously we wouldn't have bred. She is a happy girl and I will keep trying my best for her thats why I am interested in the pea gravel, always used woodchip as the vet suggested it years ago so have always had a woodchip area. Sorry for long post.
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You have done well to manage a difficult horse reading that my view would be if it anti broke don't fit it.
 
Thanks, do try my best for her although she is a money pit! Even bought my cob just to keep her company when we lost our old arab, didn't really want another one but couldn't keep her on her own. She has a lot to answer for but she is a stunning mare such a waste really but there you go. OH keeps saying she will probably live into her 50's and outlive another companion!
 
Abscessing, is part of the lamanitic recovery. When the lamina break down, there is obviously a lot of necrotic tissue within the hoof capsule, to a greater or lesser extent. As the hoof regenerates this has to be expelled from the hoof, hence the abscessing.
You cannot stop pedal bone rotation, or arrest its progress by any form of remedial shoeing or pads. The only thing which will stop generation of the sole by the tip of the pedal bone is a thick sole. Likely to be less robust in shod horses. If one looks at the stance of a lamanitic on pea gravel it is plain to see how the nature of the gravel provides support for the hoof and alleviates pain and discomfort.
It is the reattachment of the lamina between the hoof wall and pedal bone which reverses the rotation, from the top of the hoof capsule down.
 
Pale Rider said:
Abscessing, is part of the lamanitic recovery. When the lamina break down, there is obviously a lot of necrotic tissue within the hoof capsule, to a greater or lesser extent. As the hoof regenerates this has to be expelled from the hoof, hence the abscessing.
You cannot stop pedal bone rotation, or arrest its progress by any form of remedial shoeing or pads. The only thing which will stop generation of the sole by the tip of the pedal bone is a thick sole. Likely to be less robust in shod horses. If one looks at the stance of a lamanitic on pea gravel it is plain to see how the nature of the gravel provides support for the hoof and alleviates pain and discomfort.
It is the reattachment of the lamina between the hoof wall and pedal bone which reverses the rotation, from the top of the hoof capsule down.
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You can arrest pedal bone rotation with good shoeing I have the X-rays and had the horse until she was PTS at 24 to prove it.
But I aggre that a full new 'set'of the bits that grow will be necessary until then you don't how good a recovery you will get I was so lucky with mine great vet who is BF and a amazing farrier who got up from his Sunday lunch drove one hour and as the vet said literally saved her.
 
Pale Rider-I too am interested to know how you got your knowledge-persional experience or professional?
It does contradict quite a lot of the veterinary advice-something which all posted should bear in mind-your vets will have seen a lot of laminitis cases and know a successful way of dealing with them. If you're not happy your horse is getting better, seek a second opinion but be wary of following solely forum advice and not treating your laminitics.
 
we had to get a fair few samples of 'pea' gravel to find one that was more rounded than the rest. It was actually the quantity required for a decent depth on a small area that racked the price up, in comparison to other hardcores (for what we were using it for) or filling a stable with shavings (in this instance).
 
Goldenstar said:
You can arrest pedal bone rotation with good shoeing I have the X-rays and had the horse until she was PTS at 24 to prove it.
But I aggre that a full new 'set'of the bits that grow will be necessary until then you don't how good a recovery you will get I was so lucky with mine great vet who is BF and a amazing farrier who got up from his Sunday lunch drove one hour and as the vet said literally saved her.
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Perhaps I should point out that BF vet is wearing shoes she's my best friend.
 
With regard to arresting pedal bone rotation by shoeing, my own opinion is that even sighting x-ray's as proof is somewhat subjective and would depend on the severity of the attack and the amount of damage to the lamina. I would expect to see partial reversal of the pedal bone within 6 to 9 months of a severe rotation, and full reversal within 18 to 24 months in any event, providing everything else is in place to prevent further attacks or inhibition of recovery.
On a personal note, my opinions regarding laminitis are based on 40 years of horse management, backing and training on a professional level, often in circumstances where calling a vet out is not an option. Nowadays, I'm often asked for my opinion by vets, two had lunch with us yesterday when they came to discuss a couple of their cases. So my opinions are based on experience, and study with large numbers of horses over many years.
Laminitis is not and should not be a disease which horses die from, but if they are not treated appropriately, then it is life threatening and recovery will be prolonged and partial.
People need to make their own minds up and look at the outcomes following conventional treatments which are fairly poor as a rule.
 
nicolenlolly said:
I need some advice please. Just been out on a hack and whilst out noticed my daughters pony looking a little foot sore.

When farrier came last time he said they had grown a little over - I think it was 7 weeks because he had to re-schedule - but he said that they were fine.
At the time I thought they looked a bit splayed out but as I thought he knew best said nothing.

I called my friend who lives at the end of the lane and she came out and is of the opinion he has laminitis :( so what do I do now?

I have googled it and it says box rest but I only have a field...I have sectioned all of them off into a really naff bit of field with hardly any grass, I will call the vet out on Monday to confirm.

I know they need to lose a bit of weight but I don't want to exercise him too hard if he is in pain... Between now and monday I know I can't work a miracle but my poor boy, I feel terrible that I have let this happen although to be honest the grass here isn't great at all. The good paddock is still sectioned off so could it be the haylage they were getting through all over winter?

Thank you so much, homemade brownies all round xx
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Having gone through a year of laminitis recovery, each case is different and needs to be treated differently. Where as you will get lots of advise from this forum of those who have gone through it. IMO Your vet needs to be the one who confirm it is or isn't laminitis .

If you haven't got a stable to put him in have you thought about getting some Heras fencing to make a small coral for him??

http://www.tempfence.co.uk/fencing.htm?gclid=CMSu2s7C_bACFUxlfAod2TbIPw

We have made a round pen out of it , but you can make it as small as a 11ft square or bigger and you can move it around as you need to.

I am lucky I have a stable for my mare which is big 15ft by 15ft.
Personally through observing my mare on a few types of bedding I have found bedmax the one she is most comfortable on.
My mare has come out the other side due to the correct care and advise for her situation.

And Styrofoam pads DID stop her sinking anymore than she did. And they did stop the rotation when she was wearing them. She only wore them for a short time while she was unstable in her feet.

At the end of the day treatment advice for one may or may not work for another. All we can do is give our opinion or what actually we did for our horses in this situation. OP its up to you if you take any or some of the tips given on this thread. It also depends on what stage your horse is at and what his breed and feet are like as to how he will cope with the recovery.
 
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Pale Rider said:
With regard to arresting pedal bone rotation by shoeing, my own opinion is that even sighting x-ray's as proof is somewhat subjective and would depend on the severity of the attack and the amount of damage to the lamina. I would expect to see partial reversal of the pedal bone within 6 to 9 months of a severe rotation, and full reversal within 18 to 24 months in any event, providing everything else is in place to prevent further attacks or inhibition of recovery.
On a personal note, my opinions regarding laminitis are based on 40 years of horse management, backing and training on a professional level, often in circumstances where calling a vet out is not an option. Nowadays, I'm often asked for my opinion by vets, two had lunch with us yesterday when they came to discuss a couple of their cases. So my opinions are based on experience, and study with large numbers of horses over many years.
Laminitis is not and should not be a disease which horses die from, but if they are not treated appropriately, then it is life threatening and recovery will be prolonged and partial.
People need to make their own minds up and look at the outcomes following conventional treatments which are fairly poor as a rule.
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I do understand where pale rider is coming from but I don't altogether agree.
Vets have a big role in managing laminitis and IMO sometimes in a severe case PTS is the best option .
I think we should be very careful of giving any advice that could be in any way interpreted as that you should seek to manage laminitis yourself as the vets cant do anything that works that could end up with an inexperianced ( or experianced )owner in court.
I have been involved in cases where lami cases where successfully prosecuted and I would caution all owners that you should seek advice from a vet when your horse has this condition .
That's not to say that there are various views on how best to proceed and things like the pea gravel beds may be not yet mainstream but are certainly something I would do if facing it again
While I would admit that where you see a horse slightly footy think oops and get it off the grass quickly and onto a apporiate diet you can get away without the vet I still would err on the side of a call out but if the horse is unwilling to move freely or doing that horrible lamintic stance IMO you must get a vet.
I saw a horse die of lamintis when abroad it took days and died I think of blood poisoning in the end it's not a condition to be trifled with and certainly not one to be dealt without specialised advice.
 
Goldenstar said:
I do understand where pale rider is coming from but I don't altogether agree.
Vets have a big role in managing laminitis and IMO sometimes in a severe case PTS is the best option .
I think we should be very careful of giving any advice that could be in any way interpreted as that you should seek to manage laminitis yourself as the vets cant do anything that works that could end up with an inexperianced ( or experianced )owner in court.
I have been involved in cases where lami cases where successfully prosecuted and I would caution all owners that you should seek advice from a vet when your horse has this condition .
That's not to say that there are various views on how best to proceed and things like the pea gravel beds may be not yet mainstream but are certainly something I would do if facing it again
While I would admit that where you see a horse slightly footy think oops and get it off the grass quickly and onto a apporiate diet you can get away without the vet I still would err on the side of a call out but if the horse is unwilling to move freely or doing that horrible lamintic stance IMO you must get a vet.
I saw a horse die of lamintis when abroad it took days and died I think of blood poisoning in the end it's not a condition to be trifled with and certainly not one to be dealt without specialised advice.
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I agree with Goldenstar - particularly having just lost my horse to laminitis. I also believe that laminitis in a pony is very different from laminitis in a horse and the latter is much harder to manage and overcome sadly. I also believe the vet has a big advisory role to play - impartial to the emotionally attached owner to advise on prognosis and pain and progress.
 
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Goldenstar said:
Vets have a big role in managing laminitis and IMO sometimes in a severe case PTS is the best option .
I think we should be very careful of giving any advice that could be in any way interpreted as that you should seek to manage laminitis yourself as the vets cant do anything that works that could end up with an inexperianced ( or experianced )owner in court.
I have been involved in cases where lami cases where successfully prosecuted and I would caution all owners that you should seek advice from a vet when your horse has this condition .
That's not to say that there are various views on how best to proceed and things like the pea gravel beds may be not yet mainstream but are certainly something I would do if facing it again
While I would admit that where you see a horse slightly footy think oops and get it off the grass quickly and onto a apporiate diet you can get away without the vet I still would err on the side of a call out but if the horse is unwilling to move freely or doing that horrible lamintic stance IMO you must get a vet.
I saw a horse die of lamintis when abroad it took days and died I think of blood poisoning in the end it's not a condition to be trifled with and certainly not one to be dealt without specialised advice.
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Very good post ^





At the end of the day treatment advice for one may or may not work for another. All we can do is give our opinion or what actually we did for our horses in this situation. OP its up to you if you take any or some of the tips given on this thread. It also depends on what stage your horse is at and what his breed and feet are like as to how he will cope with the recovery.

When I did my BHS training in the mid 70's we experienced hands on many laminitic most survived only 3 did not , the treatment was done very similar but each horse reacted slightly different to the next. There were no muzzles at time we could only restrict the grazing or box rest sadly two of the non box rest ones did not make it , this was due to them not coping being in all that time.

I would always seek my vet and farriers advice firstly. But I like to hear of what others did in this situation and what worked.

Personally I think remedial shoes can and have helped as have pads. But if you haven't got to the detachment stage then barefoot is the way to go.

In the last month I have done a survey round this area spoken to liveries at yards who went or have a laminitic.
Most of the horses at a certain time in the acute stage did wear frog supports or pads. All these horse pulled through and are back into work4 of which actually had the pedal bone pushing on the sole. I saw the pictures this horse 16.2 TB he was put onto pads for about 4 weeks changing them every 2 days. He has now made a full recovery.

I still stand by what you need is a good vet and farrier as well as a good financial backer and a patient horse to cope with the problem while healing.Also have a good bond with your horse to give him or her the support he or she needs
 
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YasandCrystal said:
I agree with Goldenstar - particularly having just lost my horse to laminitis. I also believe that laminitis in a pony is very different from laminitis in a horse and the latter is much harder to manage and overcome sadly. I also believe the vet has a big advisory role to play - impartial to the emotionally attached owner to advise on prognosis and pain and progress.
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^5 from this gr8 poster;)

I think one important thing I have learn from this site is:

Ask questions - view the answers

seek advice - take it on board.

Run it past your vet or farrier before you take action on hearsay or experience from a forum.

But at the end of the day No one knows what its like to be in the individual situation, where as the vet - farrier owner does. So passing judgement can only be based on what you read , this in turn is often not the whole story as many including myself would never go into full detail on my individual case.
 
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Well I went to see them this morning and they looked chirpy enough, they have got their pony twinkle back in their eye :)

Don't get me wrong I am sure it is just that the bute has kicked in and so eased some of the pain, by the time I loaded them yesterday they looked so sad, head down and node eking very sorry for themselves. Bless them they travelled so well I was do proud of them :)

Anyway the main reason for the box rest is to keep them away from the grass so they have some soaked hay which they seem rather unimpressed with... I took them out the stable just to walk them a dozen paces or so to see if they were worse/better and to my delight are able to bring their front feet in a little closer today, we are no where near fixed but on the right track, before there was maybe 3 feet between the front feet when walking, now only 2. They seem a little stiffer in their back feet now so I will call vet back to update and also see whether this is stiffness due to boxing or due to lami - I don't have the experience to know?!

I am sorry I seemed to dither over what to do, I have a friend who is extremely knowledgable and experienced who told me it was lami, gave me some bute and told me categorically do not call vet it is a waste, do not stable they will seize up and have to be PTS and I didn't want to go against what she had said as she had helped me. My husband is old school, he doesn't see horses as pets, just hunting transport or polo equipment so he is not overly fussed about vets and their fees whereas me...well I love my boys and would give them my last rolo :)

Sometimes it is hard to know what to do for the best so once again thank you all for helping me out in my hour of pony crisis, between them and my 13 week old daughter who is teething, I have had no sleep and look a wreck so here is the next question...which is more of a worry a child or a horse????? Lol
 
Nicolenlolly the hardest part of learning is to work out which experianced friends to listen to I am very glad the boys are feeling better good luck with it and start to think now of how you are going to manage them in the future .
 
Thank you goldenstar, what the vet has advised as far as future is concerned is that I muzzle during the day and then remove in the evening throughout spring/summer and beginning of autumn.

For now I am not allowed a field shelter as land owner says no so I am looking at alternate parcels of land to rent instead as if I were able to maybe put them in a field shelter for a few hours per day that would also be helpful. I like the look of the track grazing and showed hubby who has agreed that bits of it wouldn't be hard to implement right away.

I think this year has been awful weather wise and because I had the baby it hasn't been so easy to get up there and lunge in the rain with a newborn, I had hoped turning them away effectively would have been ok. As soon as they are fit I will start them off just twice a week as the vet said and build up to 4 times a week of lunging for 10 mins on each rein. Hopefully then they will keep the weight off and be happier.
 
The difference between children and horses are horses don't grow up! They remain at the troublsome toddler stage for ever! So glad they are looking a little better today and as you have found there are so many different opinions on the treatment of laminitis and it is changing all the time. In my experience it depends on the horse. Good luck lets hope they are back to their normal selves soon.
 
The problem with vets is the conflicting advice that comes from the type of vet who turns up. Many arrive having been called out in an emergency situation so that the advice that you get depends largely upon the experience, age, or school of thought the vet agrees with.

My own vets are what I like to think of as enlightened, but they themselves complain that the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons, is not up to speed with current advances in the treatment of laminitis in Australia and the U.S. This is a failing which they feel can be detrimental to the health and welfare of horses in their care.

I don't and would not suggest that anyone would not involve their vet in any suspected case of laminitis. I do feel very strongly, however, that as an owner or keeper of horses you have a duty to be aware of the causes of laminitis, symptoms, treatments and subseqent outcomes of proposed treatments.

Many vets will support the wishes of an informed owner with regard to the treatment of laminitis should they not wish to follow the conventional route.

I do feel strongly about conventional treatments for laminitis involving remedial shoeing, pads, high doses of NSAID's and months of box rest which do not often lead to a swift and full recovery. Sometimes horses are still suffering 12 months down the line which is not acceptable in my view.

The purpose of this forum is to put forward members opinions and experiences, certainly not to be attempting any armchair diagnosis or treatments or trumpeting the virtues of a particular vet, farrier or anyone else.

Very often early intervention by the owner can prevent an acute attack and all the pain and suffering which goes with it, but this of course cannot happen if the owner is not clued up about one of the most serious diseases a horse can suffer from, often fatally.
 
I agree with Pale Rider inthat conventional treatment doesnt always work for all horses - In my big mares case she was nigh on impossible to stable, and so was put on small paddock turnout (15x15ft) with her side of the shelter attached.
She did do 2 weeks complete box rest, but she was in a 15x20 box on half a bed so that she had different surfaces to walk on, and was kept on sedalin for the initial few days as she was very stressed.
After those 2 weeks Mels went back into her paddock which was then extended slowly to include more grass.
She was padded for a week before she went on box rest (nappys and duct tape) and for 24 hours after she went on BR. She was sound and happy within 2 weeks and back grazing - very restricted obv - within a month.
My vet wanted to go the heartbar route but I decided to try and keep her unshod, and my farrier agreed, Im so lad I did as Im sure she recovered more quickly with an agressive lami trim and padding.
(Melly was diagnosed with 'Chronic lowgrade concussive laminitis)

My little mare came down with an attack over the course of a day, she was fine, sound and no pulses etc at 9am in the morning, at 4pm she was taking a very altered, short stride, raging pulses and trouble turning.
I put her on a deep bed and padded her feet immediately, and she went onto danilon and 24hr soaked hay. Within a week she was sound, and 3 weeks later she was fine and back out on restricted grazing. She too had an agressive lami trim and was padded as needed.
(Seren's lami was entirely my fault, I had let her have too much grass :( )
Im not recommending what I did with my girls as the best course of action, and with another horse in my care I may alter what treatment I give, but for thse 2 ponies, it worked and I - and they - are happy.
 
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