Laminitis because of going barefoot....

[The Snowman]

My pony has been confirmed as having stress/concussive laminitis, which the vet says has been caused by him going barefoot (from front shoes only). He now has major bruising on his soles which he was walking on, and after box rest will need xrays as she thinks there could be pedal bone rotation.

Bit of background on going barefoot: He has been barefoot for about 13 weeks, the first 10 weeks were without problems (at least i think!). He showed no sign of footiness or any discomfort... went on road hacks etc all fine. Come his first trim 3 weeks ago.. the day after i went for a road hack still all fine, then 2 days after he was tripping and didn't feel right on front right foot.. gave him bute and box rest, then after about a week i turned him back out in the field in the daytime, still sore on concrete but sound in field and surface, rode him for 2 days in the arena where he was fine, but then the 3rd day he was lame again in arena, with heat in front right leg.. box rest again, then just turnout, called vet out at this point and she diagnosed as above.

Just wondering if anyone has had any similar stories of going barefoot causing laminitis? Also I was wondering what the prognosis was for pedal bone rotation? I know it will depend on the individual but would be interested to hear other peoples stories and outcomes.

Sorry for the essay... hopefully all makes sense.. thanks for reading and getting this far!!

 

[JillA]

I would seriously doubt that - barefoot with a GOOD trimmer is the remedy not the cause usually. Is it possible he has a metabolic issue going on? Or deep bruising and poor quality soles - has he got bounding digital pulses? Read and ask here http://www.thelaminitissite.org/laminitis.html and on Facebook groups, or here http://www.hoofrehab.com/Articles.html

There are so many myths about laminitis even in the veterinary profession it really does pay to educate yourself.

 

[ycbm]

If he was fine until you had him trimmed then it sounds like the trim that was to blame, not the barefoot.

Who did the trim? Is it possible they took away sole callous and/or too much hoof wall, because either can make a horse bruise and both at the same time is very likely to.

Why is your vet diagnosing laminitis and not just bruised soles?

This is unfortunately not the first time we've had reports of trimmers/farrier laming sound horses with aggressive or incorrect trims.

Photos? Especially sole shots.

 

[vanrim]

Yes my mare got laminitis after going barefoot. It was the worst thing I ever did. It cost me a fortune in plastic shoes to get her right.

 

[FfionWinnie]

The bare bones appear to be he was fine until he was trimmed then he wasn't. That would be telling me something!

 

[Goldenstar]

I think it seems likely it was the trim but yes it's concussion driven lami which would not have happened if the horse was shod .
You need to get some X-rays it might not be as grim as the vet thinks .

 

[Puddleduck]

I would also suspect the trim as being behind the issue. My own horse is 12 weeks into BF transition and had his first proper trim 2 weeks ago. The trimmer said he would have liked to do more but decided we needed to work in stages. Even with that my horse was slightly slower and a tiny bit footy walking on a surface he crunched across before. That lasted a week and he's back to crunching now so I put it down to the trim giving him more frog pressure. Sounds like yours could have done too much for the stage yours is at. 13 weeks is still quite early in a transition from shoes.

Another issue could be spring grass and diet. The grass is starting to come through now and a number of people on the barefoot and cushings Facebook groups have commented on the affect it's having on their horses feet already.

 

[AdorableAlice]

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/foru...8-Don-t-under-estimate-the-grass-levels/page3

Yes, here is the link to the thread on the forum when I asked for help.

 

[JillA]

I think it seems likely it was the trim but yes it's concussion driven lami which would not have happened if the horse was shod .
You need to get some X-rays it might not be as grim as the vet thinks .

How exactly is concussion LESS if the horse is shod? I would say metal was more conducive to concussion than hoof. And usually the frog is off the ground which means the load is all on the walls, making for more sensitivity to concussion? I'm not a barefoot evangelist, happy to shoe if the need arises but that is counterintuitive to me.
I would be interested in how the vet diagnosed laminitis rather than bruising? X rays will reveal much, if the pedal bone has moved then yes, the laminae are implicated but I'm curious as to the mechanics, I thought stress laminitis was the result of something like cortisol over a period of time, such as a long difficult journey.

 

[Goldenstar]

the horse would not have had the unsuitable trim if it had not been BF .
It's one of the biggest problems with BF , it's very hard to get good trimmers or farriers to do the work .
Not only does can overtimming cause problems like OP's but it takes a good deal of knowledge and skill to make the right choices when looking at horses not wearing their feet into good lateral balance get that wrong and the horse is in real trouble .

 

[ycbm]

Not only does can overtimming cause problems like OP's but it takes a good deal of knowledge and skill to make the right choices when looking at horses not wearing their feet into good lateral balance get that wrong and the horse is in real trouble .

I reckon that the biggest problem with lateral balance in barefoot horses is when trimmers decide that horses don't know what their own balance should be, and trim the foot to look a conventional shape when the horse needs it otherwise.

I did a very interesting experiment when challenged by a Pro trimmer on HHO recently. I started trimming a horse of mine who has narrow heels, tiny frogs that never touch the floor in front, and 'long' toes. He ended up with some very, very pretty looking feet - and an action so close in front that I would have had to put overreach boots on to stop him cutting himself with his own feet.

 

[Goldenstar]

I reckon that the biggest problem with lateral balance in barefoot horses is when trimmers decide that horses don't know what their own balance should be, and trim the foot to look a conventional shape when the horse needs it otherwise.

I did a very interesting experiment when challenged by a Pro trimmer on HHO recently. I started trimming a horse of mine who has narrow heels, tiny frogs that never touch the floor in front, and 'long' toes. He ended up with some very, very pretty looking feet - and an action so close in front that I would have had to put overreach boots on to stop him cutting himself with his own feet.

I don't agree that horses who wear their feet into poor lateral balance should be left to it .
I always have X-rays of my horses feet I have a set from when they go BF the first time and we can then take a second look if they start wearing in a funky way .
We then adjust according to what we see in tiny increments so we don't do anything that can't grow back pretty quickly if it has a bad effect .
I view is there are no hard and fast rules with all this some horse grow a first set of very funky feet and then grow much more ' normal looking ' feet .
How ever judging is this poor lateral balance caused by the horse balancing its loading or because it wearing unevenly because it's loading to avoid discomfort on the other side is not an easy judgement and it takes imput from the horses Physio rider trainer vet and trimmer to make careful decisions about the best way forward .
I find the Physio a good help with this reading how the horse is using its muscles is a huge help .
That's the thing with all this it's very simple and complicated at the same time .
I also use foot X-rays to show the farriers what's going on when they shoe for me
A set a foot X-rays is IMO a good value for money investment in your horses soundness .

 

[JillA]

I think the point is you trim to accommodate the skeletal structures, not to what they look like externally, and to do that you have to have a really good understanding of how those structures work - or X rays

 

[The Snowman]

I would seriously doubt that - barefoot with a GOOD trimmer is the remedy not the cause usually. Is it possible he has a metabolic issue going on? Or deep bruising and poor quality soles - has he got bounding digital pulses? Read and ask here http://www.thelaminitissite.org/laminitis.html and on Facebook groups, or here http://www.hoofrehab.com/Articles.html

There are so many myths about laminitis even in the veterinary profession it really does pay to educate yourself.

Thanks for the links I will have a look at those and ask on FB and the laminitis page to see if they can offer any further advice. Not sure metabolic wise, he hasn't had any other problem previously..

He has bounding pulses, more in the main right front foot but strong pulses in both anyway.. He does have some big bruises which look like they run pretty deep, that's where the vet was worried about pedal bone rotation.

 

[The Snowman]

If he was fine until you had him trimmed then it sounds like the trim that was to blame, not the barefoot.

Who did the trim? Is it possible they took away sole callous and/or too much hoof wall, because either can make a horse bruise and both at the same time is very likely to.

Why is your vet diagnosing laminitis and not just bruised soles?

This is unfortunately not the first time we've had reports of trimmers/farrier laming sound horses with aggressive or incorrect trims.

Photos? Especially sole shots.

Yes I was thinking it is probably more likely something to do with the trim as afterwards he did look quite boxy and short in front, and of course had no problems before the trim..but obviously difficult to know what to do with the vet saying it's because he is barefoot and should definitely have shoes back on.

I had a registered farrier trim his feet, had looked for barefoot trimmer but couldn't find any in my local area (Warwickshire/Coventry). He is a good farrier and haven't had problems when shoes were on but of course I know it is pretty much a different ball game with barefoot trimming.

Vet didn't really say why she was diagnosing laminitis instead of bruised soles, she just checked his pulses, pared his sole to check the bruise, hoof tested and watched him walk/trot up.

I will see if i can get some photos later to post so you can see what's happening.

Thanks for your help

 

[stencilface]

I don't have our farrier to trim my horses feet, as although he does a non invasive job on the unworked ponies I know he wouldn't be able to stop himself trimming my boys frogs. And I can't face the argument! My trimmer is fab, even if he's never used a rasp in anger and has only seen mine once

 

[The Snowman]

I don't have our farrier to trim my horses feet, as although he does a non invasive job on the unworked ponies I know he wouldn't be able to stop himself trimming my boys frogs. And I can't face the argument! My trimmer is fab, even if he's never used a rasp in anger and has only seen mine once

Do you think or know of people that have barefoot horses that have farriers who do a good job of making sure the horse has the correct trim and management advice? I'm not sure whether I should think about seeing if I should find a barefoot trimmer to do him.

 

[ycbm]

Bruises also cause bounding pulses. Abscesses caused by to severe a trim also cause bounding pulses. I'm not saying your vet is wrong, but they have jumped to a laminitis diagnosis very quickly, I think.

Goldenstar, I don't have the money to spend on repeated foot x rays on sound horses who are straight moving and self trimming. Your boy is only out of shoes for a few months a year, isn't he? That isn't long enough for him to establish a balance for himself, so you are doing him a real favour to get the x rays.

I don't have the experience that other people have reported of foot shape preventing an injury from resolving itself. My own experience has been that as the horse resolves the injury/illness, the feet come straight again as a more gradual process than trimming. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that in two spavin, one locking stifle, one bent as a nine bob note hunter, one sore back TB, that I have had, and other stiff/damaged horses my friends have had, the feet sorted themselves out as the body came straight. My own experience, in general, is that nature knows best with horse's feet.

 

[SusieT]

Laminitis simply refers to inflammaiton of a laminiae- and certainly bruising will cause it - so if the pony was sore and brusied laminitis most definitely might occur - there is a perception in the barefoot world that being barefoot stops laminitis in its tracks - this is not correct! The vet is correct that the horse needs to not work on a bruised foot without protection or until it is healed.

 

[The Snowman]

Bruises also cause bounding pulses. Abscesses caused by to severe a trim also cause bounding pulses. I'm not saying your vet is wrong, but they have jumped to a laminitis diagnosis very quickly, I think.

Goldenstar, I don't have the money to spend on repeated foot x rays on sound horses who are straight moving and self trimming. Your boy is only out of shoes for a few months a year, isn't he? That isn't long enough for him to establish a balance for himself, so you are doing him a real favour to get the x rays.

I don't have the experience that other people have reported of foot shape preventing an injury from resolving itself. My own experience has been that as the horse resolves the injury/illness, the feet come straight again as a more gradual process than trimming. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that in two spavin, one locking stifle, one bent as a nine bob note hunter, one sore back TB, that I have had, and other stiff/damaged horses my friends have had, the feet sorted themselves out as the body came straight. My own experience, in general, is that nature knows best with horse's feet.

This may sound like a stupid question but I just don't know the answer - What or how can the vet absolutely say he has laminitis? In the sense of, how they can say for absolute certain that's what it is, how do they decide this instead of suggesting it is something different?

I would prefer to go natural as possible in terms of keeping him barefoot, but of course if he does need shoes then he would of course have shoes back on.. it's just difficult to know what is right or whats not!

 

[The Snowman]

Laminitis simply refers to inflammaiton of a laminiae- and certainly bruising will cause it - so if the pony was sore and brusied laminitis most definitely might occur - there is a perception in the barefoot world that being barefoot stops laminitis in its tracks - this is not correct! The vet is correct that the horse needs to not work on a bruised foot without protection or until it is healed.

Do you know how the vet would know for certain if he has laminitis? I know that being barefoot wouldn't stop him getting laminitis and he should be rested, but whether that can actually involve turnout, although vet has advised against it.

Just don't know what to do as it doesn't look like there is a straightcut answer on this, I know with horses simple answers never happen!

 

[JillA]

Have you noticed whether the farrier trims his soles when doing a barefoot trim? Mine did, repeatedly, despite being instructed not to, and my horse was very footsore after every trim. Now we have a GOOD bf trimmer (he is S B'ham, might come out your way if you ask, although he has a broken wrist now so is supervising a student in that area), and a mineral and protein balanced diet his soles are beautifully concave and solid, they ring like china when they are tapped with a hoof pick. AND he had laminitis, as a result of Cushings. I attribute his full recovery and current soundness to that trimmer, who is very experienced as he has horses in his family he has rehabbed, and The Laminitis Site's protocol.
A good hoof care professional of whichever persuasion NEVER trims soles - Pete Ramey says he would like a device which electrocutes them if they do lol

 

[The Snowman]

Have you noticed whether the farrier trims his soles when doing a barefoot trim? Mine did, repeatedly, despite being instructed not to, and my horse was very footsore after every trim. Now we have a GOOD bf trimmer (he is S B'ham, might come out your way if you ask, although he has a broken wrist now so is supervising a student in that area), and a mineral and protein balanced diet his soles are beautifully concave and solid, they ring like china when they are tapped with a hoof pick. AND he had laminitis, as a result of Cushings. I attribute his full recovery and current soundness to that trimmer, who is very experienced as he has horses in his family he has rehabbed, and The Laminitis Site's protocol

He has only had one barefoot trim so far, which is the one that straight after, we had all these problems. To be honest I couldn't tell you whether he had trimmed his soles or not, I was not able to be there when he was trimmed so had my friend there instead but she did say she wasn't with him when he was actually being trimmed so not sure. Do you have the details of the barefoot trimmer you use? Hopefully being South Birmingham it shouldn't be too far for him to come out to me possibly, worth a shot anyway!

 

[JillA]

I'll message it to you

 

[The Snowman]

I'll message it to you

Thank you

 

[Goldenstar]

Bruises also cause bounding pulses. Abscesses caused by to severe a trim also cause bounding pulses. I'm not saying your vet is wrong, but they have jumped to a laminitis diagnosis very quickly, I think.

Goldenstar, I don't have the money to spend on repeated foot x rays on sound horses who are straight moving and self trimming. Your boy is only out of shoes for a few months a year, isn't he? That isn't long enough for him to establish a balance for himself, so you are doing him a real favour to get the x rays.

I don't have the experience that other people have reported of foot shape preventing an injury from resolving itself. My own experience has been that as the horse resolves the injury/illness, the feet come straight again as a more gradual process than trimming. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, just that in two spavin, one locking stifle, one bent as a nine bob note hunter, one sore back TB, that I have had, and other stiff/damaged horses my friends have had, the feet sorted themselves out as the body came straight. My own experience, in general, is that nature knows best with horse's feet.

No sometimes I have horses out of shoes for years at a time it depends what I am using them for .
You see to me the fact the horse is sound now is not good enough I want him to sound in five or ten years time and allowing horses to work with lateral imbalance when you are not sure what going on inside is just too big a risk for me .its no different to a horse working in a unbalanced set of shoes .
I am very flexible person I don't follow one route for instance I have one going into a heartbar behind he suffered a terrible accident just about removed his foot and will be working in heartbars to hold his foot as still as possible

 

[LD&S]

Do you think or know of people that have barefoot horses that have farriers who do a good job of making sure the horse has the correct trim and management advice? I'm not sure whether I should think about seeing if I should find a barefoot trimmer to do him.

I use a farrier as does my friend,the horses are all BF, she changed from a well known BF trimmer in Kent as the job just wasn't being done properly, improvement in all feet, my gelding has never had shoes but the difference with this farrier is amazing.

 

[FfionWinnie]

Mine all self trim and have done for many years. Occasionally I rasp a bit off (a bit = a couple of mm) and sometimes like my in foal mare one will get trimmed by a farrier where necessary (rarely).

What I have never found is any issue with foot balance in anything I've owned which is self trimming. Their feet always look like they've just been beautifully trimmed by an expert (well, they have!). None have "ugly" feet they have nicely round matching tough feet with well developed frogs. I would say with complete confidence any professional looking at them would not be able to tell how their feet were as they are. Indeed vets regularly comment on their strong good feet.

I also keep them out 24/7 and feed ad lib forage. I don't have an arena so they don't work on a surface more than about once a week at most (with exception of my new horse who is transitioning and mainly working on a surface at the moment).

I believe this is the way towards long term soundness and health and will always strive for it with any horse I own.

 

[ycbm]

Laminitis simply refers to inflammaiton of a laminiae- and certainly bruising will cause it - so if the pony was sore and brusied laminitis most definitely might occur - there is a perception in the barefoot world that being barefoot stops laminitis in its tracks - this is not correct! The vet is correct that the horse needs to not work on a bruised foot without protection or until it is healed.

There is no such perception in the barefoot world! It is spotted earlier, is all. I have never seen anyone claiming that barefoot stops dietary or metabolic laminitis.

I have written several times about how I believe an improved blood supply to the foot means barefoot horses get dietary laminitis more quickly than shod ones with a restricted blood supply.

 

[ycbm]

No sometimes I have horses out of shoes for years at a time it depends what I am using them for .
You see to me the fact the horse is sound now is not good enough I want him to sound in five or ten years time and allowing horses to work with lateral imbalance when you are not sure what going on inside is just too big a risk for me .its no different to a horse working in a unbalanced set of shoes .
I am very flexible person I don't follow one route for instance I have one going into a heartbar behind he suffered a terrible accident just about removed his foot and will be working in heartbars to hold his foot as still as possible

What are you balancing to, though? You may be creating the perfect balance in the foot, but unless every joint in the horses skeleton above that foot is perfect, that may not be the optimum foot balance for that leg.

I have the same objective as you. Soundness for life, not just for now.