Laminitis going barefoot?

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atfs123

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Another help post from me I'm afraid :o

I posted a while ago about the fact my pony had laminitis caused by Cushings, it seems to just be in one hoof *touch wood* as he's sound on the others. The lameness is hardly evident in a straight line, but quite evident on a turn. We had x rays which showed no movement of the pedal bone and vet suggested heart bars or gel pads and having heard good things we went for gel pads. Several times (once before the gel pads were fitted, a a couple of times after the gel pads) he's looked sound so we've started walking him on a soft surface (rubber and sand menage) but then he's gone sore again. The vet said if this happened again we'd xray again and try something else, and I've been seriously considering barefoot. I don't know if going barefoot during a bout of laminitis is a good idea but have read some good things about it, and am tempted because I'd be able to see what was going on a bit more, if that makes sense.

He's had shoes on all four feet for the 8 or so years we've had him, but as far as I know his feet are quite hard and we did think of trying barefoot in the past. I thought if I bought some hoof boots for walking him outside the stable/ menage that might help as he has to walk over stones. Basically I'm posting to see if anyone has any thoughts, in terms of a horse with laminitis going barefoot/ feeding a barefoot horse or anything else for that matter, as I know very little about it :o

He's currently on one Prascend a day (went down to a half then went lame again so put it back up on vet's advice) Hi-Fi lite and Codlivine, though not a lot of that because he doesn't like the taste so I'm trying to decide on a new supplement :)

Many thanks in advance for any help :o
 
Yes barefoot can work for laminitics, I have one pony currently barefoot he is trimmed every 4 weeks to keep the heels down and the toe short, my farrier is keen to keep him without shoes and it is getting better.
The other pony is a 32 yr old with cushings, he does not get laminitis although it is a risk with the condition, due to problems getting his farrier [livery owners farrier not mine] I got so fed up with being messed about and the pony losing shoes, that after discussion with my farrier we decided to take his shoes off 6 weeks ago. He has been shod for 28 years so it was a risk but he is sound, a little footy on stones but better than when he had shoes left on for too long. This pony is in light work, on a surface or grass and hopefully will continue to do well.
So I would say give it a go their feet will adjust if you can also get the diet/medication right.
 
Laminitics are often better without shoes. The shoes restricts the foot's capacity to expand and contract, the frog is not able to function properly and circulation is compromised. If circulation is compromised the dying cells are not taken away by the blood stream effectively, toxicity results which is especially critical in areas with restricted blood flow and tiny capillaries - ie the foot - hence laminitis.
 
Yes, it can be of huge benefit to go barefoot. You can dynamically trim when required to remove levering forces more easily and also you'll get early warning in future before it becomes acute. You will be better supporting P3 through the sole rather than just around the wall.

You need a really good professional to trim (farrier or trimmer - whoever you have who's good) and fit boots for you. Whether pads are needed will be another question for them.

But THE MOST important thing will be the diet. Barefoot's success or failure is met in the diet. Your horse will need a low sugar diet with lots of minerals.

I'd also stay away from alfalfa (just one of my 'things').

You need to have the will to change what may need changing (for advice, this is where a trimmer will come in handy) and stick to it.

I know of a decent supplement if you don't have a forage analysis to fall back on.
 
I'm 2 months down the line with a pony who had laminitis following colic surgery and a long course of antibiotics.

She's always been unshod, and I wouldn't have it any other way. It is just appalling to think of the number of horses/ponies who are condemned to a life shut in a stable with shoes on and little chance of recovery. Sorry to sound like I'm ranting there, but it IS appalling.

I was thinking yesterday it is absolutely appalling that some horses would still be incarcerated in their stable at that stage, unable to move, when my girl has a large stable and yard to choose to move around at her own speed, plus with hoof boots she is now walking 3 miles a day, and in 8 weeks she has grown down an inch of good connected hoof wall. I strongly believe the movement has enhanced her circulation, which has helped the growth come through quickly, and the growth is only connected because I've been able to keep the feet trimmed well back to avoid leverage forces. It isn't rocket science.

Yes, in the early days the horse isn't going to want to move, but beyond those first few days, movement is going to be essential to help the horse to heal.

I mean why would anyone restrict movement and put something on a horse's foot which restricts circulation and movement? How can the body possibly bring about healing if we're setting things up that the feet get virtually no stimulation and very little movement of blood through them to remove toxins and bring good stuff in instead?

Another good thing about having them unshod is you are aware much sooner if they are getting more uncomfortable, so are able to take action sooner to avoid another acute attack of laminitis.

Also, much easier to keep the toes rasped back to help the new good hoof grow in better, rather than the foot getting pulled forward over the weeks that a shoe is on there.

I also don't understand why anyone thinks that heart bar shoes "support" the foot in any way. On day one when a horse is shod, then yes, the shoe may well fit the foot, but beyond that, every day that the hoof wall grows down, the heartbar moves further from the frog, and there is effectively a gap between shoe and frog which the foot can sink into. Definitely not what I'd choose.

Well worth asking either a reputable farrier with a good history of success with laminitics (ie horses who have come back into full athletic function) or a reputable barefoot trimmer to come and give their opinions, so you can decide a way forward.

Take a look at Pete Ramey's barefoot rehab website too. There are plenty others around, but that's a good starting place. So much is possible, and yet so few owners seem aware of it, and it's the horses that suffer in the meantime.

Good on you for considering a different way.

Sarah
 
Oh, I forgot to say but there is quite a variety of hoof boots around now. If you don't know anyone who uses them, then your best starting point may be a trimmer who is keen on their use. They will be able to suggest what type of boots may suit your horse best, as the fit does vary.

If I was choosing hoof boots purely for ease of use in rehabbing a laminitic, then I think I would try the easyboot trails http://www.easycareinc.com/ as they look very easy to put on and take off.

As it is, I have boas and old mac G2's, which I really bought for riding on stoney tracks, but they are proving invaluable at the moment. However, in the early days my girl was too uncomfortable to lift her hind feet for long enough for me to put the boas on, and that's where the trails would have been so much quicker and easier. But it all depends on whether the style/shape/size of boot suits your particular horse.

Sarah
 
Oberon said:
But THE MOST important thing will be the diet. Barefoot's success or failure is met in the diet. Your horse will need a low sugar diet with lots of minerals.
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I wholeheartedly agree with this. The link to ECIRHORSE.com doesn't seem to be working sadly... domain name expired. :( There is an emergency diet which covers the basics in diet.
I'd join this group for dietry advice and access to the details of the recommended emergency diet. http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/EquineCushings/
There are pads to use in boots if required and pads for support and comfort that can be taped on with duck tape. Trimmer/farrier should be able to advise which may be suitable. http://www.equinepodiatrysupplies.co.uk/Pads/

Mta. To be blunt, I would get a professional who is experienced (and successful) in rehabilitating horses with laminitis barefoot for on the spot advice and support. Be aware that you must follow any advice to the letter, imo there's no room for thinking... "oh one day wont matter or one little treat can't harm".
 
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Best thing I ever did. It's hard work but I can catch it so much easier now before it gets to the point of no return. I use old mac originals an they are fab
 
Thank you for your help all, am investigating various links now and have joined the cushings group. I think what I'd struggle with most it diet, there seem to be so many different supplements and things out there and I worry about changing his feed when he's been on the same thing for several years, but I'm willing to do anything neccesary. I'd be interested in any dietary advice/ supplement suggestions please :) unfortunately we don't really have the option of forage analysis, we're at a biggish yard where the hay can vary quite a lot, but we always soak and rinse it. Someone suggested a chaf with less or no alfalfa on another thread I made but I can't seem to find it now, I should've bookmarked it >.<

We've had the same farrier for eight years and until now the pony has had no lameness, I know he also trims barefoot horses and think I would be inclined to stick with him, silly question but does it seem like a good idea to stick with a trusted farrier or should I be seeking out someone who trims and works with barefoot horses exclusively? :o

I like the look of the Easyboots, or at least the easyboot pads in one of the other types of boot. I'll discuss the type of support he'd need with the vet and the farrier but I'm hoping (pending more xrays to see if there's any movement) that he'd just need something to cushion his foot a bit whilst he got used to being barefoot or to protect his foot when walking on a rough surface between stable and menage.

Thank you again for the help :)
 
We have 12mm pads in the original macs.

A for the farrier - have a look at functional barefeet and see how he trims. You want the frog left alone and the sole. Foot shouldn't look ready to take a shoe basically.

As for diet - low sugar low starch - unmollased chaff like mollichaff high fibre or kwik beet or speedibeet. And a good multivit such as global herbs globavite or equone answers 365 or naf slimline Or you can make up your own (seaweed, rose hips, magnesium and linseed and maybe brewers yeast are good starting points).

Generally I prefer a simple base feed as a carrier for vits and mins. Less junk and fillers in it, less calories an often cheaper than a ready made mix.
 
The only way you can really answer the question about farrier v trimmer is to read and read and read so you know what good hoof balance and hoof function looks and feels like, and then look at his work. You need to know a good trim, otherwise swapping professionals is just a lottery.
 
I have my Cushing sufferer/ex laminitic pony barefoot - i have a pair of GMac boots which he wears when ridden, walked from stable to field. I also tried gel pads, heart bars etc and he didnt fare too well with them. Now he is 100% sound and able to be exercised.
 
The farrier is very keen on leaving the frog alone and never really seems to touch the sole either which is one of the reasons we were keen to stay with him, there are a couple of barefoot horses at the yard which he trims and I've never known them to be lame or sore.

Looking at boots I like the sound of Old Macs or Cavallos with the softer pads in, have gotten in touch with vet and will get in touch with farrier to see what they think and discuss what might be best.

I like the idea of the simple base feed as a carrier for vits and mins, always feel a bit overwhelmed by all the different things some feeds seem to have in so would like to keep it simple ish and know exactly what I'm feeding :)
 
Nothing to add on the barefoot thing, but just wanted to wish you good luck!

My mare went down with concussive lami last year in only one of her forelegs, i went down the imprint shoes followed by heart bar shoes - which she is still in today and it happy as larry, retired, sound and comfortable.
 
As a referral farrier I can thoroughly recommend that you stay with the farrier you have.
I find that working with the farrier the owner has is far more rewarding than starting with someone new.
My practice is now 99% barefoot and all my laminitic referrals are barefoot, I believe it is without doubt it is the best way to go.
You must have a team that is united in what they are doing, I often get vet and farrier together to go through the treatment that we are all going to work on, this way the owner knows that everyone is on the same track and that the best is being done for the animal
 
moorman said:
As a referral farrier I can thoroughly recommend that you stay with the farrier you have.
I find that working with the farrier the owner has is far more rewarding than starting with someone new.
My practice is now 99% barefoot and all my laminitic referrals are barefoot, I believe it is without doubt it is the best way to go.
You must have a team that is united in what they are doing, I often get vet and farrier together to go through the treatment that we are all going to work on, this way the owner knows that everyone is on the same track and that the best is being done for the animal
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Yes, if the farrier is supportive of barefoot.

Good go hear about your practice and belief. :)
 
moorman said:
As a referral farrier I can thoroughly recommend that you stay with the farrier you have.
I find that working with the farrier the owner has is far more rewarding than starting with someone new.
My practice is now 99% barefoot and all my laminitic referrals are barefoot, I believe it is without doubt it is the best way to go.
You must have a team that is united in what they are doing, I often get vet and farrier together to go through the treatment that we are all going to work on, this way the owner knows that everyone is on the same track and that the best is being done for the animal
Click to expand...

Moorman you'll be a huge asset to this board if you have the time to stay with us. A farrier whose clients are 99% barefoot - wonderful :)


ps you must have some "interesting" conversations with farriers who hate the "barefoot fanatics" (I'm one! fanatic, not farrier :) )
 
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I am more than happy to help where I can but owners must realise that at the head of each team must be a vet that is willing to get people around them who's sole purpose is the wellbeing of the horse.
I do allot of team building all over the place and it inevitably leads to a happy horse / owner.
By the way: someone has sent me a message that for some reason I can not open.
 
Thank you all for your contributions :)

I've been doing lots of reading about vit and min supplements (and becoming very confused in the process >.<) and I think I've narrowed it down to either Global Herbs Globalvite or Dengie natural vitality leisure vits and mins or D&H daily vits and mins leaning towards the latter two. I've looked at laminitis specific feeds too but think I'd just like to get him onto a broad spec vit and min supplement for now, preferably asap as he's decided he doesn't want to eat the Codlivine at all now :o Any thoughts on the suitability of those supplements for laminitics would be greatly appreciated, will ask the vet too :)
 
i would be a little careful with Safe and Sound, I think it still has sugars and starch in that may be too high if fed at the right levels for vit/mins. Farriers Formula is another one to consider, it has good levels in and can be used with a chaff as a balanced diet.
 
Please be very careful about any additives that you give to a laminitic, sudden change is one thing you do not need in any equine gut.
I always advise clients to see what and why additives are needed.
If the horse is not getting something in its food then try if possible to acquire it in the most basic form possible.
When it is commercially mixed (often to make it palatable) you can be feeding things that are not needed.
If in doubt get good sound advise from an INDEPENDENT nutritional expert
 
Independent does not include the Laminitis Trust, who take money from feed suppliers to be allowed to use their logo on bags of feed which are anything up to TEN percent sugar. For many laminitics, that level would be very unsafe.

There are vets who are not happy with the advice given by the Laminitis Trust, they are not the be all and end all of expertise in laminitis management. They support the use of heart bar shoes and sometimes prescribe dorsal wall resection, for example, when there is an increasing body of opionion that neither practice is the best solution for most of the horses being treated with them.
 
Thanks all, I admit I have been a bit worried about feeding supplements etc when I don't know exactly what's in them, having read your posts along with other things online I'm going to stick with the feed he's having until I can speak to the vet/ find an independent nutritionalist. I only want to introduce something else because I understand he needs more vits + mins than his hay and chaff provide especially because he'll hopefully be going barefoot, but I want to make sure the thing I introduce is the right thing :)
 
atfs123 said:
Thank you for your help all, am investigating various links now and have joined the cushings group. I think what I'd struggle with most it diet, there seem to be so many different supplements and things out there and I worry about changing his feed when he's been on the same thing for several years, but I'm willing to do anything neccesary. I'd be interested in any dietary advice/ supplement suggestions please :) unfortunately we don't really have the option of forage analysis, we're at a biggish yard where the hay can vary quite a lot, but we always soak and rinse it. Someone suggested a chaf with less or no alfalfa on another thread I made but I can't seem to find it now, I should've bookmarked it >.<

We've had the same farrier for eight years and until now the pony has had no lameness, I know he also trims barefoot horses and think I would be inclined to stick with him, silly question but does it seem like a good idea to stick with a trusted farrier or should I be seeking out someone who trims and works with barefoot horses exclusively? :o

I like the look of the Easyboots, or at least the easyboot pads in one of the other types of boot. I'll discuss the type of support he'd need with the vet and the farrier but I'm hoping (pending more xrays to see if there's any movement) that he'd just need something to cushion his foot a bit whilst he got used to being barefoot or to protect his foot when walking on a rough surface between stable and menage.

Thank you again for the help :)
Click to expand...

Hi there, my daughters pony had laminitus about 3 years ago with 10 degree rotation in both front feet, after the initial treatment from the vet with the pain killers and anti inflammatory treatment at the initial stages we put her in a small paddock with minimal grass and a small slice of year old hay twice a day, the only other supplement we used was magnesium powder once a day (but you can add this to a water tank), we also used Easy boots as the mare has never been shod and the blacksmith didn't seem to think she needed shoes as she did not do enough work to warrant them and her hooves were of a good quality horn.... When she came back into work after about 8 months we continued to monitor her feet very carefully with 6 week trimming and she would wear boots whenever she went out as was a little footy on hard or lumpy ground.....

I am happy to say that she has lost weight and is as sound as a pound and when turned out in a new field on sunday could be seen galloping at full speed from the top to the bottom of the field which I believe no foot sore pony would have attempted... We also have not needed to use the boots this year as she has been sound on hard ground too...

I hope this helps as this regime certainly worked with this little mare....

cheers...
 
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