Laminitis Misdiagnosis

[Mrs. Jingle]

I am not sure why people are so sure the vet is wrong .

I dont think people on here are saying he is wrong, just OP's other 'experts' - I think the rest of us are just questioning his instructiosn to virtually starve the poor animal.

OP - last time my donkey had a bout of lammi - neither my vet, myself or my farrier could feel pulses until several days later.......he did not react to hoof testers either but did one week later. My vet arranged to come back again a few days after initial consultation because this can often happen at the outset of lammi. If it is not lammi - there are several conditions were a horse will show marked lameness on a very soft surface (the menage) and appear sound on a hard surface.

You seem to be resisting any suggestions your horse has a health issue of any sort - please don't do this it is not responsible care of your horse As others have suggested do arrange for another vet to have a look for you.

 

[Spacejet]

Thanks for all your suggestions.
I am not resistant to my horse having health issues, if anything I have been trying hard to find something wrong with him to explain his behaviour change and I was slightly saddened when nothing came from bloods or any other checks. I honestly wanted something to be up with him so I could fix it.
I have already said I am working on the fat pads by increasing exercise, feeding ad lib but in small holed nets and I am going to clip his bib out again to help with weight loss. Already cut his hard feed.
He's currently out in a mud paddock during the day with a buddy where they get hay, there's no grass in the paddock it's just dirt.
He then comes in at night to hay.
He's exercised 4/5 days a week only hacking at the moment but involves trot and canter work if ground allows.

I don't understand why I'm being shot down again for using other people's views, surely if my horse was bucking me off I'd be told to get a back person out, saddler and the vet, why is this any different? Because I am trusting their views over a vets whose told me to starve my horse?

I've already said I'm getting another vets opinion.

Thanks for all of the constructive comments.

 

[ester]

The reason I asked what the bloods were taken for was whether PPID/EMS was included in that plan...

Also what balancer are you feeding? Does it have sufficient Magnesium - the interplay between magnesium and fat pads is well documented (and I've found to be significant too)

 

[Spacejet]

The reason I asked what the bloods were taken for was whether PPID/EMS was included in that plan...

No I don't think so his bloods were taken for the usual checks, what do they usually check? I have his results so could check.
Id of thought he was too young to have EMS, but could request new vet to check? Previous vet didn't mention it or request x-rays ?

 

[ester]

There is no 'too young' age for EMS or PPID. Both would require specialist tests not a basic blood panel.

Sorry I was too slow for my edit on magnesium above.

 

[Spacejet]

There is no 'too young' age for EMS or PPID. Both would require specialist tests not a basic blood panel.

Sorry I was too slow for my edit on magnesium above.

No worries - I'll speak to the new vet about this too and have further bloods done. Thank you ?

 

[scats]

You can’t treat a horse slim you have to get into calorie deficit and keep it there to get it slim .
Op does not say where her horse is during the day .
She does not say how big her pony is .
she does not say what advice she was given about exercise and bedding .
The vet has the advantage of having seeing the pony .
I am not sure why people are so sure the vet is wrong .

I don’t think people are saying the vet is wrong. I’d probably be inclined to agree that it may be laminitis, as the vet has said, but I do think that starving a horse, particularly an overweight one, is very old fashioned advice and would make me very wary of any vet suggesting that. Having had a native pony develop hyperlipemia after colic surgery (he went into self-starvation) I can say that it’s not a situation I would ever want to potentially put a horse in.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Starving a laminitic horse is outdated advice. Gradual weight loss is now recommended if appropriate. I can certainly remember being advised to starve a horse 30+ years ago, but as scats posted above, it is now realised that starving can lead to the potentially fatal condition hyperlipemia so it is no longer considered to be good practice.

OP, so what were the bloods tested for by the first vet? You said you have the results...

If laminitis has been suspected, X rays should be taken a week or so later to check for rotation. The horse should be kept in on a deep shavings bed and if necessary with frog supports til then.

 

[Spacejet]

OP, so what were the bloods tested for by the first vet? You said you have the results...

The bloods were just general basic bloods to make sure nothing was going on. I've tried attaching them but not working..
Bloods tested:
Total protein, Albumin, Globulin, Serum Iron, Serum Amyloid A, AST, GGT, CK, AP, Urea, Creatine, RBC, PCV, hB, MCV, MCHC, MCH, WBC, Neutrophils, Lymphocytes, Monocytes, Eosinophils and Platelets.
All came back within normal range

 

[Milliemuncher]

My 11 yr old Connie gelding has been abit miserable lately and not wanting to go forward in the arena, but seems happy enough hacking.
Had bodyworker out who said there's nothing physically wrong with him from what she can see, he might be abit uncomfortable in his gut so he's had two rounds of peptonil from Trinity Consultants as well as a liver detox and feed hay in the field.
He's perked up hacking, but still doesn't want to go in the school, so decide to call vet to get bloods done and have another check over.
Instantly sees he's barefoot and 'very fat' (you can feel the last half of his ribs but he holds on to fat packs on his shoulder and crest). Watched him walk said he was shuffling and he's sore, diagnosed with Lami there and then and told to starve him all day and only 4 kilos of a hay at night. No hard feed not even balancer!
Few days later EP came to do his feet, said there's absolutely nothing wrong with his feet he will happily trot over stony tracks he does not Lami, this was then backed up the following day by body worker who said again there's nothing wrong with him, he's not very fat he could lose a few kilos before spring but she's not worried about him.
Bloods also came back fine but vets still adamant he's got Lami.
I haven't had my bill yet, but I'm honestly so frustrated at the vets diagnosis. Lami is not something you want to here and sends panic through me. I'm also distraught that the advice was to starve my horse that id just worked hard on clearing his gut up for two months, that's one hell of a way to give my horse ulcers (probably what they're wanting anyway) ..
Can I disbute my vet bill on the basis of incorrect diagnosis? I've never done this before but I feel like they've taken one quick look and immediately said Lami when actually, we think he's just school sour as he's fine on hacks!

As an owner of a laminated pony I am appalled at your vet instructions to starve your horse, if the root of your horse is laminitis was gut related the last thing they should suggest is to keep the guts empty, they would be much better off testing your horse for equine metabolic syndrome given the fact you said they’re fat pads evident, it’s best that your horse is barefoot as shoes only mask any laminitis, ask for an EMS test

 

[ycbm]

As an owner of a laminated pony

Best autocorrect error ever ?

Sorry about your pony MM, I agree with you about the bad advice.

 

[Goldenstar]

giving a pony four kilos of hay over night is not starving it .
the current research shows that horses produce less stomach acid at night so it’s a good time for their forage to be restricted
It’s mad to give horses who are fat add Lib hay during turnout they won’t lose weight
they can wonder around looking for bits and pieces to nibble on .
As the owner of three ID’s I know how much you need to restrict good doer types to fat off even when they are hunting I am double netting with small holes nets and restricting intake .
its been a mild mild winter and I have had to work harder to get weight down .
Products like top chop zero have a good roll to play in managing horses like OP is dealing with .
but giving double netted ad Lib is unlikely to help enough to get weight down .
I don’t understand why the horse is being exercised and turned out if it has laminitis

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

giving a pony four kilos of hay over night is not starving it

Perhaps I misunderstood OP but the impression I got is that her vet instructed her that the horse was to be given ONLY 4kgs at night time and no other food or forage at anytime. If that is what her vet told her then I disagree very strongly with you - that IS starving a horse and it IS causing it to go for many, many hours without any feed into its stomach and that is not good for any horse with or without suspected stomach ulcers or laminitis.

 

[Spacejet]

Yes correct starvation paddock for the day and only 4 kilos of soaked hay at night.
Horse is being turned out and ridden as he's not lame or footsore. If he was I'd change immediately but my priority at the moment is getting weight off my sound pony.

 

[Goldenstar]

then I would feed hay as advised and add some top chop zero in small amounts and see how you get on watch the droppings that’s what really lets you know what’s going on .
How big is the pony .

 

[Spacejet]

He's a 14.2hh Connemara. What changes should I look for in his droppings? Loose or dry?

 

[Goldenstar]

Getting smaller and harder this will happen if you have them on a strict diet .
looking at the dropping should also tell you if the paddock is truly bare
if the pony drinks well you might give him some epsom salts ( magnesium sulphate ) I never put this in the water I give it in a little bran ( small amounts of bran wet is also something I give to horses on diets if they are adults ) .
Dont give Epsom salts if he’s not good at drinking water it draws water to the bowel and helps to keep everything moving .
i don’t stop mineral and vit supplements .
i know the vet said no supplementary feed but I would give top chop zero introduce gradually as it make them colic if they eat too much and I would give a powdered basic vit and min supplement .

 

[TheMule]

Yes correct starvation paddock for the day and only 4 kilos of soaked hay at night.
Horse is being turned out and ridden as he's not lame or footsore. If he was I'd change immediately but my priority at the moment is getting weight off my sound pony.

Telling an owner to turn out in a starvation paddock during the day is NOT the same thing as telling them to starve the pony. A starvation paddock is one with very little grass so as to limit their intake, but that's not the same as depriving them of food completely.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

Same as Mule said - a starvation paddock is just a name - not an intent to starve! My donkeys live on a starvation paddock in the summer months - believe me they are not starved from May to October. I am stepping away from this thread now because to be honest, the information is being trickled fed to us and it makes it very difficult to give helpful and accurate input.

And I don't think OP should be listening to random strangers on forums advice in preference to a qualified vet who probably knows the true facts when we very obviously do not.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I’m out, too.

 

[Spacejet]

Well thanks for all your inputs, apologies if it feels like I have drip fed information not my intention. The paddock he's in is just mud, there's zero grass it's churned up, he's out for 12 hours, so yes he'd be starved. The vet said 'put him in the field with no hay so he comes in hungry. He'll be angry with you because he hasn't eaten in 12 hours but you've got to keep at it'. That's why I said starve him during the day, I wasn't twisting anything.
I'd understand it in summer where there is actual grass and growth.. he was out in the field for 12 hours previously with no hay which is when he started getting gut issues, he'd come in very tucked up and angry, literally charge through me for food.
Again I'm asking a different vet for another opinion, apologies again if you all think I've been trying to trick you by misinforming? This seems to be a very sensitive subject, I wish I could prevent further discussion on this thread but unfortunately I can't do anything.

Thanks again for all your inputs, it's just nice getting other view points on these things.

 

[Gloi]

100% get the pony's bloods tested for PPID and EMS.

 

[scats]

Ah ok, when you said ‘starve’ I didn’t realise you meant starvation paddock. I thought the vet had advised box rest and the horse was to stand with nothing until nightime when it would get 4kgs. That’s why I was surprised by that advice.

 

[Goldenstar]

My paddock looks like a herd of pigs has been on it it’s hideous .
but there’s something in there I know that because I can see it in the horses droppings and grass definitely started to grow in the last warm spell and I am know how much or as I should really say how little forage they are getting and the work they are doing.
if horses are wondering around picking at bits and pieces they will be fine they don’t need to be stuffing their faces .
I put hay in my field during the day last year it was a disaster everyone got too fat even the ones living out .
Being fat is far worse for a horse than the risk of diet induced ulcers .
Horses weight can creep up year to year it sneaks up as horses age .

 

[Goldenstar]

duplicate sorry

 

[holeymoley]

I’ve not read all the replies but fat pads and crest aren’t good, you want to get rid and not by starving. Did the vet at least use hoof testers?

 

[Orangehorse]

Did the vet check for Cushings? That's the first thing I'd do. The pony is unsound, something must be causing it. The fact that he is barefoot is good in that you can catch it early.

 

[ester]

Did the vet check for Cushings? That's the first thing I'd do. The pony is unsound, something must be causing it. The fact that he is barefoot is good in that you can catch it early.

Op has said not, just basic blood panel

 

[Goldenstar]

They should probably do that , has OP said how old the pony is I can’t remember.

 

[ester]

OP has also said she will bring it up with different vet (+EMS). Do people only skim read threads?